44 Bikes Frame Shop

[vegar]

Well prepared and the product will be of very high quality. The welds look very good as far as I can see. Looking forward to se a full TI bike

 

[dittle fart around]

Sounds like business is good. You're living the dream dude. I've wished I could do something in the garage to sustain my lifestyle. Wouldn't take much since I'm aiming at "white trash old man" as my goal.

Merry Christmas

 

[KeithTurk]

Okay.. it took all day... but I finally got to the end of the thread, Amazing welding skills from start to finish... obviously better in the end... but I'd be happy to weld with your skills on page 1.

Couple of questions. Why aren't you keeping it in the jig after you tack it, ( does the head not distort it while your doing your final welding? )

What's the shipping box look like... just curious

Keith ( can't wait to see a lay out picture of the studio )

 

[strike a poser]

Kris, I'm very impressed by all that you've posted. One question. How do you hold onto a air cooled torch buy the nozzle while you are welding? All the work I've done would fry my hand in no time, and that's with a water cooled torch. I'm wondering if it's the gas lens or the fact that you are using low amps.
Thanks, Greg.

 

[fortyfour]

<SNIP>

Couple of questions. Why aren't you keeping it in the jig after you tack it, ( does the head not distort it while your doing your final welding? )

The jig is only a tacking jig actually. Certain spots on the frame I will weld fully if it's a tube to tube overlap or if there is a tube which is REALLY close in proximity to another, I'll wrap a weld after tacking sequentially, but as you said the frame is welded outside of the frame jig. The biggest reason is it's much easier as I can position the frame in any position and keep the weld site at the lowest point but keep that relatively in a good working relationship to myself so I am welding comfortably. The other thing you're not seeing is I'm also using heat to pull the frame into alignment and using techniques of tacks/weld sequences to maintain alignment as I weld. The frame is tacked in the jig, then the seat stays are fitted and tack outside of the jig-but if any alignment needs to occur, it's best to do that before the seat stays are in place as that really triangulates the front to the rear and any movement needed in any direction is so much easier without the seat stays in place. Heat moves metal, so you can use it to move metal where you want it. That of course takes time, practice and patience!

Here's an example of the frame in the stand, out of the jig but welding in a position that has maximum clearance and range of positioning (I'd have to have some crazy 5 axis position adjustment system on the jig to achieve this and I'd also have parts in the way on the jig to access this:

What's the shipping box look like... just curious

Just a big rectangular box. Bike gets partially disassembled and some get sent in 2-3 boxes depending on how much "stuff" is with the bike). Fat bikes go in a really big box!

This one went to Scotland and was a frame set along with some parts and a wheel the client had sent over for clearance/compatibility checks:



Here's that build set on Flickr for those interested in seeing the process start to finish.

 

[fortyfour]

Kris, I'm very impressed by all that you've posted. One question. How do you hold onto a air cooled torch buy the nozzle while you are welding? All the work I've done would fry my hand in no time, and that's with a water cooled torch. I'm wondering if it's the gas lens or the fact that you are using low amps.
Thanks, Greg.

Thanks for the kind words. So I think it really has to do with the lower amps and the short duration of welding. I have to stop / move, and make adjustments constantly to access points on the frame as I am welding. Holding the torch in this way, it also allows me a bit more control and precision almost like holding a pencil or pen? The gas lens "may" have something to do with it and the size of the nozzle may also but I think it has more to do with the lower amps and short duration of welding. For example, in Titanium, the amps are even lower and the physical weld length or duration is shorter even still so I do not outrun my shielding gas. The settings are very different for both for me, but Ti is even more "picky" about heat input as I am finding. You can pound on steel and it does not care (to a certain point). Ti, you can weld/multi-pass weld it but you need to mind your heat build up otherwise your shielding gas just won't it's job and you get contamination around the periphery of the weld.

In this example, you can see where I was stopping/starting my welds but carrying a bit too much heat and was getting these "halo's" of deep straw. It's acceptable, but that requires clean up post weld and I want these to be done when I'm done so that means learning a lot of heat control and practice:



Vs. this one, where I was able to control my heat input better and bounce around on the frame allowing previous weld sites to completely cool before returning to them (I posted this one before, but it's a good reference - you can also see in the weld just to the right the inconsistencies created when stopping, starting and tying the stop/start spots together. This weld things clicked how to do that):

 

[sands35]

Very nice weld quality. Have you sectioned one to check penetration?

(Suggest not having exposed skin...)

 

[azcanc]

Gravel grinder? CX? Mountain? -

Had my first tussle with Titanium this past friday. What a learning experience! Super excited. It's taken a few months to get everything dialed in with my setup. Reason it's been taking large span's of time between sessions is I do this between builds and when I have some free time. If I had my way, I'd just close down shop and not reopen until it's all dialed but that's not realistic. But the process has allowed me to take my time, read a lot, ask a lot of piers appropriate questions, do a lot of listening and subsequently do a lot of learning. In many ways it's similar to many materials I've worked with in the past, but in many other ways it's very different. And on that note, very little of my experience from working with steel transfers over. It's a bit like learning how to weld and build bikes all over again.

But to get the best "classroom" setting I could, I wanted to replicate the restrictions I'll be working under when I build bikes out of titanium so it only made sense to use the materials and parts for practice. That meant some investment and making up some dummy front triangles. I have been doing a lot of practice joints and felt confident to make the jump to actually welding up a mock front triangle. Here's the first shot doing my fusion pass for the head tube:



This allowed me to not only get used to the material, but also to test positioning, check all my tools for purge, check purge for the feed where the argon was entering and venting, weld position, machine settings (which are vastly different from steel and vastly different from Fusion to Filler Pass). Check my process and methodology. Check machining speeds/feeds. It's goes on and on. Here's a filler pass:



I worked from the bottom bracket towards the head tube but jumped around a bunch allowing the material to cool sufficiently between passes. I ended with the head tube and by that last weld of the head tube to down tube, things started to click:



Not perfect, but a good start and I feel like I'm getting somewhere with good argon coverage and what appears to be good back purge too. Best part is I'll cut this up, inspect, take notes and start all over again albeit with a slightly smaller front triangle. Here's a few better shots allowing you to see the welds a bit better. Not perfect, but it's getting there:







That last shot of the bottom bracket shows a little straw color in the corners but still good purge and coverage with the nice shiny welds. I've got more joints lined up for this Monday too:



The mock up front triangle is about a 56 or 57cm frame (That's typically the length of the Seat Tube/Top Tube) to give you an idea of size:



Stoked? More than stoked!

Here's a frame that shipped this week along with 3 others. This one was liquid paint:









Can't wait to get back at it Monday. Really excited as things start to come together and their is some light at the end of the tunnel with titanium. Enjoy!

 

[tachikomaster]

I dig your work!
You really have a way with metal as well with wood.
Subscribed!

 

[fortyfour]

Very nice weld quality. Have you sectioned one to check penetration?

(Suggest not having exposed skin...)

Just got back from travel so will be sectioning things up later this week to inspect.

 

[fortyfour]

Gravel grinder? CX? Mountain? -

The painted frame/fork (navy+gold) is a Gravel Grinder which headed out to California.

 

[STClurker]

I didn't read the whole thread,, but how much is a complete fat bike roughly?

 

[vegar]

I didn't read the whole thread,, but how much is a complete fat bike roughly?

http://http://www.44bikes.com/images/44pricing.pdf

 

[kjdhawkhill]

http://http://www.44bikes.com/images/44pricing.pdf

Link isn't functioning for me.

Frames start at $1850. Complete builds probably are 3k-ish for a value build. But if you're spending custom frame money, you might as well hang higher-end parts on the piece of refined art that 44 is crafting.

I've got (one[emoji28])too many other budgetary items to have seriously inquired, but that's my best guess.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[k-os]

Link isn't functioning for me.

Frames start at $1850. Complete builds probably are 3k-ish for a value build. But if you're spending custom frame money, you might as well hang higher-end parts on the piece of refined art that 44 is crafting.

I've got (one[emoji28])too many other budgetary items to have seriously inquired, but that's my best guess.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link was missing a ":".

http://www.44bikes.com/images/44pricing.pdf

 

[893cv]

I keep photos of your welds in a file labeled "Welding ****".

Thanks!

 

[PaverMan]

Where the hell do I start with this comment?

I was practically BORN on a bicycle. Having two wheels under me for most of my life. I competed in BMX as a kid, then BMX freestyle (got in a few magazines), and then mountain biking. The competition wasn't really what made me tick, it was just being on a bicycle, practicing, learning, failing, laughing, wrecking - you get the idea.

I never got into road riding, however, I've used my mountain bikes to commute to work, run errands, or to just get cross-training for the running I do. So, if you count that I've logged probably more miles than some "road riders".

I have bought / sold / traded pretty much every kind of bicycle part known to man. I've shipped parts to every part of this Earth. Places that I've never heard of before I got payment through PayPal and thought...where the hell is that? - and consulted a map to see. The point is, I LOVE bicycles - in case I was unclear up until this point. Ha!

But I digress, I just wanted to say this thread is simply ridiculous. Ridiculous in a way that I just can't believe how it speaks to me. I love your work, your art, your expertise.

I own a small construction company. I specialize in interior carpentry, and exterior design and construction - decks, cabanas, garages, patios, segmental retaining walls, etc. I love to work with my hands, but my favorite projects are the ones where I get to work by myself on some custom cabinetry or exterior show piece - like a fireplace, firepit, or other feature.

I have visited this thread in the past, a few years ago now and I stumbled upon it again and it made me realize that I need to spend more time here to continue to be inspired by threads like this. The "do-ers" of the world.

This thread kicks a$$! Am I allowed to say that here?

 

[SvenTomas]

Kris . . .
I've been spending early morning reading through your thread and its great! Thanks for sharing . . . your work is inspiring.

I believe I saw some time back (not positive) that you weren't a fan of sliding rear dropouts, but seems as if you build them occasionally for clients? I wish I would have known about you 1-1/2 years ago when I was searching for a custom frame builder for my FatBike project. I had a frame built to my specs and requested a sliding rear dropout for a Rolloff 500/14XL (170mm). I also had him build it with a break in the seat stay with the idea of running a belt on the Rolloff in the future.

The bike has been great, but I cannot get the rear end to stop creaking. I have read through Paragon's advice, installed titanium hardware (for extra torque-ability). Sorry to tap into your build/shop thread but I'm needing some help.

Tom in Washington State

 

[cderalow]

love seeing some Ti goodness starting to take shape.

 

[fortyfour]

Kris . . .
I've been spending early morning reading through your thread and its great! Thanks for sharing . . . your work is inspiring.

I believe I saw some time back (not positive) that you weren't a fan of sliding rear dropouts, but seems as if you build them occasionally for clients? I wish I would have known about you 1-1/2 years ago when I was searching for a custom frame builder for my FatBike project. I had a frame built to my specs and requested a sliding rear dropout for a Rolloff 500/14XL (170mm). I also had him build it with a break in the seat stay with the idea of running a belt on the Rolloff in the future.

The bike has been great, but I cannot get the rear end to stop creaking. I have read through Paragon's advice, installed titanium hardware (for extra torque-ability). Sorry to tap into your build/shop thread but I'm needing some help.

Tom in Washington State

HI Tom,

Not a problem and apologies for the tardy response. I'm not sure if I am quoted correctly as I do build quite a bit of bikes with sliding dropouts. What I do not like is actually adding a break in the frame to run a belt driven drivetrain. According to my opinion: Chains are still far superior. Belts can and do break. Because of the design, the chainrings are on the wide side cutting in to vital chain stay to tire clearances. I want to say they also have some pretty strict chain line adherences? But I've built a handful of Rohloff equipped frames for clients using a traditional chain.

The split in the frame actually might be making the noise too? But not sure. Interfaces like to get creaky eventually if not lightly greased. And even then, I find myself seasonally having to break some things down depending on how dry/dusty it's been.

The first thing I do: See if you can pin-point the creak. This means one step at a time. Start with where you think it is originating and then fully disassemble, clean and lightly add grease to all interfaces and then reassemble. Ride and see if that does the trick. If not, then take the next step and next part. Some times it can be pro-active to ride the bike, make note of where you think it's coming from and then see if you can replicate that noise when just standing still or by adding load to that part of the bike in isolation. (I know I was chasing a noise that I thought for sure was in my headset and turned out to be the non-drive crank arm to spindle interface. It was resonating way up at the headset).

For Paragon's sliders:

- Disassemble both sides.
- Thoroughly clean the parts and the interfaces on the frame.
- Pay close attention to the interfaces on the frame and check to see all paint has been removed from the sliders front/back faces and inside the slots.
- Lightly apply grease to everything and all interfaces. That includes the Ti 12pt hop up bolt threads, the washers front/back, the males tabs on the dropouts and the faces inside and outside of the dropouts. Even put some grease in the slider adjustment screw ports.
- Reassemble and clean off any / all excess grease so as not to attract additional grit.

The Rohloff specific dropout insert will also be ISO 51mm specific, so put a light coat of grease between adapter and the ISO 51 dropout insert for the brake.

What I noticed that effects these dropouts most is really dry conditions. That's where the finest of dirt/grit can work it's way in there and make some clicking/creaking.

Some times, if I don't want to actually chase the noise, and I really think it's drivetrain related, I'll just pull the cranks, bottom bracket, pedals, spacers... everything. Clean it all really good, re-grease, reassemble to torque spec and typically that does the trick! Chainring bolts can honestly be the worst. Some times the heads on those little buggers can get grit packed in between the interfaces and without a thorough cleaning and re-grease, you can be pounding your head against the wall.

Hope that helps!

 

[SvenTomas]

Thanks for the detailed response. That's about how I've been approaching it. Since I initially posted, I have begun to suspect the frame break. I had already been having second thoughts about having included it in my build . . . I've never really been dis-satisfied with chains. I'm running a really cool BMX half-link chain right now on the Rolloff and it made for real versatility length-wise (besides looking kind of cool). I'll pull the frame break apart and give it a good clean/grease. I have not tried grease on the Paragon Sliders yet as they advise against it, but I have always been inclined to give it a little coating.

Love your bikes, and your attention to detail. I have been showing a few of my students your blog and they all want to learn to TIG tubing now! I need to learn first . . . perhaps that will give me something to work on this summer.

 

[corysurf]

Wow! What nice work you are doing! Any updates, did you ever get a chance to post a floor plan for your shop? Thanks.

 

[fortyfour]

Sorry all. Things have been busy with a lot of tooling being updated and machined. Bikes still being built too. Here's a small sampling of what's been up.

Bending Dies:







More Purged Heat Sinks





Beefed up Backing Plate for my Tube Mitering Set up:



New Website...



New Chain stay Mitering and Chain stay Sub-Assembly Jigs:























And of course bikes...

 

[greyghost18t]

Looks good! If i road a bike seriously i would spend the money on one of these! Looks like quality work and someone that takes pride in what they are doing. Props to you!

 

[zmotorsports]

Beautiful work as always.

Mike.

 

[kjdhawkhill]

I gotta stop previewing your photos on a mobile device. They look good on that format, but its a whole different world on a full size screen.

 

[Mark_RP]

Bending Dies:

How do you produce that curved and grooved radius?

 

[Jim Johnstone]

How do you produce that curved and grooved radius?

Look up at post 1263. He has a rotary table on the mill for machining the rads.

 

[fortyfour]

How do you produce that curved and grooved radius?

Jim Johnstone has the answer. If I had a band saw, I'd probably take off the excess and cut out a blank. Finish that radius on the rotary table as in this pic. (also posted up above in post 1263)

For the groove, I use a right angle attachment for the Bridgeport, as per this image:



That's for my fork mitering set up, but you get the same basic idea for this. So flip that right angle attachment so it's facing to the right, replace hole saw with ball end mill and away you go. I remove excess material by creating some steps before I do a few finishing passes with the ball end mill which quickens the job considerably.

Right angle attachment removed, drill chuck put in place and the holes are drilled / finished every 10°. Hope that helps!

 

[R. Deschain]

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NICE work!

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

Kristofer, what do you use to prep your tubing prior to welding? Scotchbrite? Emery cloth? Acetone?

 

[Jim Johnstone]

Kristofer, it's hard to see in your pic, but does your rotary table have a second flat, that allows you to stand it up on end and put the grooves in, without the use of the right angle head?

 

[hewey]

Beautiful bikes, beautiful workmanship.

 

[fortyfour]

Kristofer, what do you use to prep your tubing prior to welding? Scotchbrite? Emery cloth? Acetone?

Tubing prep is as such: 180-250 Grit Emery on outside about 4" up from joint. Some times a slightly used piece helps to polish it a bit more. I have a small 3/8" x 4" steel dowel pin with a 1" long split at the end that I will spin emery onto it to an appropriate diameter to then clean the inside of the tube to about 2-3" up the inside of the tube. De-burr with 6" half round file (I do not bevel the end of the tubes - nice fit up with little to no beveling). On a 32" 1/4" rod I put a cloth and use it like a ram-rod to clean out all the excess chips/stuff from the length of the inside of the tube. THEN I'll take all the tubes up to the house and actually wash the ends with a warm soap and water rinse with scotchbrite pad (Green - typically with the sponge type where it's sponge/scotchbrite combined. Holds more soapy solution.). I then dry inside and out. In the summer, I'll stand them end long in the sun for a few minutes or if in winter/spring/fall, I'll rack them up in front of the heater in the shop so hot air runs through them. Just before I weld, I'll do a final prep of denatured alcohol wipe down (inside and out) with a lint free cloth. Any holes are taped off, and tubes are then laid out on a clean surface before being loaded into the tool/jig to be tacked. I have a stainless steel brush (small with fine bristles) on hand marked for steel and titanium (separate! Never use the same brush or tools on different materials when finishing) to be used to clean up a joint post tack or if something needs a little extra clean up as I'm welding.

Kristofer, it's hard to see in your pic, but does your rotary table have a second flat, that allows you to stand it up on end and put the grooves in, without the use of the right angle head?

It does but when standing it on end, there is a bit of backlash on the ro-tab, so it gets a bit more pronounced if flipped on end and using an end mill (I'd like to upgrade it to a nicer, higher quality ro-tab at some point). It's really meant to be laid flat I'd say.

The right angle attachment is super solid and relatively quick/easy to set up and get on center.

 

[Jim Johnstone]

Kristofer, are you using aluminum for your bending dies? If so how are you finding it holds up?

 

[fortyfour]

Kristofer, are you using aluminum for your bending dies? If so how are you finding it holds up?

Hey Jim: The dies above will be sent out to be hard anodized to give the surfaces a little extra protection. But, so far they have held up well.

One thing to note is that I am using .028 to .035" wall thickness tubing. So it's relatively thin but that of course creates other problems since the wall thicknesses are so thin. So not that hard on the dies, but proper set up and maintaining point of tangency throughout the bend is critical. Fully supporting the tube as it is being bent is also paramount. When bending a tube, the side facing the die (inside) is under compression while the side facing the follower (outside) is under tension. With that scenario, if it's not fully supported and point of tangency is not maintained, then that is when you develop kinks, bulges, etc. Those two basic principles can be applied to any tube bending set up and there's more than one way to do the job but if you adhere to those two rules, all should be good.

Another point I should make is that the bends are on the larger side which helps. I'm not pushing the tubes too hard basically.

Hope that helps.

 

[fatkidracer]

love the space, love the layout, love the work!

from one welder/fabricator/maker to another i have a few comments/questions.

have you tried a flex head torch setup?

where are you getting your 4130 tubing? i hope not mcmaster carr?!

your prep is amazing and it shows in your work!

props to you for wearing a respirator! even when i weld dirty **** i never do mostly because i wear glasses and it fogs them up no matter what mask i try.

 

[fortyfour]

love the space, love the layout, love the work!

from one welder/fabricator/maker to another i have a few comments/questions.

have you tried a flex head torch setup?

I have not but I really like this CK 130 I have. It's not "technically" a flex head, but you can customize it a bit which I have. The vast majority of clearance issues comes in to play with the cup sizes and acute angles.

where are you getting your 4130 tubing? i hope not mcmaster carr?!

HA! No. Typically I was sourcing it from Dillsburg in PA, but when they went out of business most times I source it from Aircraft Spruce or occasionally Wicks Aircraft Supply. But I've found Aircraft Spruce to have what I need at competitive prices.

your prep is amazing and it shows in your work!

props to you for wearing a respirator! even when i weld dirty **** i never do mostly because i wear glasses and it fogs them up no matter what mask i try.

Thank you. Have you tried any of 3M's products? I use their 7500 mask with appropriate filters. My safety glasses if I use them in tandem with the mask fit nicely and do not fog up, but then again, I don't wear glasses so I can't say if that will effect you or not? One interesting thing about that mask is that the vent for it faces down. Not sure if that would help.

 

[fatkidracer]

Thank you. Have you tried any of 3M's products? I use their 7500 mask with appropriate filters. My safety glasses if I use them in tandem with the mask fit nicely and do not fog up, but then again, I don't wear glasses so I can't say if that will effect you or not? One interesting thing about that mask is that the vent for it faces down. Not sure if that would help.

yes that's what we have at my shop, but 40amp precision work is not what we do here, more in 200-300amp pound the wire to it or 25-28 volt fluxcore type stuff, all hot and heavy. some of my guys rock the Miller hood with the filter fanny pack but i don't weld enough anymore to justify $1200+ for a hood.

here is some GTAW for ya!

 

[Jim Johnstone]

HA! No. Typically I was sourcing it from Dillsburg in PA, but when they went out of business most times I source it from Aircraft Spruce or occasionally Wicks Aircraft Supply. But I've found Aircraft Spruce to have what I need at competitive prices.

What about your sources for bicycle specific pieces, such as BB shells and dropouts?