6 Point Whitworth Socket Set

[YoshiMoshi3]

Can anyone please recommend me a whitworth 6 point socket set that I can get off Amazon plz. I don't have whitworth sockets at the moment, so looking to get a variety of sizes.

 

[OneEyedMan]

Are you working on British motorcycles or turbine engines? Trying to remember where else I’ve heard of whitworth sizing on fasteners.

 

[Dave455]

I recommend KoKen.

The quality is excellent, the prices reasonable, and the selection available is superb.

In 3/8” square drive they offer both 6 point and 12 point, and deep sockets, and universal. There are options in 1/4” and 1/2” drive too.

I assume they are on Amazon somewhere!

 

[Wrench-Polisher]

Are you working on British motorcycles or turbine engines? Trying to remember where else I’ve heard of whitworth sizing on fasteners.

Brooklyn hipster locally sourced organic artisan pickle brewery?

 

[OneEyedMan]

Makes a difference if I recommend Gedore or vintage Craftsman or Snap On

 

[Ditchdigger]

Italian and British auto restoration shop foreman checking in. Even here Whitworth is extremely limited use.
Most of my techs use the Toolzone brand Whitworth stuff from Amazon. They are fine. Nothing special, not terrible.

I have a collection of vintage Craftsman Whitworth wrenches, I usually reach for the cheap toolzone stuff first.
What are you working on that you would need this esoteric nonsense?

I would love to find a vintage King **** set of Whitworth combination wrenches

 

[Wrench-Polisher]

Italian and British auto restoration shop foreman checking in. Even here Whitworth is extremely limited use.
Most of my techs use the Toolzone brand Whitworth stuff from Amazon. They are fine. Nothing special, not terrible.

I have a collection of vintage Craftsman Whitworth wrenches, I usually reach for the cheap toolzone stuff first.
What are you working on that you would need this esoteric nonsense?

I would love to find a vintage King **** set of Whitworth combination wrenches

How much does classic fiat 124 goes for? Not spyder but the basic sedan.

 

[Dave455]

I would love to find a vintage King **** set of Whitworth combination wrenches

Most folks in the U.S. forget that from about 1958 most British vehicles use “Unified” rather than BSF / BSW, so for most of the “classics” ( everything from Mini’s to E Types) they are not needed.

Essential for anything older though, and bikes, and machine tools.

The vintage King **** combo’s are o.k. but the Britool are nicer.

Of the modern combination wrenches I really like the Elora, and they are well priced.

Snap On are of course good too (in fact excellent) but the range is limited, and the price is higher.

 

[Dave455]

Makes a difference if I recommend Gedore or vintage Craftsman or Snap On

Gedore never offered 6 point in Whitworth, as far as I can recall. Snap on did, but only in 1/4” drive.

The requirement for 6 point Whitworth is pretty limited. Most of the older fasteners are very good quality, and 12 point is fine. Same applies to machine tools and aerospace stuff.

Only real requirement for 6 point are the modern imported fasteners which tend not to be so good.

Most common use today is BSP pipe fittings which of course you can’t use a socket on anyway.

 

[dscheidt]

Most folks in the U.S. forget that from about 1958 most British vehicles use “Unified” rather than BSF / BSW, so for most of the “classics” ( everything from Mini’s to E Types) they are not needed.

They were still used in stuff that already used them, though, so things like land-rover transmissions had them until the series 3 (and actually, I think there are some in that box, b ecause it wasn't all new). Quite a lot of 60s cars had UNF or UNC fasteners holding most of it together, but still had engines, diffs, and transmissions that hadn't made the switch. Don't need whit stuff for routine tasks, but major overhaul, you did. I recall working on something that had a bracket attached to the engine and transmission. One was a UNF bolt, the other BSF.

the tension knob on Brooks saddles is still a whitworth head, unless it's been changed since the Italians bought them.

 

[Dave455]

They were still used in stuff that already used them, though, so things like land-rover transmissions had them until the series 3 (and actually, I think there are some in that box, b ecause it wasn't all new). Quite a lot of 60s cars had UNF or UNC fasteners holding most of it together, but still had engines, diffs, and transmissions that hadn't made the switch. Don't need whit stuff for routine tasks, but major overhaul, you did. I recall working on something that had a bracket attached to the engine and transmission. One was a UNF bolt, the other BSF.

the tension knob on Brooks saddles is still a whitworth head, unless it's been changed since the Italians bought them.

Oh yes - it’s the design date that’s critical, and there’s a load of stuff that’s a mixture! Land Rovers are notorious, and with a bit of accessorising you can find yourself needing Metric too!

And of course the U.K. didn’t generally adopt the Unified “numbered” series threads, so you will find UNC / UNF for the bigger sizes, and BA for the smaller.

Some transitional stuff, certainly in the aviation world, will have the “ unification” symbol of 3 interlocking rings to denote Unified thread, all else can be assumed to be BSF / BSW / BA

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

I'm asking to complete my 6 point socket collection. Got to collect all sizes like Pokemon cards. So the Tool Zone ones on Amazon are 12 point. Any good 6 points?

Koken good but pricey, anything less expensive for something I hope to never use?

Defiantly times were a whitworth size would have helped me for rusty metric fasteners that shrunk, and the next closest size down in terms of across the flats would have been a whitworth.

 

[Ditchdigger]

How much does classic fiat 124 goes for? Not spyder but the basic sedan.

How long is a piece of string? Which model an early 1.4 base model or a later twin cam? clean driver or sitter?


Most importantly, are you trying to get rid of one? I am actively looking for a good restorable early 124 sedan

 

[Wrench-Polisher]

How long is a piece of string? Which model an early 1.4 base model or a later twin cam? clean driver or sitter?


Most importantly, are you trying to get rid of one? I am actively looking for a good restorable early 124 sedan

Me too. Early one. Early 1.4 base model aka the real deal that the soviets copied. clean driver.

 

[Dave455]

I'm asking to complete my 6 point socket collection. Got to collect all sizes like Pokemon cards. So the Tool Zone ones on Amazon are 12 point. Any good 6 points?

Koken good but pricey, anything less expensive for something I hope to never use?

Defiantly times were a whitworth size would have helped me for rusty metric fasteners that shrunk, and the next closest size down in terms of across the flats would have been a whitworth.

Well, as I said above, the options for 6 point Whitworth are pretty limited, for the reasons given. 12 point no problem.

In fact, the only other manufacturer I can think of that offer 6 point are Deltec, who manufacture impact sockets. Lovely tools, very good quality, and sockets up to 1 1/2” square drive, but they won’t be any less expensive than KoKen.

KoKen, in the scheme of things, I wouldn’t really consider pricey. Sure, I know it depends a bit on where you are (I know they are more expensive in the U.S) and exactly which tools you are looking at (Z series are more costly) but the Whitworth sockets are part of their regular range and not generally costly.

Ultimately, it depends on your perspective. You’re never going to get good tools for comparable prices to really cheap ones.

If you know what you are doing, you can get very good tools for mid prices - that’s where KoKen sit. Or you can get mid grade tools at low prices, but both good and cheap are seldom found on the same tool. That applies to pretty much any tool.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

Thanks for the info. Are there are other across the flats (AF) standards besides SAE, Metric, and Whitworth?

 

[Steve_P]

Astro makes a half size metric set for rusty fasteners.

https://www.amazon.com/Astro-Tools-78311-11-Piece-Socket/dp/B01JBLB8Q8/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[KnurledNut]

In the US, Classic British Spares California has good prices on Koken Whitworth in 6 point 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 drives.
https://www.classicbritishspares.com/products/whitworth-sockets-by-koken-tools?variant=17048347649

 

[Wrench-Polisher]

Well, as I said above, the options for 6 point Whitworth are pretty limited, for the reasons given. 12 point no problem.

In fact, the only other manufacturer I can think of that offer 6 point are Deltec, who manufacture impact sockets. Lovely tools, very good quality, and sockets up to 1 1/2” square drive, but they won’t be any less expensive than KoKen.

KoKen, in the scheme of things, I wouldn’t really consider pricey. Sure, I know it depends a bit on where you are (I know they are more expensive in the U.S) and exactly which tools you are looking at (Z series are more costly) but the Whitworth sockets are part of their regular range and not generally costly.

Ultimately, it depends on your perspective. You’re never going to get good tools for comparable prices to really cheap ones.

If you know what you are doing, you can get very good tools for mid prices - that’s where KoKen sit. Or you can get mid grade tools at low prices, but both good and cheap are seldom found on the same tool. That applies to pretty much any tool.

So how come a set of regular 6 point metric sockets costs 100 bucks and the z series costs 163 bucks from koken? Same drive same socket sizes?

 

[lotus_esprit]

I work with Whitworth / BSF daily on large Blackstone diesel generator engines. I’ve used most brands, couple of bit’s of info I can give is

-Snap On have now discontinued all Whitworth sockets, the only items they still sell are the short pattern spanners/ wrenches, and unsure how much longer they will be available due to lack of demand.
Warranty is non existent on sockets - I wanted to warranty a 2000’s Snap On 1/4 WW socket last month which had worn out and was told sorry no longer available, no alternative offered.

-Flank drive pattern Snap On Whitworth sockets are extremely rare, they updated the standard and metric lines to flank drive in the 60’s / 70’s but it seems they only updated the Whitworth sockets to flank drive in late 90’sor even 2000’s judging by what date codes I have on various Snap On Flank Drive / non Flank drive sets.

In recent years imported (Chinese?) Whitworth 12pt sockets have become available in UK branded as Sealey/ Laser etc. these are actually pretty decent for the price with Flank drive type broaching and available in standard and deep versions, however they appear to be using a metric socket blanks and adjusting the broaching to Whitworth which leads to varying wall thicknesses - the 5/16 WW socket has paper thin walls and I wouldn’t want to put any kind of torque on it.

I also do a lot of work on Land Rover Defenders and right up to 2016 when they stopped production, the differential assembly used Metric bolts for the journal caps, UNF bolts for the crownwheel to diff centre, and BSF threaded holes and bolts in the diff casing for the trackrod protector bracket / diff guard mounting points.

 

[dutchgray]

I bought Koken when I wanted a set of Whitworth sockets, I have only used them on machine tools, they have been just fine for that. I have vintage spanners in Whitworth, it seems much easier to find good sets of those very cheaply at boot sales and such in the UK, but finding a complete used Whitworth set of sockets for cheap seems very difficult.

 

[Dave455]

So how come a set of regular 6 point metric sockets costs 100 bucks and the z series costs 163 bucks from koken? Same drive same socket sizes?

I imagine KoKen would say that the Z Series are made to tighter tolerances. Maybe a different steel to cope with the slightly reduced wall thickness? Probably all cold forged to get the accuracy. All of which has a cost.

 

[Vinny]

Cool topic. Never heard of Whitworth sockets but I never really worked on much British stuff. Interesting to read about. Regarding the fasteners, the normal standard or metric size sockets aren't close enough to fit, even if the numbers don't match since W isn't based on head size?

 

[Dave455]

Cool topic. Never heard of Whitworth sockets but I never really worked on much British stuff. Interesting to read about. Regarding the fasteners, the normal standard or metric size sockets aren't close enough to fit, even if the numbers don't match since W isn't based on head size?

Whitworth were the very first standardised screw threads (1841). They are relatively coarse threads, as they were designed for use in iron.

The size of the bolt heads are standardised for each thread size. So, whereas with a Unified thread, you have to know that you need a wrench of 7/16“ across flats to fit a bolt of 1/4”, with a Whitworth thread a 1/4” bolt uses a wrench marked 1/4”!

In later years, Whitworth threads were called “BSW” for British Standard Whitworth. “BSF” threads are British Standard Fine, and were optimised for use with steel.

A metric socket can be up to one mm oversize. An SAE socket up to 1/16” oversize. So, while sometimes you get lucky and they are close, it’s not onerous to use the correct size.

On a typical vehicle you might need up to 7 or 8 SAE wrenches. Potentially 10 to cover the same size range metric, but you only need 5 in Whitworth!

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

Whitworth were the very first standardised screw threads (1841). They are relatively coarse threads, as they were designed for use in iron.

The size of the bolt heads are standardised for each thread size. So, whereas with a Unified thread, you have to know that you need a wrench of 7/16“ across flats to fit a bolt of 1/4”, with a Whitworth thread a 1/4” bolt uses a wrench marked 1/4”!

In later years, Whitworth threads were called “BSW” for British Standard Whitworth. “BSF” threads are British Standard Fine, and were optimised for use with steel.

A metric socket can be up to one mm oversize. An SAE socket up to 1/16” oversize. So, while sometimes you get lucky and they are close, it’s not onerous to use the correct size.

On a typical vehicle you might need up to 7 or 8 SAE wrenches. Potentially 10 to cover the same size range metric, but you only need 5 in Whitworth!

Did BSF fasteners have the same across the flats (AF) sizes as Whitworth? Meaning you can use whitworth spanners on a BSF fastener? If not, what is the name of the tooling used on BSF fasteners? I only know of SAE, metric, and whitworth. I think in the early 1900s in the USA there were some different standards like USS or something like that, but they had the same AF dimension as other wrenches. So basically called something different but AF dimension could be found in other tooling. But not sure about this?

Thanks for all the help and information!

 

[Wrench-Polisher]

I imagine KoKen would say that the Z Series are made to tighter tolerances. Maybe a different steel to cope with the slightly reduced wall thickness? Probably all cold forged to get the accuracy. All of which has a cost.

Oh thats right! Cold forging! Even usa made wright sockets are hot forged. I think that was one of my deciding factors when shopping for a set of sockets.

 

[Dave455]

Did BSF fasteners have the same across the flats (AF) sizes as Whitworth? Meaning you can use whitworth spanners on a BSF fastener? If not, what is the name of the tooling used on BSF fasteners? I only know of SAE, metric, and whitworth. I think in the early 1900s in the USA there were some different standards like USS or something like that, but they had the same AF dimension as other wrenches. So basically called something different but AF dimension could be found in other tooling. But not sure about this?

Thanks for all the help and information!

Yes and No!

BSF use the same range of sizes (so you don’t need another set of sockets) but they used one hex size smaller, for a given bolt size.

So a socket would typically have been marked 1/4 Whit / 5/16 BSF.

During the war the smaller hex’s were standardised for both, so some modern wrenches are just marked with the BS size.

BSP (British Standard Pipe) use the same sizes too (in this case the Whitworth size) and these are still a current standard.

 

[YoshiMoshi3]

Thanks for the info. I guess the only somewhat other useful standard is BA sizes. With 0BA and 1BA the only likely ones I'd ever need.

 

[lotus_esprit]

Another thing to mention to really muddle things up is recently a couple of hex headed Whitworth / BSF bolts I have purchased have actually had metric hex heads, presumably as Whitworth sized hex stock is harder to come by.

 

[Dave455]

Thanks for the info. I guess the only somewhat other useful standard is BA sizes. With 0BA and 1BA the only likely ones I'd ever need.

Yes, BA sizes are found a lot in the U.K. and on British manufactured goods. Although in theory replaced by smaller ISO metric sizes, they are still used.

For those unfamiliar with BA (British Association) they are used for smaller threads, so can be thought of as the equivalent to the Unified “numbered” series. The difference is that for BA sizes the bigger numbers are smaller threads. The opposite to Unified.

When a lot of British industry adopted Unified threads, BA were retained for smaller sizes, so BA threads will be found much later than BSW / BSF.

BA threads are actually metric, a 0 BA being 6mm, and each subsequent diameter being 90% of the previous. This is a very logical way to proceed, as the steps between sizes get smaller as the diameter reduces. More logical than ISO metric.

The odd numbered sizes are not preferred, so you will very rarely find 1BA. 5BA turns up on fuel pumps, 7BA on some carbs, and you will find them in aviation, but even then they are rare. Model engineers tend to use all the sizes.

0BA is close to 1/4” so the only time you tend to find it is when everything else on an item uses BA sizes. Much the same as the larger Unified sizes, or the older numbered NC / NF sizes.

2/4/6/8 BA are very common. I tend to carry 2 and 4 BA wrenches, together with the smaller Whitworth, and they do most of what I need.

 

[Dave455]

Another thing to mention to really muddle things up is recently a couple of hex headed Whitworth / BSF bolts I have purchased have actually had metric hex heads, presumably as Whitworth sized hex stock is harder to come by.

I have encountered that only rarely.

Most bolt heads are forged, rather than being turned from stock, so they would have to be pretty crappy bolts!

There was a Swedish standard that used Whitworth thread with metric bolt heads. You find it on a lot of Swedish machine tools.

What size bolts?

One thing to be aware of is the change that took place during the war. When it was decided to use the smaller “BSF” head size for Whitworth bolts there was a problem in the smaller sizes because no 1/8 BSF existed. They got around this by using 4 BA heads for 1/8 bolts.

Similarly, the 3/16 BSF (1/8 BSW) was used only rarely, so they specified a 2 BA.

So, if you encounter any 1/8 or 3/16 post war bolt they will need 4BA and 2BA wrenches.

This is something I seldom see written down, but it’s the way it is! So when you see a “set” of wrenches including 3/16 BS, understand that this size will only be found pre war!

 

[KnurledNut]

Lots of good info @Dave455
Thanks to all the above contributors sharing from experience. Makes for a valuable resource.

 

[dscheidt]

BA threads are actually metric, a 0 BA being 6mm, and each subsequent diameter being 90% of the previous. This is a very logical way to proceed, as the steps between sizes get smaller as the diameter reduces. More logical than ISO metric.

They're more English than that: The threads were designed in metric, but with converted sizes that were rounded, so they're not quite what they would be straight metric. (It would not surprise me to learn that modern production isn't to the spec, but to the metric size it should have been.

 

[alfazer]

I'm guessing any Whitworth sockets I've ever seen were always 12 point because they will drive both a hex or a square head bolt. Square head were common on screws with a Whitworth thread. Old british machines often had both square and hex Whitworth screws on the same machine.

 

[lolaetype]

Trying to remember where else I’ve heard of whitworth sizing on fasteners.

Frequently used in various places on British car fuel systems, . . think SU carbs.

 

[Dave455]

I'm guessing any Whitworth sockets I've ever seen were always 12 point because they will drive both a hex or a square head bolt. Square head were common on screws with a Whitworth thread. Old british machines often had both square and hex Whitworth screws on the same machine.

I think they were generally 12 point because most Whitworth bolts are of reasonable quality and you can use 6 point or 12 point without drama. Older wrenches were often 6 point.

Square head bolts, although often using Whitworth threads, have heads of standard sizes, measured “across flats”.

My Myford lathe, for example, has all Whitworth threads, but hex nuts will be standard Whitworth sizes, cap screws will be standard hex key sizes, and square heads will be standard “A/F” sizes - e.g. top slide adjustment 3/8” A/F.

Older lathes, Drummonds come to mind, use exclusively square heads, but again in standard sizes such as 1/4” A/F.

The tool to use on these is generally an open ended wrench. A 12 point socket, more correctly “bi hexagonal” is not the tool to use (even if it sort of fits) as the corner angles are wrong. The correct tool is a square or bi square socket, and I use these extensively for this purpose.

You find these square heads in other industries too, such as agriculture.

 

[lotus_esprit]

I have encountered that only rarely.

Most bolt heads are forged, rather than being turned from stock, so they would have to be pretty crappy bolts!

There was a Swedish standard that used Whitworth thread with metric bolt heads. You find it on a lot of Swedish machine tools.

What size bolts?

One thing to be aware of is the change that took place during the war. When it was decided to use the smaller “BSF” head size for Whitworth bolts there was a problem in the smaller sizes because no 1/8 BSF existed. They got around this by using 4 BA heads for 1/8 bolts.

Similarly, the 3/16 BSF (1/8 BSW) was used only rarely, so they specified a 2 BA.

So, if you encounter any 1/8 or 3/16 post war bolt they will need 4BA and 2BA wrenches.

This is something I seldom see written down, but it’s the way it is! So when you see a “set” of wrenches including 3/16 BS, understand that this size will only be found pre war!

From memory the metric head Whitworth thread bolts were probably Britpart supplied for Land Rover series.

I buy all the BSF bolts I need now for Blackstone Engines from Balls Fasteners, in cap head instead of hex head.

 

[Dave455]

From memory the metric head Whitworth thread bolts were probably Britpart supplied for Land Rover series.

I buy all the BSF bolts I need now for Blackstone Engines from Balls Fasteners, in cap head instead of hex head.

That’s interesting.

Thankfully I need to buy relatively few, as I have reasonable stocks, but sometimes you just have to.

 

[Ditchdigger]

If you want to get really infuriated, Postwar MG XPAG motors used what is known as "Med Metric" where they are metric threads with Whitworth sized heads.
I have also rebuilt a 30's Daimler inline 6 that had standard UNF and USC 60 degree threads with Whitworth sized heads.

 

[Dave455]

If you want to get really infuriated, Postwar MG XPAG motors used what is known as "Med Metric" where they are metric threads with Whitworth sized heads.
I have also rebuilt a 30's Daimler inline 6 that had standard UNF and USC 60 degree threads with Whitworth sized heads.

I’m pretty certain the XPAG was a pre war design. I think it came about because Lord Nuffield banned MG from having dedicated parts made, and insisted they use standard Morris items.

I also vaguely recall that the XPAG was based on a much older Morris / Hotchkiss design - hence the metric threads. But nobody would have owned metric tools back then, hence the Whitworth heads..!

Pre war stuff isn’t really my area of expertise.

Can’t speak for the Daimler, that does sound odd. I would suggest that the Unified threads must, but definition, be post 1948. So they must either have been NF threads, or a later mod!