Above 1200 Sq/FT 86's 20HP shop

[86turbodsl]

From what I can tell it was sold as an IH4120 in 1978. It would have had a Kohler 16hp on it. It has a new 18hp Duro on it. I am not familiar with that brand. It runs good. It needs some work done on one hydro. Everything else has been rebuilt. It has some sort of quicktach on it but it's non standard. I doubt I'll do anything with it. Already have more capable forklifts.

 

[83VillageRepair]

Off for 5 days, the wife convinced me to go get this thing yesterday.

That fixes the worst feature on most skid steers, exiting out the front. Never have to crawl over or under a suspended load.

 

[86turbodsl]

So testing on the RPC is not going well. The motor I'm using tends to blow fuses. The spin up time is quite long. Thinking of replacing the motor with a 3ph and vfd so I can slow the ramp time to something usable.

 

[bulletpruf]

So testing on the RPC is not going well. The motor I'm using tends to blow fuses. The spin up time is quite long. Thinking of replacing the motor with a 3ph and vfd so I can slow the ramp time to something usable.

Need to start figuring out the same issues with my mill; it's 3 phase and I think a VFD is the easy button.

What sort of motor do you have on it now?

 

[86turbodsl]

Which motor the pony or the mill?

The pony is a 2hp compressor motor from my old air compressor. 3450 single phase 120v

 

[86turbodsl]

Just seems silly to use a vfd to spin a pony to start a rpc

 

[bimmer1980]

Is there a reason you don't use the traditional bank of capacitors to create a rotary phase converter? They sell a "static" converter kit that connects up to a motor of your choosing to make a rotary.

Otherwise, I have a 7.5 hp american rotary that works really well for my mill and lathe. One button push and it's on. Then fire up the equipment. When I'm done, one button push for off. It will even run the 15hp motor on the Piranha P50 for most of my needs....

 

[kent_323is]

86,
Just to be clear, the 2hp air-compressor motor is the one that's tripping fuses, and is slow to spin up?
It may be worth changing the capacitor(s) on that motor. I'd do some testing with the motor before going to a VFD.

 

[86turbodsl]

Is there a reason you don't use the traditional bank of capacitors to create a rotary phase converter? They sell a "static" converter kit that connects up to a motor of your choosing to make a rotary.

Otherwise, I have a 7.5 hp american rotary that works really well for my mill and lathe. One button push and it's on. Then fire up the equipment. When I'm done, one button push for off. It will even run the 15hp motor on the Piranha P50 for most of my needs....

7.5HP is about the limit to where an RPC can be cap started easily. Once you go over that, it starts to become a really big line surge. My power company actually has limits on what they will allow dropped on the line. if i remember right, its like 5hp or around there. We have a lot of electronics around here, and they tend to get really unhappy with brownouts. So there's multiple reasons.

The rpc idler is a 20hp TEFC WEG with a big flywheel on it. The spool up time on the assembly with the clutch and 2hp compressor motor is about 20 secs. The cord running the pony is getting quite warm and has tripped the breaker about 3/4 of the time before full spool up.

 

[86turbodsl]

86,
Just to be clear, the 2hp air-compressor motor is the one that's tripping fuses, and is slow to spin up?
It may be worth changing the capacitor(s) on that motor. I'd do some testing with the motor before going to a VFD.

Correct. The wire is becoming quite hot after a spin up. I was doing them back to back, but still, it shouldn't be warming up the wire that much. The cap is ok i think. It's one of those sears crapsman motors from like 2000, its a 2hp motor on a 120V line. It's marginal. Motor voltage is not selectable or i'd change it to 230v. The amperage on nameplate is 15A. it's on a 20A breaker. The 24V power supply for the clutch was on the same line and it couldn't even get one spin up, when i put the power supply on another breaker, i got one spin up. Then the wiring was too hot to continue.

 

[86turbodsl]

Supposedly some more of the box mounting supplies will be here today, then i can give another shop centric update. It'll be a good one i think. We'll see.

I've been prepping to get the CNC online. That means some more of the shop needs to get done. Then at some point, i need to get back on the heat for winter will be here very very shortly...

 

[86turbodsl]

Ok, so here's whats been happening. I ordered a bunch of electrical parts to get this stuff mounted up:




I had another shot of this from distance but this website doesn't like the photo for some reason.

Then once that was all installed, put an order in for wire at one of my online suppliers, and ordered a bunch of breakers off ebay. I can't believe how much the price of copper has gone up. So much so, that it was over $5/ft locally for the ONE size wire i needed, and so i went looking online. Ended up moving from copper to aluminum for the box wiring, and the branch circuits will stay copper. Much smaller gage.


The RPC will be capable of 125A single phase, which is roughly equivalent of 20HP matching the idler. The top box is the contactor / nema 4. Sized for 50HP, matching the old design, but i just don't need that much converter for what i'm doing anymore. Short of adding more vmc's anyway. The wiring design runs to the contactor first, then to the 3 phase panel, which the idler also backfeeds B phase. Since the whole shebang is energized by the building PLC, i don't need any contactors or relays in that circuit. The single contactor will protect the whole system and engage the idler into the lines. If the idler drops off for some reason, the building PLC can drop the contactor also.


The wife's car was wrecked again, less than a month after we got it back, so we sent that into the shop and i just got the old Audi back on the road for her to drive. There's something loose in the front end, but i can't find it and i've replaced everything up front. I guess we'll go until something breaks.

 

[86turbodsl]

Tore into the Hurco tonight. The old controller is off. The wiring is intimidating.

 

[86turbodsl]

I got the heavy wire run for the single phase supply last night. I don't think there's any way the #4 for the motor is going in the same conduit. So a bit of rethinking will be required. No wonder sparkies have firm handshakes. That stuff is tough to run. 2/0 aluminum.

 

[86turbodsl]

Had to go to 3 different stores in 2 cities to get the stuff i needed, but we have it all now. I won't have a chance to work on it until thurs night though.

 

[86turbodsl]

Got the new branch circuit for the syncrowave done this weekend. And pulled wire for the new RPC. Did some initial testing on it, but haven't run the idler yet. I need to continue with the control wiring before further testing.





I think this turned out pretty good.





The idler feeds directly to the 60A breaker you see in this shot. The square D contactor above feeds the whole panel from the main single phase panel. So no 3 phase equipment gets any current unless the contactor is on, and the idler has to be spinning before engagement or the breaker trips. i still need to come up with something to ensure its spinning (proof of spin) before engaging the contactor. Hopefully something simpler than an encoder.
With this setup, once the main idler is spinning and connected, dropping another idler online is as simple as a contactor and idler motor, up to the load of the breaker panel. Since this GE panel largest available breaker THQL is 125A, i won't be able to increase capacity beyond where we are right now. 60A x 1.73 is about 100A, so we're maxed out at maybe about 72A total 3 phase equipment.

With a single man shop, that's probably more than i need.

 

[86turbodsl]

Had to re-task for a while. Wife and son went up to the UP for family visit, so i have his truck on the lift. What a tight fit. There's something to be said for modern lifts. I am a fairly skinny guy, i had a lot of trouble getting the truck both centered on the lift, and squeezing out of the door after it was where it needed to be.

We're dropping fuel tanks for new senders and doing the yearly fluid film. There was BARELY enough room in the shop to get the truck in with all the stuff tetris'd into the sides. I really need to finish loading the pallet racking.

Anyways, i got it up in the air, rolled the trans jack over to get tanks started, and the trans jack only went up half way. Low on fluid. Ugh. It's always something. I'll pick up a few more quarts on the way home tonight, but this kind of **** is what slows a project down.

 

[Strouty]

You have me curious about how my 40 HP RPC starts, I haven't installed it yet, because I have to do something similar to what you are doing. I know my air compressor is a big draw on the local utility line, 10HP single phase, 236 amps inrush equals a bit of dim lights.

 

[86turbodsl]

Pony or cap start? There's no way i'd cap start a 40hp rpc. That'll brown out your house and all your neighbors and probably get a visit from the poco.

 

[Strouty]

It is a cap start, there is no pony. I will be curious to see what the specs are, I know the previous guy had 200 amp service and he was using two of them.

 

[86turbodsl]

I will be very curious to see how that works on your service.

 

[Strouty]

Well, I called Arco about the RPC and they say it can be used on a 200 amp service and that it requires a 60 AMP breaker using #8 wire, but it "could" draw 340 amps of inrush upon startup. They are going to send me all the info they can find on it, but it may be a "non" starter, LOL.

Just got the manual, appears that the guy was looking at the smaller unit for the wire and breaker, it requires 4 gauge wire and 80 AMP breaker. Interesting thing is it doesn't specify minimum service size or anything on the inrush. The unit itself has a maximum KVA of 132 on the tag.

 

[86turbodsl]

That is very interesting. I ran the load calcs on my 20hp, and installed a 60a breaker and #4 wire. I wonder how they are getting by with such small wire.

Inrush is about 7X rated FLA.

 

[Strouty]

The guy I bought it from could have been mistaken about his service size, but he didn't seem like that type. I want to upgrade my service anyways, so it may be the best thing to do. I have a small RPC and that works for most of my stuff anyways, I will have to talk with my electrician and get his thoughts. I know that the local POCO upgraded my transformer when I first started using my compressor.

 

[86turbodsl]

Ask yourself why you'd need 40hp. Unless you have a lot of simultaneous loads/cnc and or you have a 15hp compressor, i don't see the need. the original title of my thread was 50hp shop. And that was only because i found a 50hp motor 20 miles away for 50 bucks. When i later found a 20hp brand new motor for very cheap at auction, i jumped at it. running costs of large rpcs can get a little nutty.

 

[Strouty]

I have a 15HP motor on one item and then there is the 15 HP rotary screw compressor I would like to be able to use. It is a tough call for sure, my excuse for the power upgrade is running the overhead lines into a conduit would be nice so I don't have to worry about ripping them down with a forklift. Doing that is where most of my effort in time or money is going to go anyways as it is only about 40' from the pole to my building, so the cost of wire is really not an issue. Technically if you follow the 80% rule, I am already teasing the limit of a 200 amp service.

 

[86turbodsl]

i won't argue with a 200A shop service. that's where i'm at. Compressors are a hard start load, 3x is the rule. you can maybe do 2.5x if you have a flywheel on it. It's all about the inertia, both mechanical and electrical. 1X is normal for most uses though.

 

[Strouty]

Actually the compressor is only 10HP now that I think about it, the CNC has a 15HP motor. Funny thing is that I am pretty sure we were able to run the CNC spindle using my small RPC, probably because there was no load? Electrical stuff is magic.

 

[86turbodsl]

CNC spindles aren't a hard start.

 

[rpenterics]

need to come up with something to ensure its spinning (proof of spin) before engaging the contactor

Have you looked at a zero speed switch?

 

[86turbodsl]

No. Didn't know they existed. Based on my research just now, i can probably implement with a prox sensor on the PLC running everything.

 

[86turbodsl]

I also just figured out how to automate my garage door without an encoder... cool!

 

[86turbodsl]

I'm still alive, just stupid busy. This weekend i knocked out a new exhaust system on the daughter's Audi. That 4" was just too loud. I'll throw it on FB marketplace for someone to grab. We did the exhaust on Sunday, knocked it out in one day. One LONG day. I didn't have mandrel bends, so i cut pies and welded together. What a lot of tig work. I was exhausted.....

The shop needs a massive cleaning right now. Trying to get ready for winter, and managing the day job where things are ramping up. It's a whirlwind i have to say.

 

[bulletpruf]

The shop needs a massive cleaning right now. Trying to get ready for winter, and managing the day job where things are ramping up. It's a whirlwind i have to say.

I feel your pain. Damn day job interferes too much with turning wrenches!

 

[86turbodsl]

Aint that the truth.

 

[bulletpruf]

Aint that the truth.

I work by the hour these days, so when I'm busy, the bank account looks good, but I'd rather be poor with lots of garage time.

 

[86turbodsl]

I don't know anybody who did military time that isn't doing well after service, so i'm sure you're fine. It definitely is a balance though.

 

[bulletpruf]

I don't know anybody who did military time that isn't doing well after service, so i'm sure you're fine. It definitely is a balance though.

Yep. We could live off my pension if we were frugal.

 

[86turbodsl]

So my air compressor seems to have died. It's blowing the breaker now. I'm going to tear into it and see what's bad, but i'm thinking i'm not going to sink money into something that isn't a Quincy. Just sharing. I inherited from my dad, so there's some sentiment there.

 

[86turbodsl]

Confirmed electric motor is having an issue. Saw sparks fly out of the end, won't get up to full speed. It's single phase, so i'm assuming something wrong with the start circuit