6pt versus 12pt sockets

[kc-steve]

I'm just curious. As an electronics tech for 30+ years and now a home hobbiest mechanic, I have noticed there seems to be a preference for 6pt sockets over 12pt, and I'm wondering if any kind person would inform me as to why this is the case.

Keep in mind that I have never broken a socket whether a 6pt or 12 pt Craftsman tool.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[porcupine73]

It's not so much for the sake of the socket, but for the fastener. New 6pt fasteners not overtorqued or rusted in place usually won't make any difference if you use a 6pt or 12pt socket or wrench on them.

However, rusty, tight fasteners, especially the smaller ones, may round off if a 12pt socket is used on them.

Personally I use 6pt whenever possible. It also reduces risk of damage to the fastener if you're planning to reuse it.

Snap-on makes sockets in flank drive as well, which contacts the fastener more on its sides rather than the edges to help prevent rounding off and fastener damage.

 

[Stuey]

6pt = less chance of rounding off/damaging softer fasteners than with a 12pt socket.

12pt = easier to fit socket over fastener with less adjustment when not using a ratchet or ratcheting tool. When using a ratchet, the 12pt loses its advantages.

 

[kc-steve]

Thanks guys!

 

[lipadj46]

There are about 10 threads that I know of in the past 6 months with nearly this same title, search.

 

[mrholeshot]

You need both

 

[scottzilla]

You need both

Why?
If 6pt is better, why do 12pt sockets even exist?
Seriously, I've always wondered about this.

 

[porcupine73]

Why?
If 6pt is better, why do 12pt sockets even exist?
Seriously, I've always wondered about this.

For one, because there are 12pt fasteners. Often these are on engine cylinder head bolts, axle nuts, and other applications.

 

[scottzilla]

For one, because there are 12pt fasteners. Often these are on engine cylinder head bolts, axle nuts, and other applications.

I never really noticed this. So this creates a need for 12pt sockets, but it's safe to say only a 6pt socket should be used on a 6pt nut/bolt, correct?
I've spun 12pt sockets before, and always grab for a 6, especially when using a breaker bar.

 

[Stuey]

You can use a 12pt socket on a 6pt fastener. It's just good practice to use 6pt socket.

 

[Chris_R/T]

Only time I've actually come across 12 pt. bolts is the driveshaft bolts on 80s-90s Ford trucks and SUVs, most are 12mm. And also an oil pan of some 4 cyl I vaguely remember from years ago. I still keep a good amount of 12 pt. stuff tho

 

[kc-steve]

There are about 10 threads that I know of in the past 6 months with nearly this same title, search.

Is this your pat answer to newbies? I did a search for "6pt" and came up with nothing. Try it yourself.

Steve

 

[mrholeshot]

Why?
If 6pt is better, why do 12pt sockets even exist?
Seriously, I've always wondered about this.

Duh.......Cause there are 12 point bolts, lol

 

[shotgunfatcat]

Is this your pat answer to newbies? I did a search for "6pt" and came up with nothing. Try it yourself.

Steve

There are a lot of threads on this....

My whole problem with it though is Snap-on of all companies, which has just about every wrench you can imagine makes more 12 pt wrenches than 6 pt. a lot more. And with my experience, there isn't that many 12 pt bolts.

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?tool=hand&Group_ID=525&store=snapon-store

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?tool=hand&Group_ID=526&store=snapon-store They used to make these 6 pt.

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?tool=hand&Group_ID=530&store=snapon-store

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?tool=hand&Group_ID=538&store=snapon-store

I could go on.

 

[mrholeshot]

There are a lot of threads on this....

My whole problem with it though is Snap-on of all companies, which has just about every wrench you can imagine makes more 12 pt wrenches than 6 pt. a lot more. And with my experience, there isn't that many 12 pt bolts.

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?tool=hand&Group_ID=525&store=snapon-store

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?tool=hand&Group_ID=526&store=snapon-store They used to make these 6 pt.

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?tool=hand&Group_ID=530&store=snapon-store

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/tools.asp?tool=hand&Group_ID=538&store=snapon-store

I could go on.

Especially with wrenches 12 points are far more useful because they don't ratchet it gives you more swing. I personally hate 6 point wrenches and rarely use one. About the 12 point sockets. Every engine build I do uses nothing but 12 point ARP fasteners.

 

[Skin]

Duh.......Cause there are 12 point bolts, lol

its really not such a stupid question though. 12pt have gone the way of the dodo, its very possible for a young person working who only has experience working on modern cars [tires/brakes/suspension etc.. at least] to not know they exist. The only 12pt left on vehicles, if any, is usually a bit obscure.

 

[Boiler]

Combination wrenches are often preferred in 12 point because it allows you to position the wrench in more ways. 12 point is less needed on sockets because you can just spin your ratchet a click and line up the 6 point, still allowing your handle to be clear of obstruction.

If you have a 12 point wrench, you only need to be able to turn a bolt 30 degrees before you hit your obstruction, but if you had 6 point you'd have to turn it in 60 degree increments, minimum.

Typical ratchets are 0 to 10 degree increments, so 6 point is not a problem for obstructions.

12 point sockets also are good for square drive fasteners, and 6 point aren't. You can also beat a 12 point socket onto a rounded fastener or use them to hold square end taps. They are also slightly faster if you are doing really clean work with low torque, as you don't have to adjust them as much to start on the bolt. Electric service work is probably in this realm much more often than "mechanic in the rust belt" work.

 

[kc-steve]

There are a lot of threads on this....

My whole problem with it though is Snap-on of all companies, which has just about every wrench you can imagine makes more 12 pt wrenches than 6 pt. a lot more. And with my experience, there isn't that many 12 pt bolts.
. . .

Thanks, but I suspect the forum search design is set up so that searches require more than three characters, therefore, when searching for "6pt" you don't find anything. But whathisname in post #5 above is just being a jerk.

I too have noticed Craftsman also stocks more 12pt sockets than 6pt sockets, and tend to be cheaper as well. But I think "Stuey" and "porcupine73" gave me the answer I was looking for.

Steve

 

[Z06 427]

its really not such a stupid question though. 12pt have gone the way of the dodo, its very possible for a young person working who only has experience working on modern cars [tires/brakes/suspension etc.. at least] to not know they exist. The only 12pt left on vehicles, if any, is usually a bit obscure.

Like MRHOLESHOT said above if your doing any high performance work/mods you will be using ARP 12 pts.

 

[kc-steve]

Combination wrenches are often preferred in 12 point because it allows you to position the wrench in more ways. 12 point is less needed on sockets because you can just spin your ratchet a click and line up the 6 point, still allowing your handle to be clear of obstruction.

If you have a 12 point wrench, you only need to be able to turn a bolt 30 degrees before you hit your obstruction, but if you had 6 point you'd have to turn it in 60 degree increments, minimum.

Typical ratchets are 0 to 10 degree increments, so 6 point is not a problem for obstructions.

12 point sockets also are good for square drive fasteners, and 6 point aren't. You can also beat a 12 point socket onto a rounded fastener or use them to hold square end taps. They are also slightly faster if you are doing really clean work with low torque, as you don't have to adjust them as much to start on the bolt. Electric service work is probably in this realm much more often than "mechanic in the rust belt" work.

Now those are some things I had not ever thought about yet is so TRUE.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Charles (in GA)]

its really not such a stupid question though. 12pt have gone the way of the dodo, its very possible for a young person working who only has experience working on modern cars [tires/brakes/suspension etc.. at least] to not know they exist. The only 12pt left on vehicles, if any, is usually a bit obscure.

I don't think that 12 pt has gone anywhere, not especially the way of the dodo.

In case no one has noticed, there are mechanical things in this world other than cars, light trucks and SUV's. Those other mechanical objects are built differently many times. About 25% of the fasteners in a Boeing aircraft are 12 pt, for example.

As discussed in the previous threads on this subject (which are frequent, the last one being a couple of weeks ago I think) 12 pt on a breaker bar (in a tight location where a ratchet won't fit, or requiring a torque you would not want to put on a ratchet) is the only way to go, to get full swing of the handle and allow it to position so that you have the best mechanical advantage.

As far as rounding off fasteners, yes, that will happen on occasion. The ones you round off with a 12 pt are the same ones you shear off with the 6 pt, either way, its a fight.

For 98% of normal vehicle maintenance, a 12 pt tool will do the job as well, if not better than a 6 pt, and easier too.

12 pt also makes a better bearing or race driver for the hydraulic press.

Charles

 

[Wakefield]

Does a 12 point box/socket give better grip on a 12 point fastener head than a 6 point does on a 6 point head?

 

[shotgunfatcat]

Does a 12 point box/socket give better grip on a 12 point fastener head than a 6 point does on a 6 point head?

That is a good question, and I would think so, more contact area. But then there is less material there, making it easier to destroy. Although ARP bolts are the best in the business, and are more commonly seen for 12 pt bolts.

 

[porcupine73]

Does a 12 point box/socket give better grip on a 12 point fastener head than a 6 point does on a 6 point head?

I would guess yes. I think it's the same idea as spline drive or drive axles, where generally the larger the spline count, the more torque the axle can handle? I'm thinking mrholeshot will know.

 

[scottzilla]

I'm not a mechanic but have never come across a 12pt nut/bolt. When you buy a packaged ratchet/socket set (Like Craftsman, for example) they generally include both 6pt & 12pt sockets.
I still find this odd. Seems to me there is no reason for 12pt sockets to be a common tool. IMO, TORX tools should be the new standard.

 

[kursplat]

Seems to me there is no reason for 12pt sockets to be a common tool. IMO, TORX tools should be the new standard.

people find a way to strip those out too

 

[Charles (in GA)]

IMO, TORX tools should be the new standard.

TORX involves licensing of patented products. This costs money, that is why common nuts and bolts are not TORX, it costs more.

Charles

 

[jpoe]

I am a mechanical neophyte, I had to google 12 point bolt just so I could know what the hell the big debate was about. Now I know, and I have never come across one.

 

[lipadj46]

I think it would be fun to create a forum for people like you, from ALL existing forums, so you folks can congregate and tell each other to use the search function.
Wouldn't it be awesome to gather the search police from knitting, football, deep sea fishing, welding, hiking, rope *******, polynesian transexual, wine, cheese, boating, ceramics, ship-in-a-bottle, hunting, gardening, aquarium, travel and virtually every internet discussion forum, throw them in their OWN forum and let them go to town?

...teach a man to fish...

I was saying there are tons of this exact post probably with the same exact info over and over and over again. Use google to search this site not the search function. Isn't that one of the points of these forums to archive information?

 

[kursplat]

Isn't that one of the points of these forums to archive information?

nice it theory, hardly ever works right in practice

 

[lipadj46]

Is this your pat answer to newbies? I did a search for "6pt" and came up with nothing. Try it yourself.

Steve

Use google to search the site and you will see the threads. And yes I think that pointing out someone's overt laziness is OK. If they admit they are being lazy then that is OK though. For example if someone comes right out and says I was too lazy to search then that is OK.

 

[lipadj46]

Try it yourself.

Steve

OK This was from 1 search, there are many many more threads (pages of search results of all threads with the nearly the same title) I just got bored:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10519
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6337
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8125&page=2
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62645
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40154
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74119
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11878
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9622
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55263&page=2
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43024&page=2
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=842
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20608&page=2
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70328

 

[shotgunfatcat]

Use google to search the site and you will see the threads. And yes I think that pointing out someone's overt laziness is OK. If they admit they are being lazy then that is OK though. For example if someone comes right out and says I was too lazy to search then that is OK.

I think your reasoning is a little skewed, but whatever. He said he tried if I remember correctly. Besides look what happens in a search.....


People aren't going to do extensive searches besides why not bring it up every now and then, new opinions are always appreciated.

 

[lipadj46]

I think your reasoning is a little skewed, but whatever. He said he tried if I remember correctly. Besides look what happens in a search.....


People aren't going to do extensive searches besides why not bring it up every now and then, new opinions are always appreciated.

See my results above, maybe I am just being cranky because my daughter **** and threw up on me in about a 10 minute time span.

 

[kc-steve]

Use google to search the site and you will see the threads. And yes I think that pointing out someone's overt laziness is OK. If they admit they are being lazy then that is OK though. For example if someone comes right out and says I was too lazy to search then that is OK.

I'm not being lazy . . . I tried the forum's search engine and got nothing using the search term "6pt." The forum's search algorithms evidently require more than 3 CHARACTERS!

Like I said, I'm not lazy, you are being an a$$.

Steve

 

[shotgunfatcat]

See my results above, maybe I am just being cranky because my daughter **** and threw up on me in about a 10 minute time span.

Maybe, Old subject get brought up a lot, and there always seems to be new points to everything, and they go for pages and pages. Might as well just let it happen, or bring up the threads like you did earlier with a here you go after it. This will show new people that answers are out there, and they will look more in the future.

 

[Kenwc]

I also have 8 point sockets cuz lets not forget the ole timey machines that used square headed bolts. I use them alot on the old machines I restore. Wish I actually had some square (would that be 4 point?) sockets.

 

[porcupine73]

Ah yes, I had to pick up an 8 pt socket for a pipe plug on an ATV that was buried so deep in there it was the only way to access it. Four pt would be what I wanted for that job but needed to get something that day and the 8 pt is what Sears had. I have seen the four pt sockets on McMaster I think.

maybe I am just being cranky because my daughter **** and threw up on me in about a 10 minute time span.

haha I think that would make just about anyone cranky!

Here's one of the cylinder heads on a Subaru 2.2L showing the 12 pt head bolts:

 

[Skin]

I don't think that 12 pt has gone anywhere, not especially the way of the dodo.

In case no one has noticed, there are mechanical things in this world other than cars, light trucks and SUV's. Those other mechanical objects are built differently many times. About 25% of the fasteners in a Boeing aircraft are 12 pt, for example.

As discussed in the previous threads on this subject (which are frequent, the last one being a couple of weeks ago I think) 12 pt on a breaker bar (in a tight location where a ratchet won't fit, or requiring a torque you would not want to put on a ratchet) is the only way to go, to get full swing of the handle and allow it to position so that you have the best mechanical advantage.

As far as rounding off fasteners, yes, that will happen on occasion. The ones you round off with a 12 pt are the same ones you shear off with the 6 pt, either way, its a fight.

For 98% of normal vehicle maintenance, a 12 pt tool will do the job as well, if not better than a 6 pt, and easier too.

12 pt also makes a better bearing or race driver for the hydraulic press.

Charles

really though, whats the ratio of aircraft mechanics to automotive? Quite small. I was talking strictly in regards to autos. The only place where i still see a good amount of 12pt is on commercial trucks. For the home do-it-yourselfer mucking around with the family sedan or a project car 6pt would be your go-to. And with respect, you would never want to use a 12pt on a 6pt bolt in the rust belt unless you want to create a bunch of extra work. Its amazing how people from the warmer climates just have no idea how bad fasteners get after a few years on heavily salted roads. The older 12pt in particular was notorious for giving you a nice circular bolt head. Likewise, notice most impacts are 6pt? They dont do that for no reason.

 

[cruiser808]

I also have 8 point sockets cuz lets not forget the ole timey machines that used square headed bolts. I use them alot on the old machines I restore. Wish I actually had some square (would that be 4 point?) sockets.

yup, I have square grease plugs on the birfields of my Land Cruiser. Need an 8 point for those.