6 point vs. 12 point sockets

[davethorik]

That's a terrible deal.

These folks lure you guys in with these large sets of sockets you will never use. Even 8mm is too small for 3/8" drive. 6mm is stupid. And the sizes over 19mm....21 is pushing the limit of the drive size. The bigger sizes need torque values no 3/8" drive can handle. These sockets aren't completely useless, you can use them to install hardware.

But for the price, you can get a set of Snap On new off the truck on a deal. 3/8" metric are mechanics bread and butter sockets. Get the best quality you can afford.

The Proto set has 6-26 no skips for $116 on amazon. Snap on has 10-19 for $179 per their site. I fail to see how the Proto is a horrible deal when you get a lot more sockets for a lot less money.

Proto is not a junk brand either, I wanted an industrial USA made set of the likes of Proto Wright Williams or SK.

Snap on sells 3/8 metric chrome sockets up to 26mm individually (26 is largest size in the Proto set) so they must think it's useless too.

 

[shoggoth80]

For what it is worth, I break loose smaller stuff with a 3/8s plenty (8mm, 7mm) but I won't install with that size... I'd snap the fastener. Conversely I'd install larger with a 3/8" but not break loose, or torque.

Generally a little crossover is ok. 1/4" up to like 13mm or 14mm. 3/8" from 10mm up to 21mm, 1/2" from 17mm up.

Proto is good stuff. However, I do see anything in 3/8" above 21mm as pretty much overkill. Usually larger than that is either truck, or suspension/front end work in my experience/field. Very often impacts + wrenches takes care of that BS. Lol.

Industrial tools are (in my experience) a more economical way to get a solid performing product, that can take the use. I've got primarily Armstrong combo wrenches that are 6pt on the box end (home tools, not work). You know what I'/m not getting rid of? Wright makes some really nice wrenches in my opinion. I think they call it Wrightgrip. Good stuff. I've got a Wright 3/4" ratchet at work. SK has some great chrome. Wipes down easy. I've not broken a single Proto socket, or a standard SK. I did break a universal swivel SK, but that was 100% my bad. So I'd say that thought process is sound.

 

[HaroRider]

I use these when I believe the fastener is going to strip, and most times even using these I can still re use the nut or fastner.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0007GGUEC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[bsaint]

We have a Gedore 1/2" socket set at work that goes from 8mm to 32 or 34mm.

 

[franzdom]

Why does it have to be a battle? It's not 6v12, it's right tool for the job.

 

[franzdom]

People really need to learn how to use search

 

[bsaint]

People really need to learn how to use search

Who cares lol? I had to find one thread anyways

 

[Wakefield]

Yeah- more area in the wrong spot. They are a step backward in socket evolution. Don't get spline. Get the socket designed for your fastener.

Spline are for spline? (fastener head)

 

[franzdom]

Who cares lol? I had to find one thread anyways

You should care if you learned something. You could be thanking me instead of being a jerk.
The thread started JUST 9/18/2015 would have been better than bringing up an older one. The best reason I can think is it has recent discussion with current members.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=303938

 

[Ratchet Guy]

Think I haven't seen a 12pt impact socket on 3/8's , most common impact sockets are on 6pt. I saw 12pt impact on the bigger sizes.

 

[bsaint]

You should care if you learned something. You could be thanking me instead of being a jerk.
The thread started JUST 9/18/2015 would have been better than bringing up an older one. The best reason I can think is it has recent discussion with current members.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=303938

Well let me tell you something you don't really care about and then get on you when you're not so thankful that I told you haha. I could care less that you showed me how to use google to search our forum. When really I would be thankful if you showed me the best way to get the best search results from our own search function.

Also you came off as a smart *** with your post. Guess next time you want to be helpful, you should choose a different angle.

 

[franzdom]

Well let me tell you something you don't really care about and then get on you when you're not so thankful that I told you haha. I could care less that you showed me how to use google to search our forum. When really I would be thankful if you showed me the best way to get the best search results from our own search function.

Also you came off as a smart *** with your post. Guess next time you want to be helpful, you should choose a different angle.

Interesting because you said you used google for your search.
You can't deny that the thread from last week would have been more appropriate to reply to.

 

[BK13]

You should care if you learned something. You could be thanking me instead of being a jerk.
The thread started JUST 9/18/2015 would have been better than bringing up an older one. The best reason I can think is it has recent discussion with current members.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=303938

Yeah, 'cause a thread suggesting nine point sockets is so useful...

 

[Wakefield]

As to the right socket for a job and a past thread about a BMW with a chewed up Lug Bolt,I just noticed that 17 mm. sockets I have are not broached deep enough to completely engage a 17 mm. lug bolt that I have that I think fell off of a BMW (I don't have a BMW) even the deep impact Wright 1/2" drive socket doesn't completely engage the head because of its shallow broach inside. The wrench head of the lug bolt is tall.
Wright 3/4" drive Impact Shallow socket does engage it fully but I don't know if that big shouldered thing would fit all the way into the opening in the wheel to fully engage the bolt.

There was a thread on here a few months ago about deep sockets having shallow broaching in the wrenching end (what I called "nut stop") and/vs. deep or full length broaching which I think older Wright and craftsman had -might pertain to tough Lug Bolts with tall heads.

 

[franzdom]

As to the right socket for a job and a past thread about a BMW with a chewed up Lug Bolt,I just noticed that 17 mm. sockets I have are not broached deep enough to completely engage a 17 mm. lug bolt that I have that I think fell off of a BMW (I don't have a BMW) even the deep impact Wright 1/2" drive socket doesn't completely engage the head because of its shallow broach inside. The wrench head of the lug bolt is tall.
Wright 3/4" drive Impact Shallow socket does engage it fully but I don't know if that big shouldered thing would fit all the way into the opening in the wheel to fully engage the bolt.

I still really like the shallow broaches. It seems if the socket is fully engaged it doesn't matter if the entire bolt head is covered.
I used an 8mm deep (1/4" drive Snap-On 6 point) for a distributor cap yesterday and it was really nice not to have to use a screwdriver to start the screws because the broach was so shallow it just engaged the threads before the socket bottomed out on the cap.

 

[franzdom]

Also you came off as a smart *** with your post. Guess next time you want to be helpful, you should choose a different angle.

Very original, nobody has accused me of being a smart *** before.

 

[toronto0922]

FWIW, there is absolutely no difference between 6 point and 12 point socket surface area engagement on a fastener.

It might be a little bit counterintuitive, but there has been a lot of testing done in this area.

I would think that 6-point sockets are more common because they are slightly cheaper to produce.

Remember that when they manufacture bolts and sockets there are standard tolerances for production, and when you use a 6-point socket on a fastener the flat surface is never in contact once you start applying load. A 12-point socket would contact a fastener in the same areas as a 6-point.

You can read up on the laboratory testing that has been done on this (many research tests done), I even think wikipedia has this mentioned somewhere.

The strength of a socket (in torsion) is measured at the thinnest part of the socket, so in terms of torsional strength (or how much torque you can apply) there isn't any difference either.

The difference in the strength of a socket is more related to the steel alloy being used and the wall thickness of the socket at the thinnest part, so you could have a 12 point socket that is much stronger than a 6 point and vice versa.

The most important thing I guess is to get a quality socket, one that has been engineered properly with good quality alloy.

 

[jerseykat1]

sorry to rehash something that was just discussed this year ... I think I even read the thread when it was new ... but I forgot ... I was thinking of buying some 12 points and really couldn't figure out why I really needed 12 point sockets ... some of us wake up in a new world everyday and I have slept quite a few times since the other thread was on

No need to apologize. Haters are just going to hate.. No way around it.

I use 12 point only for 12 point bolts and that's it.. Very rare do I come across 12 point fasteners.. Usually cylinder head bolts are 12 point and some European cars use 12 point fasteners. But it's good to keep a set on hand.

6 point all day every day.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[bulletpruf]

FWIW, there is absolutely no difference between 6 point and 12 point socket surface area engagement on a fastener.

It might be a little bit counterintuitive, but there has been a lot of testing done in this area.

Not sure I agree with you. I can tell you that I am 100% convinced that a 12 point socket will strip the head of a bolt quicker than a 6 point will. And I'm assuming that's all about surface area engagement.

I do like to to have at least two sets of sockets on hand for a particular drive (1/4, 3/8, 1/2) -- 12 point standard depth, and then 6 point deep impact. That, along with my wrenches, covers just about everything.

 

[anndel]

For impacting, all of my sets are 6 point. The rest are a mix of 12 and 6 pt, probably equally divided half 6 pt and half 12 pt. I use either or with no issues.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

FWIW, there is absolutely no difference between 6 point and 12 point socket surface area engagement on a fastener.

It might be a little bit counterintuitive, but there has been a lot of testing done in this area.

My intuition says a new 12pt/6pt socket makes no real difference on new bolts. What do the tests say about the difference on rusted or damaged bolt heads? Also, sockets wear in use. I've seen plenty of 12 point sockets worn to the point that they damage tight fasteners. VERY rare with 6 pt sockets..

 

[DBendr]

For impacting, all of my sets are 6 point. The rest are a mix of 12 and 6 pt, probably equally divided half 6 pt and half 12 pt. I use either or with no issues.

Interesting. My short impacts are 12 and the long are 6. My reason is when there is a clearance issue requiring a shorter socket a 12 pt might be beneficial.I always reach for long sockets first no matter what I'm wrenching.
Just like I always grab from my extra long wrench drawer first unless it's obviously an issue.HA. Same with screwdrivers. Long first.

 

[Freeborn John]

FWIW, there is absolutely no difference between 6 point and 12 point socket surface area engagement on a fastener.

It might be a little bit counterintuitive, but there has been a lot of testing done in this area.

I would think that 6-point sockets are more common because they are slightly cheaper to produce.

Remember that when they manufacture bolts and sockets there are standard tolerances for production, and when you use a 6-point socket on a fastener the flat surface is never in contact once you start applying load. A 12-point socket would contact a fastener in the same areas as a 6-point.

You can read up on the laboratory testing that has been done on this (many research tests done), I even think wikipedia has this mentioned somewhere.

The strength of a socket (in torsion) is measured at the thinnest part of the socket, so in terms of torsional strength (or how much torque you can apply) there isn't any difference either.

The difference in the strength of a socket is more related to the steel alloy being used and the wall thickness of the socket at the thinnest part, so you could have a 12 point socket that is much stronger than a 6 point and vice versa.

The most important thing I guess is to get a quality socket, one that has been engineered properly with good quality alloy.

Meanwhile, in the real world, lets find ourselves a horrible and heavily corroded bolt, those nice sharp edges have gone off it and it looks like a lump of ****.
I'll have the six siders, you have the twelve pointers, good luck with that.

 

[abvw]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73245

The above link shows that all modern sockets with off corner engagement have the same contact points, whether they are 12pt or 6pt.

You really shouldn't be using 12pt on iffy fasteners. If you slip with a 12pt socket, its time to replace the fastener.

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk

 

[AutoTeck84]

Its smart to have both. When you have worked on things long enough you know what bolts are prone to stripping by what its used for and amount of rust, dirt ect. When dealing with low torque fasteners 12 point socvets aren't going to cause any damage and only make you faster moving from bolt to bolt. People act like 12pts strip everything they touch but only in the most extreme of cases would this be the case. IMHO spline works great as well. Tried a spline on a rounded nut one time and spun it right off.

 

[The Toolest Guy]

I can't believe we still have idiots arguing about this. It is not about where the socket contacts the fastener. It is about the major and minor diameters.
Let us take a 19mm nut for example. The distance from flat to flat is approx 19mm. But the distance from point to point is around 21.939mm. This is using maths not measurements. Measurements will vary but everything I have measured is still over 21.8mm

Now we have to look at the socket. First a 19mm 6 point socket. The measurement from point to point is around 22mm. The measurement flat to flat is around 19.0xmm. This shows us the socket is going to fit on the nut.
Now a 19mm 12 point socket. The measurement point to point is around 22mm. But the measurement flat to flat is around 20mm. The smallest measurement I have from 5 different 19mm 12 point sockets is 19.9xmm, and the largest is 20.2xmm.

So for a 19mm 6 point socket to strip a 19mm nut you have to remove the material from it's 21.939mm corners. 21.939 - 19 = 2.939mm from the corner tip to the center that has to be removed or deformed.
A 19mm 12 point socket to strip a 19mm nut you have to remove the material from it's 21.939mm corners. Using the smallest measurement 21.939mm - 19.9mm = 2.093mm from the corner tip to the center that has to be removed or deformed.

As you can from the numbers they are over 40% different. This measurement of major and minor inside diameters of the sockets is also why a 6 point will often remove a heavily damaged socket that a 12 point just can't.

Whether the 6 point or 12 point contact at the same place before deformation of the nut or bolt is really irrelevant. As math shows the 6 point will remove fasteners with greater damage due to the smaller minor inside diameter.
Who cares if the fastener is damaged? You want it out so you can replace it. A 6 point will do that.

 

[Gmonkee]

Ratchets used to have 20 odd teeth average decades ago. Some sets didn't even carry one. Twelve points gave better entry to fasteners in tight corners.

Later on 45 t was average and this debate began. Now gearless and even 72 t is low making 6 point slide on easy with but a slight twist is common. You guys have to know the past to understand the present better.

A socket set with just a breaker bar now is unheard of. I use one and only speed is lost.

 

[RRmech]

All my sockets were 6 point, while working on the railroad.
The last thing I needed was to round a nut or bolt.

Steve

 

[Stevenn1]

The only area I try to use a 12 point socket is on square head bolts. They work great.

8-point sockets work best on 4-point bolts.

12mm 12-point shallow (sometimes flex) is common on dropping drive shafts.

 

[Rossco]

Both have there place and both have pro's and con's.

6 point for instance can be used on smaller bolt heads. Also turning the drive 1/4 gets another bite just like a 12pt.

12 point can be used to turn Square shanks like Taps.

Allot of 12 point fasteners are turning up on equipment these days. Make sense really as a 5/8 bolt can be turned with a 5/8 socket.

 

[geartow]

12mm 12-point shallow (sometimes flex) is common on dropping drive shafts.

A lot of drive lines are 12 point 3/8,1/2,12mm. Then you have 6 point 5/16 ,7/16,16mm,17 mm, 18 mm. Then there are torx, hex( allen), and inverted torx. And what I have heard but not seen is a 23 mm drive live bolt. I drive a wrecker and remove a lot of drive shafts to tow them.

 

[drink]

From Wiki:

Socket types

There are two main types of socket wrenches: impact sockets and hand sockets. Common sockets are colloquially referred to by counting the number of "points" (pointed corners of walls) present in the shape of the socket nut opening. For example, the hexagon shape is commonly called a "6 point" socket because the hexagon forms 6 "points" where walls intersect to create six sharp pointed corners. This system of description using "points" generally works well in avoiding confusion, with the exception of "8-point" and "12-point" where two very incompatible shapes exist with both having 8 "points" and 12 "points". The vast majority of larger common nut and bolt heads are produced with the 6-point hexagonal gripping shape. Less frequently used shapes include the square 4-point, triple square 12-point (not to be confused with 12-point double hexagon), octagonal 8-point (not to be confused with the more common 8-point double square shape). These less common shapes are typically found in special applications or particular industries such as aircraft, PVC plumbing fittings or German and UK made automobiles. With rail cars, valve adjustment screws and pipe plugs the 4-point square shaped driver can still be found in wide use both male and female configurations. Nuts and bolt heads are also produced in 12-point double hexagon shapes and various types of splines more common to aircraft and aerospace applications. Most manufacturers of sockets for larger bolts produce them in 6-point (hexagonal) and limited sizes of 12-point (double-hexagonal) configurations.

 

[bulletpruf]

I can't believe we still have idiots arguing about this. It is not about where the socket contacts the fastener. It is about the major and minor diameters.
Let us take a 19mm nut for example. The distance from flat to flat is approx 19mm. But the distance from point to point is around 21.939mm. This is using maths not measurements. Measurements will vary but everything I have measured is still over 21.8mm

Now we have to look at the socket. First a 19mm 6 point socket. The measurement from point to point is around 22mm. The measurement flat to flat is around 19.0xmm. This shows us the socket is going to fit on the nut.
Now a 19mm 12 point socket. The measurement point to point is around 22mm. But the measurement flat to flat is around 20mm. The smallest measurement I have from 5 different 19mm 12 point sockets is 19.9xmm, and the largest is 20.2xmm.

So for a 19mm 6 point socket to strip a 19mm nut you have to remove the material from it's 21.939mm corners. 21.939 - 19 = 2.939mm from the corner tip to the center that has to be removed or deformed.
A 19mm 12 point socket to strip a 19mm nut you have to remove the material from it's 21.939mm corners. Using the smallest measurement 21.939mm - 19.9mm = 2.093mm from the corner tip to the center that has to be removed or deformed.

As you can from the numbers they are over 40% different. This measurement of major and minor inside diameters of the sockets is also why a 6 point will often remove a heavily damaged socket that a 12 point just can't.

Whether the 6 point or 12 point contact at the same place before deformation of the nut or bolt is really irrelevant. As math shows the 6 point will remove fasteners with greater damage due to the smaller minor inside diameter.
Who cares if the fastener is damaged? You want it out so you can replace it. A 6 point will do that.

Bingo. Best explanation I've seen.

 

[youngunn2008]

I can't believe we still have idiots arguing about this. It is not about where the socket contacts the fastener. It is about the major and minor diameters.
Let us take a 19mm nut for example. The distance from flat to flat is approx 19mm. But the distance from point to point is around 21.939mm. This is using maths not measurements. Measurements will vary but everything I have measured is still over 21.8mm

Now we have to look at the socket. First a 19mm 6 point socket. The measurement from point to point is around 22mm. The measurement flat to flat is around 19.0xmm. This shows us the socket is going to fit on the nut.
Now a 19mm 12 point socket. The measurement point to point is around 22mm. But the measurement flat to flat is around 20mm. The smallest measurement I have from 5 different 19mm 12 point sockets is 19.9xmm, and the largest is 20.2xmm.

So for a 19mm 6 point socket to strip a 19mm nut you have to remove the material from it's 21.939mm corners. 21.939 - 19 = 2.939mm from the corner tip to the center that has to be removed or deformed.
A 19mm 12 point socket to strip a 19mm nut you have to remove the material from it's 21.939mm corners. Using the smallest measurement 21.939mm - 19.9mm = 2.093mm from the corner tip to the center that has to be removed or deformed.

As you can from the numbers they are over 40% different. This measurement of major and minor inside diameters of the sockets is also why a 6 point will often remove a heavily damaged socket that a 12 point just can't.

Whether the 6 point or 12 point contact at the same place before deformation of the nut or bolt is really irrelevant. As math shows the 6 point will remove fasteners with greater damage due to the smaller minor inside diameter.
Who cares if the fastener is damaged? You want it out so you can replace it. A 6 point will do that.

This mathematically explains my entire experience with 12 pt sockets.

 

[larry_g]

This mathematically explains my entire experience with 12 pt sockets.

Ya better check some of his math, some of it is wrong...

lg
no neat sigline

 

[The Toolest Guy]

Ya better check some of his math, some of it is wrong...

lg
no neat sigline

Hi Larry. If you have different measurements I would love to hear what you came up with. Of course every brand socket and nut/bolt will be different. But I doubt it will be different enough to prove what I said to be false.

Anyone that owns some vernier calipers or other measuring tool, 6 point sockets, and 12 point sockets can check for themselves. This should be pretty much all of Garage Journal.
Measure the largest diameter inside the sockets. 6 and 12 point should be the same. Then measure the minor diameter inside the sockets. The point from where the bolt/nut flat is.
The socket rotates around its center. So for the bolt or nut to stay still while the socket spins, then the bolt/nut must have a smaller major diameter (at the points) than the sockets minor diameter (what ever part of the socket is narrowest directly across from itself and passing through the center).
The only part I may have missed is elastic deformation of the socket and nut. But I think this is really irrelevant........

 

[martin666]

Both sockets have their place, in certain situations one will work better than the other, other situations it just doesn't matter. Way I see it it's just like every other tool, best to have the right tool for the job.

 

[ajchien]

This is the most interesting 6 vs. 12 discussion I have ever read. Mostly due to drink's avatar.

Fixed it for you.

 

[B_Bimmer]

lol... No.

 

[DSLTRK]

12 pt is not as strong and does not grip as well as 6 pt, been debated a million times and tested a thousand.

12 pt is often found on drive-line fasteners and head-bolts, and always in aircraft. Needed for sure if you're a mechanic.

12 pt makes fitting a socket on a fastener 2x as quick.

So, yeah, 12 pt is useful too.