40x60 Red Barn Full HVAC Install

[nsula_country]

Went to barn/shop about 18:30. Turned AC on. Within 30 min had brought temp down 8 points. 83*-75* at the thermostat. 4 ceiling fans going at 19'.

Wi-Fi to barn (Ubiquiti) and an Emerson Sensi stat... Full control away from home. Sitting at desk at work, 16:30 set AC at 75* from my phone. 17:30 work in 75*. Leave, turn off. And reduced humidity.

Next test is get a humidity gauge and track.

No Regrets going forced air ducted vs mini-splits.

Condensate drain needs extended. It could water a garden.

CT

 

[Nlped]

I actually have my condensation line plumbed to a 150 gallon collection tank. We use that water on the garden. On a long hot 4-day weekend last August I made about 40 gallons at 76 degrees. I actually filled it up to the overflow a couple of times.


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[nsula_country]

Nlped,

I like the idea of capturing the condensate. Will have to come up with a cistern idea. I have some 55 gallon plastic drums.

With our humidity, we make a lot of condensate!

CT

 

[rattle_snake]

updates?

 

[nsula_country]

I have had 0 updates in the sense of Network, WiFi Thermostat, ect.

I can report out that I can turn it on at 17:30-18:00 in the evening and off around 21:00-22:00 and it is as low as 70* inside... From above 90*.



CT

 

[Rebird]

Very nice work and informative thread! Thanks for sharing the info

 

[nsula_country]

Very nice work and informative thread! Thanks for sharing the info

Thank you Rebird! It was quite a project to do solo.

I see you are also in Louisiana, you know how much we like our climate control. What part of the state are you in. I'm south of Shreveport.

CT

 

[Rebird]

Hey CT, i'm in lafayette. I'm in the process of adding a 2.5 ton unit in my shop for some relief from the heat and wanted some ideas..... your hvac turned out great, congrats!

 

[nsula_country]

Rebird,

Feel free to pick my brain if you need help laying out. I knew 5T was too small on paper, but anything larger was 3P which I don't have and did not want to add expense of a VFD.

It has performed above my expectations so far. But it hasn't been tested mid day August in Louisiana yet either!

Many people said I did not need ducts, just use a plenum and wide throw diffuser. I disagree. The even discharge of 8 registers maintains the same temperature from one end to other. Something to think about.

Thanks for stopping in. Plan to start working on projects again and posting on my project thread.

Good luck with your AC project. Keep us posted on your build.

CT

 

[MattT]

I knew 5T was too small on paper,

Did you run a load calc that called for more than 5 tons? You're right in the middle of the old "rule of thumb" sizing which generally oversizes for modern buildings with decent insulation.

 

[nsula_country]

I did. It was either 8 or 10 tons, don't remember. Believe the design parameters used were to maintain 75*.

Building is 40x60x17 with 4/12 pitch. Its about 2.5x the volume of a 40x60x8 @2400 sq/ft. With 1" thick foil outside/fiberglass/white inside insulation. Doors are rollups with foil/bubble/foil insulation.

CT

 

[TTMotorsports]

Is there a rule of thumb or chart you have to see what size ducting you need for a certain sized unit. I've been getting quotes on 2 5 ton units installed in my 50x80x16 steel building and the labor cost to install duct work is ridiculous. I do sheet metal work and fabrication everyday but don't know what size etc to do on this.

 

[nsula_country]

I had a friend run Manual D.

5 Ton air handler is 2000 cfm.

Each side starts as 16". 16, 14, 12, 10. Trunk take off size is 10" feeding 12"x12" registers. Good 30'+ throw.

I did the sheetmetal. All snaplock pipe. Not rocket science if you have the layout drawn up. Just use 2000 cfm per 5T. Make sure you can inhale and exhale at least that. I have 3, 20x25 returns. 2, 20x25 in minimal for 2000 cfm at correct filter face velocity.

Sheetmetal IS NOT CHEAP. Nor is the labor to install. Round is cheaper than rectangular and square. From plenum to registers, insulated was about $1000 in materials. +/-

CT

 

[TTMotorsports]

Thank you for that info. Ac contractor that came out wants to run 2 5 ton packaged units with horizontal return and feed. So place them next to building. Cut hole for return. Then he wants to run insulated ducting on outside of shop up to top purlin then into shop and T that into a continuous 34ft long 14inch pipe with 6 registers on that. No step downs or anything. He said itll pressurize that 14inch pipe for even Flow. One setup for each unit.

 

[nsula_country]

No updates to speak of.

No Wi-Fi... No Sensi Thermostat...

Used it over the weekend. Starting it up by 10am and running it till the evening. Created much condensate that I am not reclaiming, yet. Performed well. 80*-82* was the best I could do mid-day, full sun.

Yesterday evening cranked it up after 6pm. Shut it down around 10pm.

I'm happy!

View media item 93717
This thermostat needs to go though. It is not a heat pump thermostat. It was a left over from a job. Knew that it would be replaced with an Emerson (White-Rodgers) Sensi later.

 

[dcg9381]

Created much condensate that I am not reclaiming

What will you eventually do with the reclaimed condensate?

 

[nsula_country]

I don't know yet. May not even go forward with reclamation of condensate.

Hadn't even considered it until GJ member Nlped posted above in post #42 that they reclaim their condensate. They store the condensate in a 150 gallon tank and use it for watering the garden. Sounds good. Its chlorine free... Maybe use it to water plants and garden?

CT

 

[Nlped]

Yep, my wife uses it on the garden and the houseplants. And that makes it easier for me to justify running the a/c. LoL


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[rbrock]

Hello,
I use the Emerson Sensi touchscreen thermostat in my house, it has a built in humidity display so you won't need a separate gauge to monitor the humidity. Good looking installation keep up the post and pictures. ~Ron~

 

[dcg9381]

Yea, I'm currently using mine to feed some plants, which are doing amazingly well. Not ready to put it into tank, as I'll have to pump it out, but I was just curious.

 

[nsula_country]

Small update. HP and electric backup/catchup heat is working wonderful! Electric usage is not as bad as imagined. At most I may have hit 1000 kwh in a month.

Keep it about 55* in standby and crank it to 65*-70* when working in there during the evenings, when colder than I like.

Haven't installed P2P radios yet, but have them. They are configured. On my "to-do-when-it's-not-crappy-outside" list. Have to get on roof of the house to install. Then to pull some Cat6. Blah,blah,blah... Just need to do it.

Did install WiFi Tstat. Picture shows "Cooling Mode". In Louisiana we can use "Cooling Mode" and "Heating Mode" in the same day sometimes!

View media item 100558
CT

 

[nsula_country]

Working in shop today, brew day! 15 gal of Ranger IPA clone, all grain.

Decided to PM HVAC while water boils.

Before and after. Mini Splits are nice, but cannot compare when it comes to filtering return air and protection of the coil/furnace/air handler.

3, 20"x25" filters. 2000 cfm of air flow through these in normal shop conditions. Light wood work, sweeping floor, auto work, ect.

1000 words...

View media item 100604
CT

 

[emlpro]

I have read & re-read this thread several times - my 35x50x16 insulated metal building is "almost" done, but in this scorching North Carolina heat it is hotter in the garage than outside! Like you, I have 200a single PH electric only, and I see the same size system is approx. $2,900 with heat here https://www.theacoutlet.com/rp1460a...MIqtjnpKjD6gIVFI7ICh0WGAu2EAQYASABEgJKg_D_BwE. I just don't know if I have the skills to get something worthwhile for less than $6k total..
Anything you would have done different (more cost effective) if you had to do it again?

 

[nsula_country]

Thank you for stopping in, emlpro.

Being that I have all the tools of the trade and experience installing HVAC, this was planned. I planned it to be as simple and cost effective as possible. Would estimate $9k-$12k if was installed turn key.

Overall, I am happy camper. It is 80* inside as we speak. Have had it as low as 72*. Its 95* outside with heat index of 108* at 2:50 pm CST.

The only way could have been done "cheaper" would have been to throw air off vertical plenum with large commercial louver registers. But would have been centralized around the the air handler. Though could have saved about $1000 in ducting, boots, registers and duct insulation.

The other cost savings could have been to use air socks instead of hard pipe, boots and registers.

I have about $5000 in everything. Including electrical supplies and unistrut to support ducts. Uni-Strut gets expensive quick. Angle iron "may" have been cheaper, but would have required time and welding to fabricate. Not that I mind welding.

Electrical was 4 circuits. 2, 60A (6ga THWN) for heat and 1, 40A (8ga THWN) for condenser and 1, 20A GFCI receptacle outside at condenser.

I optioned the link you provided, which is the same hardware I used, but bought local at supply house, I have an account. 20kw heat, shipping, 2H/2C thermostat (could find cheaper), 3/8x7/8 lineset. $3370.70 for hardware. Emerson Sensi WiFi is about $100 on Amazon. Need 2H/1C minimum for heat pump and electric heat. 14 SEER is a single stage cool.

No idea how "The AC Outlet" handles warranty registration to get the 10 year warranty. Maybe install everything and find an HVAC person to flow nitrogen through lineset, braze, vacuum, charge, balance charge?

Have more questions, let me know.

CT

 

[emlpro]

Thanks, CT!

Your reply only made me more jealous, and sad... HVAC was just one of those things I didn't plan for, like concrete garage door aprons and finish grading.

 

[nsula_country]

Don't feel too bad. I haven't poured any aprons yet. Floor is hard to keep clean.

CT

 

[930dreamer]

When I get to installing the HVAC system for my shop, can I hire you?

 

[nsula_country]

When I get to installing the HVAC system for my shop, can I hire you?

Tempting, but you are a few miles outside of my travel radius. I am honored you have faith in my install!

Though I am trying to make the process as transparent as possible. I have laid out all the material cost for a similar job. I'd also expect about equal cost for labor, overhead and profit for the installer if turnkey.

CT

 

[emlpro]

Don't feel too bad. I haven't poured any aprons yet. Floor is hard to keep clean.

CT

Here is my new "monster!" 3 ton unit - doesn't seem to have any issue bringing 85 degrees inside temp down to 78 in less than an hour. $6,035 installed w/o electrical. Pretty sure stratification is working to my advantage for cooling, but I'll need ceiling fans when heating season arrives. I'm happy to be cool!

 

[nsula_country]

elmpro,

Very clean install.

Stratification does help with cooling. Learned with high ceilings to leave fans off for cooling. Turn them on for heating season.

CT

 

[Sturgeon]

Pretty neat dyi with lots of imformation.

 

[pcmeiners]

I do not give a damn if the thread is >3 years old.

Nice duct work, nice install, thankfully you did not use the, not so cheap, friction, and turbulence causing flexible duct.

I notice you did not insulated the smaller line outside, There is heat/cooling loss from this line.

Also a surge protector on the condenser side of the disconnect would be a good idea. Made my own from high capacity MOVs connected at the disconnect, between L1 and L2 and either leg to ground. Cheap off Ebay, protects surges anomalies and EMP from somewhat distant lightning.

 

[nsula_country]

Pretty neat dyi with lots of imformation.

Not quite DYI... I am an HVAC contractor... Day job is an Engineer.

CT

 

[nsula_country]

I do not give a damn if the thread is >3 years old.

Nice duct work, nice install, thankfully you did not use the, not so cheap, friction, and turbulence causing flexible duct.

I notice you did not insulated the smaller line outside, There is heat/cooling loss from this line.

Also a surge protector on the condenser side of the disconnect would be a good idea. Made my own from high capacity MOVs connected at the disconnect, between L1 and L2 and either leg to ground. Cheap off Ebay, protects surges anomalies and EMP from somewhat distant lightning.

3 years and I'm still here! All is good.

Thanks for stopping by.

CT

 

[Sturgeon]

Insula --- A ha, figures, to nice of job.

 

[rebelranger]

Air sock... why didn't you go that route? I have quite a bit of experience with them from the military but it seems like no one in the US wants to use them

 

[nsula_country]

Air sock... why didn't you go that route? I have quite a bit of experience with them from the military but it seems like no one in the US wants to use them

Would have been too simple, I suppose!

Was familiar with sheet metal. Local supplier had stock. Went the hard way!

Thank you for checking in!

CT

 

[jtrpa]

This shop appears to be 36000 cubic feet. Mine is 14000 cubic feet similar building. I'm in Southeast PA which is cooler in the summer. I am trying to decide between 3 3.5 or 4 tons. I do like keeping in 72 when working. Back in the thread the OP suggested 8 tons might be better if going for house temperatures. Based on the building size difference 3.5 tons would equate to 8 tons. I'm thinking 4 tons would not have great humidity control but would cool down faster. Maybe 3.5 tons would cool fast enough too. Any suggestions?
Thanks
John

 

[W_A_Watson_II]

This shop appears to be 36000 cubic feet. Mine is 14000 cubic feet similar building. I'm in Southeast PA which is cooler in the summer. I am trying to decide between 3 3.5 or 4 tons. I do like keeping in 72 when working. Back in the thread the OP suggested 8 tons might be better if going for house temperatures. Based on the building size difference 3.5 tons would equate to 8 tons. I'm thinking 4 tons would not have great humidity control but would cool down faster. Maybe 3.5 tons would cool fast enough too. Any suggestions?
Thanks
John

I'm 31,104 cu.ft. (54*36*16) and in SE MO and have a 4 ton heart pump, and cooling isn't an issue. Except for the below 24 deg days, the heat pump works great. It's a gas backup for emergency heat.

 

[jtrpa]

I'm 31,104 cu.ft. (54*36*16) and in SE MO and have a 4 ton heart pump, and cooling isn't an issue. Except for the below 24 deg days, the heat pump works great. It's a gas backup for emergency heat.

Thanks. How quickly can you get the temp down when the building is hot?
John