46 Merc PU Engine overhaul

[Torque1st]

It looks like there are little sheet metal locknuts on the rods. Some of them look mangled. The pieces may be from them. The flathead I helped rebuild did not use those locknuts. Personally I have never seen those used on an engine but I am a long ways from seeing everything. I have never seen internal engine bolts safety wired with what looks like baling wire either.

Some of the flathead engine guys over at FTE may have a better idea.

 

[e-tek]

It looks like there are little sheet metal locknuts on the rods. Some of them look mangled. The pieces may be from them. The flathead I helped rebuild did not use those locknuts. Personally I have never seen those used on an engine but I am a long ways from seeing everything. I have never seen internal engine bolts safety wired with what looks like baling wire either.

Some of the flathead engine guys over at FTE may have a better idea.

Thanks Torque - really appreciate your help. I totally forgot about FTE - haven't been on there in a while! Those locknuts looked odd to me too. They where on all but 2 nuts (so maybe they fell off and where part of the issue?). Not sure if the wire is spec either!

 

[e-tek]

Here's a better pic of the shards....

 

[custom1]

Hey good thread.

Are those pieces even metal? They look odd.

On the first head picture-What is that mark on the second cylinder from the left at about 1 or 2 o'clock? Right at the edge of the gasket.

I have one of these engines (ford not merc) apart in my shed. It was in the 46 I had but smoked bad and was pulled and replaced with a sb chevy 400. I pulled the heads and found the cyl walls pitted from sitting at some point with water in it. I had to keep it though. Might try to fix it to put in something someday.....

John

 

[Torque1st]

Without a magnifying glass those look almost like cast iron fragments. Clean them up and take a better look. With that goo all over everything it is hard to tell.

 

[porschedude996TT]

It looks like there are little sheet metal locknuts on the rods. Some of them look mangled. The pieces may be from them. The flathead I helped rebuild did not use those locknuts. Personally I have never seen those used on an engine but I am a long ways from seeing everything. I have never seen internal engine bolts safety wired with what looks like baling wire either.

Some of the flathead engine guys over at FTE may have a better idea.

Torque, those are called Palnuts.

http://www.mrgusa.com/pdfs/83-89palnut.pdf

They are pretty flimsy and will bend if the socket is taken off at an angle. The safety wire is of the time as well. Post WW2 a bunch of things started looking like old radial aircraft engine stuff. Or maybe the other way around...LOL

 

[porschedude996TT]

Here's a better pic of the shards....

That looks more like gasket material or aluminum to me. Use a magnet on it to see if it is ferrous or not.

 

[e-tek]

Hey good thread.

Are those pieces even metal? They look odd.

On the first head picture-What is that mark on the second cylinder from the left at about 1 or 2 o'clock? Right at the edge of the gasket.

I have one of these engines (ford not merc) apart in my shed. It was in the 46 I had but smoked bad and was pulled and replaced with a sb chevy 400. I pulled the heads and found the cyl walls pitted from sitting at some point with water in it. I had to keep it though. Might try to fix it to put in something someday.....

John

John - If you mean the bit of a wobble in the gasket edge, I'm not usre what that is, but it doesn't look "through" to the cylinder....what do you make of that mark?

Lemme get this straight....you swapped a Flathead for a sbc in a FORD truck? Sacriledge!!! Glad you kept it though!! Was it a 46 Ford 1/2ton? Didn't the new onner want the mill? I'm biased though - I love old original stuff!

That looks more like gasket material or aluminum to me. Use a magnet on it to see if it is ferrous or not.

Good call - that stuff was not ferrous - likely gasket or other goo. I did find one or two smaller bits ot steel though...we'll have to see what they turn out to be.

 

[Torque1st]

Palnuts is a brand name. I have used them a few times. The nut I looked at had one of the edges broken off. I am not certain why they would use those nuts in there tho. I doubt they would do any good in that application.

I hate it when people swap Cheby mills into a Ford.

 

[eborcim]

I like the security wires

Was the motor oil that milky when you started on the last trip?

I wouldn't be surprised if you have to replace the cam as well b/c the lobe surfaces will not have been well-lubed.

Keep us updated on the progress!

 

[custom1]

This is the mark. It's in the head not the gasket. Maybe just the way the pic is? Looks like a hole or groove under the gasket.
It sort of reminds me of a 2.5L in a Pontiac Phoenix I owned once. I don't remember what the gasket looked like , but there was a 1/4" wide and 1/4" deep groove cut in the head between two cylinders and the water jacket from the compression and the fact I tried to drive it 20 miles home stopping to put water in every 2.

View media item 1916
The 46 was a business coupe.(avatar) I sold it over 20 years ago now when I needed money for a down payment on my first house.Its a long story that I won't hijack your thread telling.
The buyer was not made aware of the flathead.
The sbc was just a cost effective way to get to some rod shows. It was the late 70's and I was in my late teens. Would I do it again? I guess it depends on the circumstance and funds.

John

 

[e-tek]

Thanks John - hope you didn't think I was slagging you for the engine swap - none of my business anyways!!! I'll take a look at that spot on the head tomorrow- - GOOD EYE!

 

[gahrajmahal]

Rebuilt a flathead ford. Machine shops lied about their experience and abilities. Took a long time and cost a lot of money. Find a shop that has other flatheads being machined. It will still cost a lot of money. Good luck finding the specialized tools for the valve assemblies.

 

[e-tek]

Rebuilt a flathead ford. Machine shops lied about their experience and abilities. Took a long time and cost a lot of money. Find a shop that has other flatheads being machined. It will still cost a lot of money. Good luck finding the specialized tools for the valve assemblies.

Sorry to hear about your experience. But machining rates are the same regardless of engine at the shop I deal with. As well, there's only one tool you need to buy (but could be made) for the valve assemblies and it was $18.00. I made the other from welding rod, which was a puller for the retainers.

BUT - I was just reviewing the manual and info I have on the job and - since you have also done it - I am inclined to believe you!!! It looks like a CRAPPY job....either I'll leave then as is (it ran fine before ker-plunking!), or have the shop do them. Thanks for the advice!!

 

[ihredo4]

They are pretty flimsy and will bend if the socket is taken off at an angle. The safety wire is of the time as well. Post WW2 a bunch of things started looking like old radial aircraft engine stuff. Or maybe the other way around...LOL

I would have to disagree on that as a signn of the times. I would say that engine has been apart before. That is just plain sloppy work. That is how it would be done today. I restored a McCormick-Deering O-4 that was made in Oct of 1940 and that was some of the nicest wiretyeing I have ever seen. The gauge of wire is large like what was used on this but it was done by someone who knew what he was doing. Incidentaly when I worked in the aircraft we had to do a lot of tying each day. And pass safety checks when doing them.

 

[e-tek]

Well, the patient died....

Nice crack in the centre main web....Now I'll be looking for another block...(boo hoo).

As luck would have it, the in-laws have a wrecked 39 Ford truck laying in a field. Has a partial engine in it - I was going to take the body for a rat rod shell one day - now I'll be going up to score the engine!

 

[Torque1st]

Bummer but good news about a possible replacement. It will be great if that block is good. How did you find the crack?

 

[e-tek]

Bummer but good news about a possible replacement. It will be great if that block is good. How did you find the crack?

It's big enough that I should have seem it as soon as I pulled the pan off! Once the sludge and gasket was off and I was pulling pistons I saw it. Runs the same way as the oil pan edge, pretty much seperating the cross web from the side block.

Crazy because - of course - it ran so damn well!

 

[Torque1st]

Any way we can see the crack?
I never thought I would use this:

 

[e-tek]

Ask and ye shall recieve!!!

I can't believe the SIZE of this thing - it's like the San Andreas fault!! Called my engine builder and he gave me the name of someone who might have a rebuilt block...called him and as luck would have it...i'll be able to pick it up tomorrow.

Also - I found a rebuild tag on the bellhousing, which was hidden by grease and dirt buildup. My block had already been bored 3-over and mains 1-over, so there wan't going to be much room to clean it up as is. She led a good long life!

First I saw this "little" crack....hmmm maybe repairable...

THEN I SAW THIS!!

Here's the repair tag:

No rush to finish it...just put all the iron away for the winter!

 

[Torque1st]

Does that crack run all the way up into the cooling jacket?

One plant I worked at would rebuild diesel blocks and heads even if they had a hole blown out of them. It involved a lot of prep and a furnace to heat the blocks up red hot so that they could be brazed then re-machined. I don't think a flathead block is quite that valuable yet.

 

[e-tek]

Does that crack run all the way up into the cooling jacket?

One plant I worked at would rebuild diesel blocks and heads even if they had a hole blown out of them. It involved a lot of prep and a furnace to heat the blocks up red hot so that they could be brazed then re-machined. I don't think a flathead block is quite that valuable yet.

I'm guessing it must Torque - the pan was filled with water/antifreeze.

 

[tdkkart]

I don't think a flathead block is quite that valuable yet.

There's alot of flathead motors out there, and lst I knew you could buy a new casting, somebody is re-casting them.

 

[ddawg16]

'Tis just a scratch'...

Hey, through a little JB Weld on there and slap it back together.....

And it ran?

Did you see if you could pry the part apart? Can't tell from the photos...but it almost looks like a casting mark....odd mark...but...ya never know...

 

[tdkkart]

And it ran?

Doesn't have to be structurally sound to run.
Remember the old GM 5.7 diesel's?? I've seen 1 with the center 3 main webs pulled out, still running just fine, just an extra knock or 2.
I've seen a big John Deere 6 cylinder diesel with the crank twisted in half a the center web, ran fine too.

 

[e-tek]

Ran like a dream - I'm so bummed!!!
Looked at that block this am - wrong size - a 236, not a 221 (3 3/16, vs 3 1/6 bore). Then went and looked at a '48 complete engine - he says it ran when removed....looked like sh!t - and no gaurantee. Then I called my parts guy - recon blocks (boiled, mag'd, gauranteed) $550.00. Gonna be $1000 either way I look at it - and right after I sprung for the Lincoln 180...double doh!
What to do what to do....

 

[tfi racing]

That's quite the crack,wonder if the coolant ever froze and started it way back when...naaah it don't ever get that cold in saskabush!Saw this one on the local craigslist,tempted to grab it just because(future rod project?)!Its a bit far away from Saskatoon,if you are interested in it,I can probably help in getting it out to you.

http://victoria.en.craigslist.ca/pts/1428064548.html

 

[e-tek]

That's quite the crack,wonder if the coolant ever froze and started it way back when...naaah it don't ever get that cold in saskabush!Saw this one on the local craigslist,tempted to grab it just because(future rod project?)!Its a bit far away from Saskatoon,if you are interested in it,I can probably help in getting it out to you.

http://victoria.en.craigslist.ca/pts/1428064548.html

Much appreciated! I'll keep looking around here, but if I don't find anything suitable after awhile, I'll definitely be looking west!

 

[Torque1st]

I'm guessing it must Torque - the pan was filled with water/antifreeze.

I was just wondering if that was the crack that leaked or there was still another one to be found. It is quite a ways from the water jacket. If that is the one I would expect that the crack would be visible all the way up both sides of the web and then maybe Y out into the water jacket. -It is just me digging deep into anything I do a postmortem on.

 

[e-tek]

I was just wondering if that was the crack that leaked or there was still another one to be found. It is quite a ways from the water jacket. If that is the one I would expect that the crack would be visible all the way up both sides of the web and then maybe Y out into the water jacket. -It is just me digging deep into anything I do a postmortem on.

I hear ya torque - and i want to know that too. truth is, the crank is still in as i been at my 'real' job since then! ;( Next wknd i'll get to fish stripping it, so we'll see what's further in!

 

[Elroy]

Elroy trusts that you're aware that "Speedway Bill" has been into Flatheads for at least a week or two

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/productsummary.aspx?free_text|9/21/2009 21:56:38 PM=Flathead&deptId=0

Elroy might suggest that you contact them for sources

 

[e-tek]

Elroy trusts that you're aware that "Speedway Bill" has been into Flatheads for at least a week or two

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/productsummary.aspx?free_text|9/21/2009 21:56:38 PM=Flathead&deptId=0

Elroy might suggest that you contact them for sources

Me thinks I should put one of these "set-up" blocks in my truck. Even has threaded inserts to bolt all the accessories on! And only 300clams!!

 

[rsanter]

wow
that is one hell of a crack

it can be fixed if you want.
you will need to drill the ends of the crack and V it out a bit, then torch weld the crack with a steel filler rod of a silicone-bronze rod

you will need to pre-heat the block to make it easier to get the weld area up to temp.
I like the trick of using a BBQ to heat up the cast parts before welding

there is also a service that can save about any cast iron part. the V grind the damaged part of it and use a metal deposition process to fill in the area with actual iron material.
their repairs are nearly invisable when done

bob

 

[rsanter]

Oh
if you dont save that block I might suggest that you clean it up. dress it out wwith all the exterrior parts (no internals). paint it up real pretty and put a piece of glass on top of it.

either use it or sell it as a man-cave beer table or a not so manly coffee table

bob

 

[FoMoCoPower]

I love how the front end looks on that style Mercury truck.....waaaaaay nicer then the same year Ford. Find me an M100 tailgate for my `61 Unibody.

 

[Torque1st]

Elroy trusts that you're aware that "Speedway Bill" has been into Flatheads for at least a week or two

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/productsummary.aspx?free_text|9/21/2009 21:56:38 PM=Flathead&deptId=0

Elroy might suggest that you contact them for sources

Why did you have to post things like that? I am still drooling. If I had known about that place I would not have had to fabricate half as many parts over the years.

 

[TRWTOW]

stick with it great looking rare truck

 

[e-tek]

Here's where the metal pieces came from....the timing gear shredded itself....

 

[Torque1st]

Damn those timing gears usually last forever. I wonder what caused that, another piece of metal?

 

[Keep]

To bad you were not closer. There is a guy around here that has over 50 flatheads just sitting outside :| He was selling them for $50 each or by lot if you wanted.