30x30 unattached metal building electrical questions

[nine4gmc]

Hi guys, I have a few questions and instead of cluttering up anyone else thread, I decided to start this one. We just moved in the house and it came with a shop out back, details below.

The building is a standard 30x30 metal building on concrete slab with a 60a feed coming from the house panel to a 12-16 sub panel in the shop. There are only 3 wires in the feeder and the sub panel is NOT grounded, nor does it have a ground bar in it for ground wires to connect. There is no ground rod outside the shop either. Also, none of the outlets or switches are grounded, what do I need to do at this point?

It was suggested by another member that I change out the 12-16 box first. I have an 8-16 sub panel that I used as a sub panel at my other shop, would that be a good choice here or should I look for a different kind of breaker panel?

I may want to eventually have the electric company run a meter pan to the shop so I can have more than 60a but I doubt it will be this year, possibly next year. Should I go with a 200a panel as a sub panel for now, since I may decide to go with full 200a service in the future?

I have a couple more questions but want to hash these out first before I go any farther. TIA

 

[ACDNate]

Not an electrician but if it were me I'd install a ground bar in the panel on the shop and tie it to a standard 8' ground bar within a few feet from the box.

 

[nine4gmc]

Thanks Nate. Will I need a ground wire from the house as well or will the ground rod at the building be okay alone? I can put the ground rod at the building right outside the wall where the sub panel is located so it would only need a 6' wire or so to reach down to it. What size wire should I use and do I need to ground the sub panel or ground rod to the metal building with a wire too? The sub panel is mounted to a vertical beam with metal standoff brackets.

 

[gymbo39]

yes you need the ground from the main panel to your sub. The ground wire will need its own bar within the panel insulated from the common bar. Then you need two ground rods outside the shop as well six feet apart.

 

[nine4gmc]

Well that *****, the wire is buried and no room in the conduit to pull another wire through. I can easily add the two rods outside the building but the wire from the house is going to be an issue.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

For many years the code did not require four wire feed to a detached building, three wire was sufficient. I assume your wiring is old. It is not necessary to run a ground from the house, so long as the neutral at the house is properly connected and grounded there. I would add two ground rods and connect them to the ground bar in your shop panel with #6 solid copper wire.

 

[nine4gmc]

Thanks Charles! I will check that the neutral is connected properly at the house and add the ground rods to the building this weekend. Any recommendations on the sub panel, should I swap the 12-16 for the 8-16 or just find a 200a panel for future expansion?

 

[nine4gmc]

OK, after closer inspection, the feeder wire DOES have a ground included. The feeder is 6/3 with ground. The ground wire is connected to the neutral bar, along with the neutral wire inside the sub panel. Do I leave it there or should I have a separate ground bar inside the sub panel?

 

[CoopVA]

The neutral in the sub panel should be isolated from the ground.

 

[MrMark]

the ground buss must be separated from the neutral buss at any subpanel. The only place the grounds are tied to neutral is at service equipment. We don't want neutral current to split and flow on the equipment ground from your subpanel back to the service equipment.

 

[nine4gmc]

What about inside the house? I have not pulled the cover inside the house yet so IDK if it is wired together or isolated. There is another recent thread here mentioning grounds being tied together but that was the FIRST time I have heard of that and it blew my mind.

Thanks CoopVA!

 

[CoopVA]

You're welcome.

The neutral should be bonded (attached to the ground bar) inside the house. Odds are that it is. But I would check.

 

[nine4gmc]

Thanks CoopVA and MrMark! I'll pop the house panel off tomorrow and give it a look. I had no idea they were supposed to be connected(bonded) anywhere.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hi guys, I have a few questions and instead of cluttering up anyone else thread, I decided to start this one. We just moved in the house and it came with a shop out back, details below.

The building is a standard 30x30 metal building on concrete slab with a 60a feed coming from the house panel to a 12-16 sub panel in the shop. There are only 3 wires in the feeder and the sub panel is NOT grounded, nor does it have a ground bar in it for ground wires to connect. There is no ground rod outside the shop either. Also, none of the outlets or switches are grounded, what do I need to do at this point?

It was suggested by another member that I change out the 12-16 box first. I have an 8-16 sub panel that I used as a sub panel at my other shop, would that be a good choice here or should I look for a different kind of breaker panel?

I may want to eventually have the electric company run a meter pan to the shop so I can have more than 60a but I doubt it will be this year, possibly next year. Should I go with a 200a panel as a sub panel for now, since I may decide to go with full 200a service in the future?

I have a couple more questions but want to hash these out first before I go any farther. TIA

As has been said old 3-wire feeds were ok pre-2008 NEC code and are fine. Ground rods @ detached buildings have been required for along time. Pound 2 rods spaced 6' apart and connect to the neutral bar. Since you have a 3wire feed all the neutrals and grounds should land on the same bar and the neutral bar should NOT be insulated from the panel enclosure.

A side note. People get grounds aka EGCs and ground rods confused all the time. A grounding electrode such as a grounding rod is for grounding out lightning and has nothing to do with an EGC which is used to provide a low impedance fault path for high current to flow and cause the breaker to open/trip.

As far as the EGCs missing on the outlet and branch circuits go, u have 2 options. Either a) run new NM wire or b) code allows ground wires to be run separate from the circuit wires.

If u replace the panel, the feeder will need to be brought up to current code, aka 4-wire!

As far as the 200amp panel goes, you would have to purchase a meter pan and disconnect for the outside of the shop if u decide to put a dedicated circuit on the shop. Be aware that many PoCos charge 2nd service at higher rates!

Not an electrician but if it were me I'd install a ground bar in the panel on the shop and tie it to a standard 8' ground bar within a few feet from the box.

The ground bar isnt necessary. read my 1st paragraph above....

Thanks Nate. Will I need a ground wire from the house as well or will the ground rod at the building be okay alone? I can put the ground rod at the building right outside the wall where the sub panel is located so it would only need a 6' wire or so to reach down to it. What size wire should I use and do I need to ground the sub panel or ground rod to the metal building with a wire too? The sub panel is mounted to a vertical beam with metal standoff brackets.

As i said above, EGCs and rods are 2 different animals. U can use bare #6 cu without protection as long as it is out of the way of damage or #8 cu in conduit. 2 rods are required if u cant prove 25ohms or less of resistance to earth with the first rod. If this isnt being inspected then this is a moot point. The building steel should be bonded to the panel.

yes you need the ground from the main panel to your sub. The ground wire will need its own bar within the panel insulated from the common bar. Then you need two ground rods outside the shop as well six feet apart.

A separate ground wire cannot be run with the feeder. If he wants to add an EGC to the feeder he will have to pull a new feeder.

OK, after closer inspection, the feeder wire DOES have a ground included. The feeder is 6/3 with ground. The ground wire is connected to the neutral bar, along with the neutral wire inside the sub panel. Do I leave it there or should I have a separate ground bar inside the sub panel?

You most definitely should isolate the neutral bar from the enclosure, add a ground bar and move the grounds over to the round bar. This was done INCORRECTLY.

What about inside the house? I have not pulled the cover inside the house yet so IDK if it is wired together or isolated. There is another recent thread here mentioning grounds being tied together but that was the FIRST time I have heard of that and it blew my mind.

Thanks CoopVA!

Thanks CoopVA and MrMark! I'll pop the house panel off tomorrow and give it a look. I had no idea they were supposed to be connected(bonded) anywhere.

Neutral and grounds SHOULD be tied together in the main service panel and ONLY in the main service panel. Now whether the neutrals and grounds should be tied together in the house panel or not depends. Is the panel at the house the main panel? If u dont know, a main service panel will either a) have a meter pan and breakers in it, or b) the meter will be by itself outside with NO disconnect or main breaker and it feeds the house panel. If instead the house panel is connected to a panel with a meter and a breaker or disconnect, then NO the neutrals and grounds SHOULD NOT be bonded in the house panel because your main service panel has a disconnect and the house panel is considered a subpanel! Let us know if u cant figure it out and we can help. IF u have pics of all the panels, with covers on and off, that will help immensely!

 

[nine4gmc]

Ok, here is the outside meter panel, no breakers or disconnects. The feed is underground coming in to the bottom of the panel. There is a ground rod right next to the feeder conduit and the ground wire comes out of the brick next to it. Feels secure but I will have to look at it tomorrow when it's light out. Sorry for the crappy pic.

And here is the inside panel, the grounds and neutrals are tied together in this panel on the right hand side. The ground from the shop sub panel is NOT CONNECTED in this panel, you can see the short wire sticking up from the bottom left side unconnected.

Sub panel feed ground disconnected shown here, not enough wire to reach the neutral/ground bar on the right.

Here is the ground/neutral bar on right along with a cluster **** up top with a 12ga wire from a breaker tied in to a 12ga wire from the attic and one of the stove feeder wires(we have a gas stove so someone disconnected the two stove wires from the breaker and rigged some **** up.

Cover on.

This is the 12-16 sub panel in the shop, there are steel stand-offs that secure it to the vertical beam. Feeder comes in from the bottom left side. It's 6/3 WITH ground, the ground is the tiny blackish wire next to the large white wire. Both are tied in to the Neutral bar in this sub panel.

and with cover on

This is the extra 8-16 sub panel that I have and asked if I should replace the 12-16 above with this, or can I tie this in to the 12-16 and have both, OR should I find a 200a panel for future upgrades?

and with cover on.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sorry, just getting back to this.

The issue u will run into with the sub is when u will need a main disconnect. A main disconnect is required if u have more than 6 breaker handles. Also, u will need ground rods. The ground in the main panel should be connected to the neutral bar. This can be done with a wire nut and a short piece of wire. In the sub panel, u need to install a ground bar and move the bare ground wire over to the ground bar. Also make sure the neutral bar is isolated from the grounds and the panel enclosure!

 

[Aceman]

Looks like 6-3 Romex to me. Romex is not allowed outdoors, including underground in conduit.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

That one that is installed in the shop only holds 8 full width breakers. Are the stabs notched for tandems?

The newer GE panel has two 240v double pole breakers in it, the bottom ones on each side. Spotted by the fact that the two half width breakers are riveted together and only one of them has a GE symbol on it. They are dummy proof and cannot be incorrectly installed, will only go between the flat stabs, on the U shaped clips. They will not straddle a flat stab.

I would seriously be inclined to install the newer GE panel, You have a number of breakers in it, it has the ground bar and neutral bar, and has at least as many total spaces.

You will need a disconnect on the inside or outside of the detached shop. Since it is only 60 amp, go to the box store and find a 60amp rated air conditioner disconnect, the weather proof box you mount on the outside of your house to use on outside A/C units. It will work fine for a disconnect, and is only about $15. Try to find one with a real switch in it, not the pull out type. Square D makes one I know, with a switch in it that looks like a QO breaker but is only a switch.

Personally, since the 6-3 w/grd is already installed, Romex or not, I'd leave it till you have problems, then I'd consider upgrading.

As already noted, you need two ground rods at the detached shop. They are cheap. Buy the proper clamps to connect the wire, and buy some bare #6 solid wire to run from them to the panel ground bar. Drive them in with a sledge and leave extra in case you ever swap out the panel, you will have enough to reach. No splices permitted in the wire to the ground rods.

Also already noted by others, in the main panel in the house, just extend the #10 solid ground from the garage feed with a wirenut and connect it to the ground/neutral bars.

Not wanting to repeat what others have already posted, just want to reinforce it.

Charles

 

[nine4gmc]

Hey Charles, thanks for summing it up! I think I can handle those tasks this weekend. The box that's here has two double breakers in it for two 220v outlets. Each 220v outlet has two separate 110v outlets wired from it. I will remove that sub panel and put in the new one, I have a brand new pull out style disconnect for sure and possibly a switch style, could the pull out style be used temporarily until I can find the switch style? I will tie the ground in to the ground bar in the house and pick up two ground rods/clamps for the shop. I also have several feet of #6 copper so I can ground it with that.

Thanks for the help guys, I'll keep posting progress as I can and have questions about adding more outlets soon as well.