...
...
Great Shop build up and amazing bikes.
Which lathe is this in the quoted photo?
44 Bikes Frame Shop
- Thread starter fortyfour
- Start date
Great Shop build up and amazing bikes.
Which lathe is this in the quoted photo?
Rockcam
Well-known member
Now that's freaky. I'm from Michigan, but travel to EG nearly every week for work (Knoll). Nice area.
Love the thread + bikes.
I don't call myself very spiritual or religious, but I just had a moment here.
I clicked on your link at page 1, at 10:44am today.
Read every single post you graciously took the time to type out and poured your soul into posting for us to appreciate.
Clicked "reply to thread" to thank you and noticed the time. 2:44pm.
I assume you see the significance here! lol My mind is blown right now. From the "44" timing for me today viewing your thread, and the work you posted. I am at a loss for words. Never thought I could be touched in such a way from an internet posting!
I clicked on your link at page 1, at 10:44am today.
Read every single post you graciously took the time to type out and poured your soul into posting for us to appreciate.
Clicked "reply to thread" to thank you and noticed the time. 2:44pm.
I assume you see the significance here! lol My mind is blown right now. From the "44" timing for me today viewing your thread, and the work you posted. I am at a loss for words. Never thought I could be touched in such a way from an internet posting!
Last edited:
Slednut
Well-known member
Knoll is right down Route 29 from my parents home on Jefferson St. in East Greenville. Two beautiful iron bridges are behind Knoll's (aptly named The First Iron Bridge and The Second Iron Bridge") which cross the Perkiomen Creek. My buddy and I as kids fished the heck out of that stream in the summer. The Upper Perkiomen Valley is one of those "best kept secrets" north of Philadelphia. It has a nice mix of town and open fields/forest just out of town in the Township with a bunch of historical buildings and some nice turn of the century architecture to boot. Some of the charm has been lost over time from my childhood (the streets were lined with Maples, one in front of every house and many if not most have since been cut down) but there are some cool spots in the surrounding towns and area. Good road riding too with some mean hills just out of town as you head towards Pottstown or over towards Emmaus / Vera Cruz.
Next one is a bit special: Making my wife a road bike with room for 35mm knobbies. Shimano Ultegra Di2 Electronic shifting with Hydraulic Disc Brakes and 11 spd drivetrain. Some special porting needs to be fabricated for the electronic shifting bits. And so you all know, she got in line just like everyone else but we made plans well in advance so her turn would come up just about summer time in 2014. She's looking forward to commuting to work by bike when it's finished...
And two back from powder. This first one is a frame and fork (waiting on the fork now) that's headed to Japan.
This one is a long travel 650b which will find it's home in England. This ones been a long time in the planning/building. Client is coming over to visit family who live north of my in NH, but swinging down for a day to ride and take the bike home with him. Going to take the day off and share some local trails with my client. Should be a good day.
And two back from powder. This first one is a frame and fork (waiting on the fork now) that's headed to Japan.
This one is a long travel 650b which will find it's home in England. This ones been a long time in the planning/building. Client is coming over to visit family who live north of my in NH, but swinging down for a day to ride and take the bike home with him. Going to take the day off and share some local trails with my client. Should be a good day.
I noticed one vent hole on your wife's new bottom bracket is larger than the other, is that there to accommodate internally routed wiring? Oh and no heart on the seat tube, too time consuming I suppose?
Your building style is so very organized and well thought out almost rhythmical. Very inspiring. Kinda makes other bicycles somehow disappointing.
Your building style is so very organized and well thought out almost rhythmical. Very inspiring. Kinda makes other bicycles somehow disappointing.
cderalow
Well-known member
still no titanium?
I saw that bike in photos from NAHBS
i made a mess in my pants
I saw that bike in photos from NAHBS
i made a mess in my pants
So when I built the bicycle for Shimano, it was Di2 as well (electronic shifting with internally routed electronic shifting bits/wires). I spoke with both Tyler and Jamie at Firefly for some tips and recommendations as they build these types of bikes regularly. Great help from those guys. One thing I wanted to change however was how the routing worked in the bottom bracket for the rear derailleur. You have to physically "fish" the electronic wires through the inside of the tubes and basically thread a needle with those ports. I found it easiest to go from the dropout towards the bottom bracket for the rear derailleur-but with the way the chainstays are bent/formed, the end was a royal PITA to get it to line up with the hole. So for this bike, i enlarged the hole from .25" to .375" and offset it so it's low (the end of the electronic wire kept wanting to exit through the hole low). So that's what's going on with the different sized hole.
But the seat tube vent hole being heart shaped actually doesn't take all that long to make. Tops 10 minutes with a file? What I ran into was the pinch in the center of the heart. When I ream the seat tube, I noticed that little pinch was catching the ream and making the job a bit tedious. I've since switched to .25 or .375" round vent holes there - much smoother when reaming the inside of the tube. However, I still will do it upon request from the client.
Here's a few from finishing up the build:
Long Travel 650b headed to England. Client is coming OVER to pick it up!
Huntsman headed to Japan :
And a major web redesign. What drove this was needing an ability to create an online shop. The one I will use is powered by wordpress, which is my blog format, and I need to update my blog and of course that means updating the website a touch... long story short: This means I'll have a platform to sell things like T-shirts, Posters and other assorted schwag. Stay tuned! Head on over to www.44bikes.com to check out the new layout. Still tweaking, but it's a go.
Krokodil
Well-known member
Love your work!
Business-related question; not sure how much you are at liberty to (or willing to) disclose. Pure curiosity, as someone who previously worked in the retail bike business.
At what volumes did make the jump from selling frames to built bikes? How are you able to remain competitive with the big online joints on "build kit" pricing when building complete bikes, when each on gets tweaked per customer specs? I mean, you obviously don't have the purchasing power (or overhead allowance) of Colorado Cyclist or Nashbar to get volume discounts buy buying 20 XTR setups at once, right?
At what volumes did make the jump from selling frames to built bikes? How are you able to remain competitive with the big online joints on "build kit" pricing when building complete bikes, when each on gets tweaked per customer specs? I mean, you obviously don't have the purchasing power (or overhead allowance) of Colorado Cyclist or Nashbar to get volume discounts buy buying 20 XTR setups at once, right?
Guster
Well-known member
Buzz Lightyear
Well-known member
That is absolutely delicious!
Agreed
I love the clean lines with the internal cable/hose routing.
Have you built a bike with the wireless shifters yet? I'd not seen a set until recently and was just wondering if you've had a chance to play with them.
Sure, no problem. That's a really good set of questions. A retail shop and a frame shop are similar but very different at the same time. Here's how I see it (and how I define myself over a retail shop can have many parallels but for the sake of conversation, I'm turning these points into differences and how the two can coincide together without necessarily competing at the same level):
Regarding Frame Shop vs Bike Shop: In a bicycle shop, on the retail level, you're pulling in all different sorts of clientele. Children's first bicycle, Kids first BMX or Mountain bike, Adults first bicycle, a guy who's owned a mountain bike for 15 years and now wants to upgrade or someone who wants a bike that can do X a bit better than what they currently own, etc. etc. Repairs. People who need tubes, lube, grease or a part that broke. Advice. You are pulling in cyclists and people who ride occasionally or someone who is thinking of getting into bicycling. You also pull in the long time cyclists and serious roadies or shredders. If you have a team, you're supporting them too and pulling in some serious cyclists through that or long time cyclists come in depending on the size of the shop and what they can offer that that type of cyclists cannot do themselves, etc. So buying at volume pricing makes sense. You need lots of parts on hand and lots of bikes on hand, with some sizzle in there to sell the steak. You've got employee's, part time help, someone to keep the books, a manager, a owner or a manager/owner. You may own the space or you're renting the space. You place ads, you more than likely hire someone to do a website, or graphic design, or maybe you do it yourself or you have an employee with a degree that applies.
The frame shop, MY Frame Shop... is similar, yet completely different. First, the person that enters my doors is by invite only. Not just anyone off the street can come into the shop. I'm not handling repairs, fixing flats, doing tune-ups, "I broke my derailleur hanger do you have the right replacement"... I sweep the floors, I make the coffee, I build the bicycles. I design the catalogs, I designed my logo, I just redesigned and hand coded my website. I do the marketing, I know where I've been, where I am and where I'd like to take the brand. 44 Bikes is as DIY as you can get.
I'm building, physically building from raw tubes a cyclists next bicycle. Bike shops can throw around that word "custom built" or "custom build" all they want. But a frame shop defines that word "custom." This is the bicycle that's taking the client to the next level, taking them on that long desired journey or adventure, the one bike that they've been looking for a long time to acquire. This is not their first bicycle. Sometimes it might be there last or they may be repeat customers. They're contacting me because they've had a long history of riding bicycles, they've owned upwards of 10-15 bicycles and each one has been better than the last but something was always lacking. Maybe as simple as those small personal touches. The rare case is fit issues or physical oddities (say one arm longer than the other, longer than average torso or shorter than average inseam). What they come to me as a framebuilder is they want that personal guidance, to be part of the bicycle right from the very first step in the design process and they want to hand pick each part, dial in every measurement, lose sleep over the paint or powder and let me take them through my process from start to finish of building their bicycle. Not just assembling the parts. I do that too.
My clientele are similar to the clientele that come into a retail bike shop environment, but they are definitely on a whole other level. They span a variety of incomes and backgrounds, so I'm not necessarily selling to a certain segment of the population. But this is the person who wants that "tailored" approach. The discerning cyclists who does appreciate supporting local craftsman, and the one who wants to know the origin of their bicycle is made by hands here in the USA. They've told me as much and more. They've come to me and clearly stated they appreciate my process, my willingness to share and that there is an intrinsic appeal for the product I'm creating.
A retail bike shop: cannot compete with me. The Specialized's or the Trek's of the world: Cannot compete with me nor can either of them compete with the level of attention I am afforded to spend with the client. I do not want to compete with them. I work with retail bicycle shops and fitters who provide me with detailed specifications from their fit for my client. Sometimes the completed bicycle is shipped to that same shop for final assembly for the client and one last fit/dial in of saddle height, bar positioning etc. I have partnered with large scale OEM's and have a laundry list which includes Shimano, Fox, Chris King, Industry 9, ENVE, Cane Creek, Paul Components, Stan's NoTubes, Phil Wood, Hayes, Thomson, and a bunch of others. I also have accounts with QBP, BTI, Security, Merry Sales and others. Anything a retail shop can get, I can as well and offer at competitive pricing. At the end of the day, my completes are in line with top of the line bicycles on a showroom floor in a retail environment. Sometimes they are even less, they fit like a glove and it's the exact color the client wanted. No compromises have been made whatsoever.
NOTE: This is not to say any or most of the above is not present at a retail bike shop. I still love walking into my favorite bike shop, speaking with the employees, checking out the latest and greatest and smelling that new bike smell. In many ways, there are some things that a retail environment can offer that I simply cannot but in contrast, would not want to offer. I work with shops not against them and always encourage my clients to speak with the shops at the local level if they have additional questions I cannot answer.
Regarding volume pricing: To live comfortably, I do not make my money in volume sales. I make my money by carving out a place in the custom market (primarily building complete bespoke bicycles), creating a brand that speaks for itself, is completely unique, is offering something that is different than "off the shelf", supplying the discerning cyclists with a long history with an in depth approach to my process. Basically opening up my doors and my arms and welcoming them into and through the shop. Leading by example. Mountain bikes are typically a mix of components. Drivetrains are all the same be it Sram or Shimano. Cranks and chainrings are most likely the spot in the drivetrain that is changed. Wheelsets are custom built (rims, spokes and hubs). Road bikes typically are a bit more of "kits" but again, wheels, stems, saddles, seat posts, headsets... they all tend to come from different OEM accounts. So having a number of kits on hand never makes sense. I purchase the "kit" for the bicycle when the turn of the client comes up and every last part has been picked and priced out. All of this takes time yes, but this is my job and what I love to do and it's part and parcel to the tailored approach. In a nutshell: I build F1's not Fords.
Regarding Frame vs Completes: As a custom frame builder, I started building completes right from the beginning. I will build framesets (frame & fork) or say a rolling chassis where it's frame, fork, wheels and a few parts. But from the first contact with a client, we're talking in terms of complete and I am up front with them. I will work with the client to best suite their needs, but I do let them know I prefer to build completes but am not opposed to just building frame and fork. Out of the last 10 frames to date, only one has been a frame and fork only. All of the others are completes with all high end components.
I do think the most important aspect of this response / conversation though is this: I work in collaboration with retail bicycle shops whenever I can and I partner with large OEM's to offer their product on my bespoke bicycles. Volume and "more" is the complete opposite of what it is that I do.
Less is more.
Agreed
I love the clean lines with the internal cable/hose routing.
Have you built a bike with the wireless shifters yet? I'd not seen a set until recently and was just wondering if you've had a chance to play with them.
Do you mean with Shimano's Di2 shifting (electronic shifting)? Yes to that. Just finished one up and will post pictures when completed. The bike I built for Shimano is a good example of this. I seem to recall Shimano not exactly answering a question at a "secret" meeting at the bike show regarding true wireless shifters. So it would work like wifi or something. They didn't say yes, but they did not say no. IMO: that's where it needs to go to really get my attention. Especially on a mountain bike. Here's that shimano bike:
The frame is protected internally with a rust inhibitor in addition to having oversized drain holes through the seat tube to the bottom bracket. I will also be making a small part that can fit over and snap into that slot as an extra precaution (actually later today).
Buzz Lightyear
Well-known member
Do you mean with Shimano's Di2 shifting (electronic shifting)? Yes to that. Just finished one up and will post pictures when completed. The bike I built for Shimano is a good example of this. I seem to recall Shimano not exactly answering a question at a "secret" meeting at the bike show regarding true wireless shifters. So it would work like wifi or something. They didn't say yes, but they did not say no. IMO: that's where it needs to go to really get my attention. Especially on a mountain bike. Here's that shimano bike:
They all seem to be working on and hopefully bringing out true wireless shifters. I saw an article about the SRAM (I think) ones which used Bluetooth and once the shifters and mech were paired they blocked all others so that in the bunch in a race you wouldn't get someone else changing your gears for you
These were for a road bike though.The green one is a thing of beauty though. I don't know why but it just looks......................................right. Congrats
cderalow
Well-known member
Do you mean with Shimano's Di2 shifting (electronic shifting)? Yes to that. Just finished one up and will post pictures when completed. The bike I built for Shimano is a good example of this. I seem to recall Shimano not exactly answering a question at a "secret" meeting at the bike show regarding true wireless shifters. So it would work like wifi or something. They didn't say yes, but they did not say no. IMO: that's where it needs to go to really get my attention. Especially on a mountain bike. Here's that shimano bike:
god.. every time i see that i make a mess in my pants.
SRAM has been working on wireless electronic now for a while from what I've seen.
Cool, thanks for the response. You certainly answered the questions, and then some. I just wasn't sure at what volume levels large supply houses (like QBP) and high end OEM's (like King and Thompson) are willing to offer distributor pricing to a privateer like yourself.
What's really been interesting for me is just how open they are to custom builders and that market. They realize that the custom market is different, but really has a lot of influence on the industry as a whole. In most, if not all cases, I receive OEM level pricing. Some require liability insurance (which I have) so the barrier for entry is high, but if you are serious about this as a profession, it only makes sense for you to carry all that you can to protect yourself and your clients. They (OE's) are not just setting up a builder account for just anyone - there are requirements.
As a custom builder, you're basically not the primary source of income for these larger OE's but they've been good about recognizing the segment and supporting that niche with competitive pricing as we do not really compete in terms of volume with shops or larger bicycle brands. But we are an important segment of the bicycling community.
Bob Heine
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Kristofer,
That sentence caught my attention because my left arm is quite a bit shorter than my right (it ends just above the elbow). The forearm went missing in 1965 and I started riding a Schwinn Varsity three years later so I could bike with my wife and two kids. Stopping my bike with just the rear caliper was sometimes a very exciting experience.
This one-column article in Popular Science in 1976 described a single lever dual hydraulic brake system that Sears was planning to adopt. It looked like a great solution to my braking issue.
http://www.popsci.com/archive-viewer?id=BgEAAAAAMBAJ&pg=52&query=williams brake
I wrote to the inventor, Lynn Williams, wanting to buy a system and he very kindly sent one of his prototype systems and told me to enjoy it. He received a patent but I've never seen another bike with the system. Here's a link to the patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US3993174
I still use the system on my bike but some of the plastic parts are disintegrating. I plan to try to re-make them in aluminum or stainless.
The hydraulic part of the system is sealed and the plastic he used is extremely durable so the core of the design still works after 46 years.
As GirlinAgarage describes it, I also live in the "Land of the Bad Drivers" so my riding is severely limited. We have lots of bike lanes but they are actually death traps. Many South Florida drivers navigate by sound, which means bike riders are often referred to as "what was that noise I just heard?"
Just wondering what your opinion is on carbon bars for mountain bikes. Been told the issue with carbon is that you can't see a break unless its on the top layer, therefore it may have structural issues you're unable to observe.
I live in an area of Australia known for its "ball-bearing gravel" and wash outs are not exactly uncommon. I have a pair of carbon ENVE bars very similar to the ones above but as yet, have been unable to mount them given my concerns.
To summarise, do you think there is any issues with carbon bars on mountain bikes following a crash?
Btw 44 I thought your answer to this question was great.
When I replaced my road bike after getting hit by a car a couple of years back I looked long and hard at many US based custom frame options (not yours, had never heard of you at the time) and I have to say, your work looks as good as any of the big custom builders. This is probably my favourite thread on GJ (and I spend waaay too much time on GJ) and hope you keep up the great work and good luck for the future.
gt3 racer
Active member
44, will there ever be a tandem in your future? Been riding for 30 years and still own and have kept every bike.( My wife and I are up 11 bikes). We rode Paris-Brest-Paris on a Santana tandem in 1991. Your work is truly amazing keep it up.
Wow.
I will say that the carbon of today is a lot better than the carbon of a few years ago. ENVE's (IMO) is some of the best. If pro's like Greg Minaar lay the hammer down on their product, I'm confident things will be ok for me. Like anything, it should be inspected every now and again. Torque spec's should be followed closely when mounting. But do know that there typically is a finish layer over top of the carbon weave which can take abuse and wear. It's when the scratch shows the weave to be damaged, that's when it's time to think about a replacement. Just like a dent in steel, Ti or aluminum. But like anything, it's the degree of the crash I would be concerned about - and to take a close look at everything after a really hard crash. I know I do. Most times my falls are kind of bumbles at low speed. But I still take a look at everything.
No tandem in my own future. And most likely not in any clients future. My wife and I often joke about tandems: You NEVER, EVER see the guy as the stoker. Just once I want to see a guy in tow with his wife steering the ship. That will be a cold day in hell before I spot one of those I'm sure
Kristofer,
Are you able to build a frame compatible with Gates Carbon Drive? I have just purchased a used Spot bicycle with belt drive and have fallen in love with the quite ride. I live in northern Illinois so there is not of vertical to cover but I have ridden in Colorado several times. Colorado is where I was introduced to the belt drive, several guys out there ride Reeb cycles which are cool but not as cool as 44 bikes. I just am enamored with your process and the lines of your frames they are just beautiful. I can see a new bike in a few years and am seriously contemplating 44 Bikes or at least a frame!
Are you able to build a frame compatible with Gates Carbon Drive? I have just purchased a used Spot bicycle with belt drive and have fallen in love with the quite ride. I live in northern Illinois so there is not of vertical to cover but I have ridden in Colorado several times. Colorado is where I was introduced to the belt drive, several guys out there ride Reeb cycles which are cool but not as cool as 44 bikes. I just am enamored with your process and the lines of your frames they are just beautiful. I can see a new bike in a few years and am seriously contemplating 44 Bikes or at least a frame!
E12-535iTurbo
Well-known member
Really inspiring.
I'm guessing it's time to get to work on the shop again. Have that floor fixed, put some paint on the walls and get that lathe organised. It's blast to read through all of the pages. Thanks for sharing!
I'm guessing it's time to get to work on the shop again. Have that floor fixed, put some paint on the walls and get that lathe organised. It's blast to read through all of the pages. Thanks for sharing!
horizontallyopposed
Well-known member
Baylen,
If you're near Cagary, SAIT does offer evening classes in MIG and TIG welding. That would be beneficial. I'm sure that NAIT or RDC offers the same, depending on where you are.
There are a couple of framebuilders still active in Alberta that I know of - Roche is a newer one, and Runout Industries in Canmore.
http://www.runout-industries.com/
Hi Baylen - List aside, here is what I would suggest:
1. IF you have no practical experience with materials, especially metal (i.e. steel, aluminum and titanium) and it's nuances, I'd suggest you first start with a few projects that are non-bicycle related. Just fun stuff you can "get to know" the material. Don't focus on how right it is nor how perfect it is, just make some things to get an idea of the material. Bicycle assembly is one thing. Building a bicycle from scratch and raw materials is a whole other can of worms. Not to discourage you, but bicycle fabrication is a layered stack of skillsets that are perfected and honed over time and the end result is to then apply these honed skills to building a bicycle (My own opinion and direction).
2. As another has suggested, look into local sources for brazing (silver and brass) as well as Tig welding. IF you want to build bicycles and Tig weld them, it's best to just start with Tig, get the basics from someone very experienced, and then practice, practice, practice. Mig has it's applications, but one of them is not bicycles. You need control and dexterity to weld thin walled tubing. All of this welding:
Is first being instructed by an expert eye, and then time, patience and a lot of practice. I cannot stress how important practice is. I learn something new every time I pick up a torch. I'm constantly refining and honing my skills. I actually don't want to be perfect. I just want to be good and proficient. If that gets close to perfect, so be it. But look into local votech and anyone local you may know that may know someone willing to teach you and show you the basics.
3. Tools... This is a huge pitfall of a lot of new builders. I'll be honest: Tooling up and investing in all these machines will kill you. Sure it's nice to have all these great tools but if you don't have the first idea of how to properly use them, you're throwing good money at bad.
Start slow. Concentrate on the basics. Files, torch, bench, emory, a bucket of scrap tubes, a straight edge and a good vise. Repetition trumps all. Practice till you can't practice any more. Then practice more. In reality, that is all you need to build your first handful of frames. Two of the best production frame building jigs on the market are by Sputnik Tool and Anvil Tools. As an example, the new Anvil T4 Frame jig is $5400.00. The older Type 2 jig's do not go for sale "used" often, you have to know where to look and even then, they hold their value. My own not including the time it took to build is in the neighborhood of about $1500.00 with all the material, dummy axles, back purging, stand etc. But that required a good amount of lathe and mill time as well as a lot of experience in the disciplines. But like I said above...
Start simple, and get a knack for the material first to even see if you enjoy it. At the end of the day, this is hard work. It takes a lot of labor to build a bicycle. But in contrast there is a lot of love, dedication and passion that I funnel into my bikes. So although it is work, it feels a little less like the latter since I am so passionate about it. There's nothing better than doing this:
And then getting out and doing this with what YOU built:
Just know it takes a lot of time to acquire the skills and a lifetime of practice.
Good luck!