Above 1200 Sq/FT 86's 20HP shop

[86turbodsl]

I put the woodruff key on the shaft, and notice there's a lot of tolerance now. The edge of the slot is broken off on the crank. There's also some damage to the surfaces. I filed high spots down, and scotchbrited both flywheel bore and crank nose. I put the key in, flywheel on, and sent the bolt to 50 ft-lbs. No locktite or anything on the bolt, insert only. I'm not real confident of the repair though. I'm also thinking of heating the flywheel hub with a torch to expand it, and retorque while hot. The theory being the hub expands slightly at temp, while crank nose would be more nominal and that might allow a tighter fit on the taper. I don't know. I'm in uncharted territory here.

I also did locate a spare engine for fairly cheap about 5 hrs away. Thinking of going to get it to have a spare on hand in case. It's a non-runner, but looks to have the right crank. The genset cranks are NOT the same and the industrial engines are a bit more rare. My alternative is a repower. That would bring a bunch more engineering challenges and be a project, which i'm trying to avoid.

 

[kent_323is]

In my experiences, having the tapered surfaces nice and clean are the critical part, which it sounds like you got that good. I have never done any heat on assembly, that is unnecessary. 50ft-lbs should be a good start. Is there any sort of mechanical lock for the bolt, like a locking spider washer, or safety wire? Might be something to consider.
At this point, I'd run it!
If the spare engine is fairly cheap, it might be worth it to buy, and stick on the shelf for parts.

 

[bimmer1980]

Sounds to be a step in the right direction!!! Prep of the shaft and flywheel are good.

I would agree with some method to lock it on. If not, at least use some torque seal or a dab of paint as a visual verification of the bolt staying tight.

Let's hope this turns back into a runner. Keep on rolling forward. Good progress on getting after this and pushing past the hurdles.

 

[racer-john]

I put the woodruff key on the shaft, and notice there's a lot of tolerance now. The edge of the slot is broken off on the crank. There's also some damage to the surfaces. I filed high spots down, and scotchbrited both flywheel bore and crank nose. I put the key in, flywheel on, and sent the bolt to 50 ft-lbs. No locktite or anything on the bolt, insert only. I'm not real confident of the repair though. I'm also thinking of heating the flywheel hub with a torch to expand it, and retorque while hot. The theory being the hub expands slightly at temp, while crank nose would be more nominal and that might allow a tighter fit on the taper. I don't know. I'm in uncharted territory here.

I also did locate a spare engine for fairly cheap about 5 hrs away. Thinking of going to get it to have a spare on hand in case. It's a non-runner, but looks to have the right crank. The genset cranks are NOT the same and the industrial engines are a bit more rare. My alternative is a repower. That would bring a bunch more engineering challenges and be a project, which i'm trying to avoid.

What is the size of that bolt you tourqued to 50 ft. lbs?

 

[86turbodsl]

There was no factory locking method. I did locktite the insert this time. I can paint mark it but it wouldn't be visible without engine removal.

 

[86turbodsl]

What is the size of that bolt you tourqued to 50 ft. lbs?

It's a 7/16-14. Factory torque is 35-40ftlb. 44ftlb gives ~ 6700 lbs tensile load @ 75% proof strength. I'm guessing the original fastener was a grade 5 equivalent. What i don't know is if the two surfaces are close enough to nominal to give a nice big area for contact. I'm thinking the file down will help.

 

[SilverJimmy]

You might want to run a dial indicator and check for runout and or wobble just to make sure everything is good and true. Easy to do now!

 

[racer-john]

You might want to run a dial indicator and check for runout and or wobble just to make sure everything is good and true. Easy to do now!

Maybe replace that gr5 bolt with a gr8.

 

[86turbodsl]

There's no place to put the dial indicator. All surfaces are cast. Nothing machined but the gear teeth.

The joint maximum in steel is ~ 30Klbs. The existing joint supposedly needs 6700lbs. Per factory torque anyway. I could put a better bolt in it, but then we're in uncharted territory. How much does the helicoil take? I need to hit about 75% of UTS to get the bolt stretch right for retention. As my old fastener prof said: You want a stiff joint, and springy bolt. Staying under yield on a non-TTY design is kinda important.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

86,

I like your heat idea, but don't overdo it if so. Also, I'd run the bolt up just snug, let it cool, then torque it, rather than torquing while hot.

 

[Monza Harry]

I am wondering if some shaft retainer Loctite would help with the flywheel retention? I've thought about it plenty but never pulled the trigger, always seemed to work out ["missed him by that much" (Maxwell Smart] just before the "Better Living Through Chemicals" fix was implemented. Just an untested idea for your consideration. Harry

Google Search

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[rmack898]

Whenever I have a taper fit that's questionable, I would use some prussian blue to check the taper contact. If you have less than 70% contact area, you need to address the fit. Filing, lapping, sanding, whatever it takes to get you a better fit.

 

[86turbodsl]

I am wondering if some shaft retainer Loctite would help with the flywheel retention? I've thought about it plenty but never pulled the trigger, always seemed to work out ["missed him by that much" (Maxwell Smart] just before the "Better Living Through Chemicals" fix was implemented. Just an untested idea for your consideration. Harry

Google Search

www.google.com

which one? 609 or something else? I'm also ordering some prussian blue. I should have that on hand with going into machining.

 

[86turbodsl]

86,

I like your heat idea, but don't overdo it if so. Also, I'd run the bolt up just snug, let it cool, then torque it, rather than torquing while hot.

It couldn't be more of an interference fit than i had getting it off the first time. Remember i completely destroyed the bolt threads trying to get it off there. Only a big whack from a sledge got it off under tension.

 

[Monza Harry]

which one? 609 or something else? I'm also ordering some prussian blue. I should have that on hand with going into machining.

I didn't read the detailed data sheet, as I don't know what size the shaft is I am sure most of their products detail "holding" based on diameter, [ie; 1/4" is permanent, but only strong but removable on 1/2" etc. (I'm thinking Red here)]. I am also not sure about your "Commitment" to this fix. And I never pulled the trigger on that particular fix so first hand experience is "Lacking"*. Sorry for being so specific.
So for my next suggestion, grab a length of O-1 or 4140 drill rod and turn the Heli-coil major dia. and thread with a stud extending out for a nut. Heat, Quench, Draw, and install (?) My best guess is: 0.8089" - 14 TPI [whatever is at hand will be awesome, those are both Oil Quenching steels and both go ~60ish plus Rc hence the draw remark, 40-45 will be plenty tough, approaching Gr.8 hardness] I would Loctite the ever loving $#!+ out of it when installing the stepped stud]. Harry
* I had a flywheel that kept shearing the key on an 8HP briggs on a go-cart and the brakes/clutch were "too good" together and caused the key to keep shearing I ended up putting a 5Horse flywheel and a coil relocating bracket, to reduce the rotating mass, as I was afraid of breaking the end of the crank off. The reason for never actually trying this repair.

 

[86turbodsl]

Yeah if i was going to go to that length i would probably turn a screw for the helicoil outer thread and install that permanently with a bored out retainer. And right now i don't want to get that serious about it. I'll probably do 609 locktite and the heat shrink deal, and if it does it again, i'll have a spare engine by then. Right now i just need that forklift moving so i can get the shop cleaned out. I'm losing summer and i need to get the boiler done before fall. I am not going to run the old boiler another winter. Too much maintenance.

 

[bimmer1980]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you currently have the flywheel in place and bolted on, torqued to 50 ft-lbs?

If so, while many of the above ideas and suggestions have some merit, I would suggest going ahead and putting the engine back into the forklift and run it.

On the off chance that it does loosen up again, then proceed to using some of the suggestions to lock it on better. My take is that you are already in a much better spot than the original repair. Primarily due to the higher torque.

If this was aviation, there would be a built in locking mechanism via either safety wire or some other method. In this case, if it fails, remove the engine and proceed with the fix.

I agree that you need to keep moving on the shop cleanup and the next project.... vehicle and boiler....

Is the outdoor forklift runable at this point? I know you were close with the hydraulic hoses.....

 

[Strouty]

I agree with Bimmer, just get it back together, the last repair held up for a while and you didn't use any loctite, I suspect this repair will last a lot longer.

 

[86turbodsl]

Lets hope so. I don't really enjoy pulling that engine out. My change this time was adding locktite to the insert. And torque to 50ftlbs.

There is damage to the crank nose now due to the key shear and spin. At some point it will affect fitment and alignment. My timing is not easily adjustable and requires keyway alignment. The magnet is cemented into the flywheel at a fixed point. There is some adjustment on the module, but it requires engine removal and running out of unit.

 

[bulletpruf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you currently have the flywheel in place and bolted on, torqued to 50 ft-lbs?

If so, while many of the above ideas and suggestions have some merit, I would suggest going ahead and putting the engine back into the forklift and run it.

On the off chance that it does loosen up again, then proceed to using some of the suggestions to lock it on better. My take is that you are already in a much better spot than the original repair. Primarily due to the higher torque.

If this was aviation, there would be a built in locking mechanism via either safety wire or some other method. In this case, if it fails, remove the engine and proceed with the fix.

I agree that you need to keep moving on the shop cleanup and the next project.... vehicle and boiler....

Is the outdoor forklift runable at this point? I know you were close with the hydraulic hoses.....

I like this course of action as well.

 

[bulletpruf]

86 - anything to update?

 

[86turbodsl]

Ok here's where we are right now. Spent Friday night getting the engine back in the namco.


Then yesterday took the day to drive deep into Indiana, down some of the most crazy winding roads I've ever seen to buy this onan stub crank engine from a ahem 'colorful' individual as a back up. I also picked up this engine, a backup to the backup in running condition for cheap.


Today I'm working on finishing up the namco.

 

[bulletpruf]

Backup engines are nice! Where will they reside? Floor space is scarce in your shop.

 

[86turbodsl]

They're going on a pallet and getting thrown in the machinery shed with the rest of the useless detritus...

The 2nd one is a Kubota Z482!

 

[bimmer1980]

Just out of curiosity... How much did you have to give for each of the spare engines?

Hopefully it is good insurance to make the OEM motor on the Namco fire up for you!!

 

[86turbodsl]

Onan 125
Kubota 200

 

[86turbodsl]

Ok, so the namco is running again.

I was having trouble with it stopping in one spot and spinning the front wheel. Like it wouldn't move past this spot. Wife told me to go investigate. I figured i ran over a nail or something. Picked up the *** end, the steer wheel moved freely, no nail. Picked up the front end, the drive wheel moved freely. set it back down, drives no problem. I got nothin'. Picked up the brownie, set on a pallet, moved to the doorway.

Let the emptying begin.

 

[kent_323is]

Onan 125
Kubota 200

That was worth the money, hopefully it was also worth the time. While you have them on the ground, particularly the gas one, pour in some oil in the cylinders and spin it over. Then seal it up and get it on a pallet and out of the way. A label on it that it is a spare for the Namco probably isn't a bad idea either.

Great job getting the Namco running again! Are you willing to share more shop pictures yet?

 

[86turbodsl]

That was worth the money, hopefully it was also worth the time. While you have them on the ground, particularly the gas one, pour in some oil in the cylinders and spin it over. Then seal it up and get it on a pallet and out of the way. A label on it that it is a spare for the Namco probably isn't a bad idea either.

Great job getting the Namco running again! Are you willing to share more shop pictures yet?

I haven't gotten enough done yet to be picture worthy. I'm hoping after moving a few things out tonight i can get more snaps. For right now, i'm going to concentrate on moving rain-robust stuff outside. The original plan was everything while i was off work, but now with only an hour or two in the evenings, i won't be able to move fast enough. Really need to get it done, fall is fast approaching and i have to move everything out, disconnect and move the old boiler out, lift the *NOT BUILT YET* new boiler up over the bathroom then move all the oil tank storage closer to the bathroom and put up another section of pallet rack on the end of the north run. It's looking like another week vacation might be warranted after i get the shop cleaned out.

 

[bimmer1980]

"rain robust stuff outside"... I like this plan, but also add the criteria "no immediate plan to use".

I shouldn't suggest this crazy idea, but I will...... Are you familiar with the IBC bulk liquid containers? Usually about a pallet sized square plastic container with a metal tube structure. I bought one for transporting some bulk driveway sealer. I paid $40. They are often on craigslist, etc for $40 to $60 around here. Anyhow, the idea is this.. cut the plastic tank around the perimeter near the bottom. Lift the upper potion off. Fill the metal structure (with plastic bottom) with your stuff. Then slide the plastic top back over it. Viola!! a rain protected cube of stuff...... (or some variation of this might be helpful for short term or long term outdoor storage...)

Regardless of how you actually do it, getting some of those items cleared out of the shop work area will be a huge improvement to your potential for productivity.

 

[86turbodsl]

I have 5 ibc's outside right now. They are far more valuable to me as oil storage than cut up. I get what you're saying though. IF i get to the point that i have to put things outside that are rain sensitive, i'll probably just tarp them. tarps can be folded up and shelved, ibc's once cut can never be anything else.

 

[Mark_17]

I'm not sure if I missed it, but there are a lot of really great phone apps for organizing you shop.

I helped a friend set up his shop, he had a couple pallet racks that we filled up with black totes. We tried to organize them in ways that would make sense but you can only do so much. He got an app similar to Box Organizer. It gives a QR code for each box, then you can label everything that is in them, including pictures. Saves us from having to rummage through every bin when we're looking for THAT ONE PART.

 

[bulletpruf]

I'm not sure if I missed it, but there are a lot of really great phone apps for organizing you shop.

I helped a friend set up his shop, he had a couple pallet racks that we filled up with black totes. We tried to organize them in ways that would make sense but you can only do so much. He got an app similar to Box Organizer. It gives a QR code for each box, then you can label everything that is in them, including pictures. Saves us from having to rummage through every bin when we're looking for THAT ONE PART.

Going to look into that app. thanks

 

[86turbodsl]

Moved a couple more pallets out this lunchtime. There's also a local auction with a cold saw going for a dollar.... i remained strong and did not bid.... that was hard.

EDIT: It went for 6 dollars....

 

[86turbodsl]

OMG.... Vintage dewalt RAS's going for 5-10 dollars... What a time to take a break from auctioning...

 

[Strouty]

Those cheap auction deals are the most expensive...

 

[86turbodsl]

Possibly... but i want to try... lol!

 

[bimmer1980]

It's good to stand strong..... Unless there is a tool that truly, and positively, fits your plan and is usable right out of the gate.

Remember, these good deals cost you time and floor space...in addition to the initial upfront cost, as well as the time/cost to repair. something to remember as all of us are shuffling **** around. (note--I include myself in that category too!!!)
Again, I have a "cheap" bandsaw in pieces in my shop and I have been dragging on completing the 'restoration'...... YMMV....

Regardless, good job on getting some stuff moved out! Are you noticing any appreciable floor space yet?

 

[86turbodsl]

Here's where we are right now:



The mower deck, pallet racking and wood pile are going outside. The wheels, i paid 200 to sandblast, so i think those are going in a garbage bag on a pallet to keep rain off. Everything that's moved outside so far is able to weather some rain.

So far i've moved out a mower, tires, snow plow and a drywall lift.

I have to get the space cleaned up. My kid got popped by the state police last night for loud exhaust. Now i have to get that exhaust on PDQ. I'm not sure what sort of ticket he got, but probably a fixit ticket, so it'll go away if i get the job done.

 

[kent_323is]

You're making progress! It's good to see some open floor space and wider paths to navigate through.
Good job on holding strong on not buying anything from the auction...so far anyway!
Keep chiseling away at it... I see lots of small kibbles and bits of items, those are the things I struggle with as well, so I feel your pain!