A/C Condensing Unit Broke (Technical Help Needed)

[danielzig]

No air should be bypassing the coil. Hopefully your issues are solved.

 

[jonathan75]

No air should be bypassing the coil. Hopefully your issues are solved.

Thank you, so far so good. Air blows stronger now and no ice ups yet. Too soon to tell right now.

 

[jonathan75]

It happened again. Why does it only happen at night or over night? The whole thing is iced up solid. And because I taped up all the holes there is no air coming out of the vents at all right now.

 

[joel63]

It happened again. Why does it only happen at night or over night? The whole thing is iced up solid. And because I taped up all the holes there is no air coming out of the vents at all right now.

1. What is the outside temperature at night?

2. What is the thermostat setting at night?

 

[danielzig]

It happened again. Why does it only happen at night or over night? The whole thing is iced up solid. And because I taped up all the holes there is no air coming out of the vents at all right now.

I would start considering a leak as a possibility. Hook your new gauges up and see what your pressures are.

 

[jonathan75]

1. What is the outside temperature at night?

2. What is the thermostat setting at night?

Last night got down to 65F and I had it set to 77F in the house.

I would start considering a leak as a possibility. Hook your new gauges up and see what your pressures are.

Good idea, might as well try to learn how with my home A/C system. How do I hook it up? It is slightly different then using it on a mini split right.

 

[jonathan75]

A friend of mine had leaks in his Goodman A coil's. He has three units in his large house. He is going to sell his old outdoor units that are 2.5 ton and 3.0 ton. Should I buy one of them for a spare? He is asking $400. Or will R-22 cost too much to make it worth it.

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm/productID/453054785/p/Goodman_CKL30_1_Condenser

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct-453054783.htm

Update: He will let me have all the parts, air handler and outdoor units. His wife wants it gone. I can sell the parts and split the profit. I did a quick search and it is not worth as much as he first thought. Is it worth my time or should I keep one unit for a spare?

 

[danielzig]

A friend of mine had leaks in his Goodman A coil's. He has three units in his large house. He is going to sell his old outdoor units that are 2.5 ton and 3.0 ton. Should I buy one of them for a spare? He is asking $400. Or will R-22 cost too much to make it worth it.

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm/productID/453054785/p/Goodman_CKL30_1_Condenser

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct-453054783.htm

Update: He will let me have all the parts, air handler and outdoor units. His wife wants it gone. I can sell the parts and split the profit. I did a quick search and it is not worth as much as he first thought. Is it worth my time or should I keep one unit for a spare?

I might keep them for later use if I had the room. Selling used equipment seems like more work than I would want to deal with.

 

[danielzig]

As far as hooking up to your current system, just use the access ports on the condenser. Your gauges should have 1/4" standard connections. I would use the ball valve and put it on the end of the high side hose.

After you hook the hoses up, bleed the "air" from the hoses (high and low). Get your readings with an unfrozen coil. When going to disconnect, close the ball valve on the high side. Open the high side to the low side and let the refrigerant that has condensed in the high side hose back into the system. Disconnect both hoses.

 

[jonathan75]

As far as hooking up to your current system, just use the access ports on the condenser. Your gauges should have 1/4" standard connections. I would use the ball valve and put it on the end of the high side hose.

After you hook the hoses up, bleed the "air" from the hoses (high and low). Get your readings with an unfrozen coil. When going to disconnect, close the ball valve on the high side. Open the high side to the low side and let the refrigerant that has condensed in the high side hose back into the system. Disconnect both hoses.

I may need to search for a video online. I am more of a visual learner. After I see it everything will connect in my mind. Do you know of any good videos that shows the basics?

 

[dclassical]

You could try this YouTube channel... I remember some good videos on there, not sure if he has one for what you are looking for (I am not home, so I cannot look at them).

[DrZarkloff]

Remember that since you already have some tools, you might want to look at taking an online exam (can't remember the name of the certification now) so you can buy R22. Fairly easy to pass it.

Good luck,

dC

 

[joel63]

Last night got down to 65F and I had it set to 77F in the house.




Good idea, might as well try to learn how with my home A/C system. How do I hook it up? It is slightly different then using it on a mini split right.

3. When you check your low side pressure it should read 65 to 72 psi with the indoor temp close to 75° to 77°. (after the system has been running awhile and the indoor temperature is close to the setting)

Do you have a way to check the temperature of the suction line?
It should read about 25° to 35° above 32°. If it's close to 32° the coil is very close to icing up.

When it ices up, there's less heat transfer, and with the thermostat set that low with the outdoor temp that low, the coil will continue to ice up

4. During the day, when it's warm check the the low side pressure to make the system is not undercharged.

I hope you don't have a leaky coil.

 

[jonathan75]

You could try this YouTube channel... I remember some good videos on there, not sure if he has one for what you are looking for (I am not home, so I cannot look at them).

[DrZarkloff]

Remember that since you already have some tools, you might want to look at taking an online exam (can't remember the name of the certification now) so you can buy R22. Fairly easy to pass it.

Good luck,

dC

Thank you, I will check out some videos later and give it a shot. For now I will keep the fan running and not Auto and keep the temp at 79F so it does not have to work so hard. Good idea about buying some R22, I will look into that.

3. When you check your low side pressure it should read 65 to 72 psi with the indoor temp close to 75° to 77°. (after the system has been running awhile and the indoor temperature is close to the setting)

Do you have a way to check the temperature of the suction line?
It should read about 25° to 35° above 32°. If it's close to 32° the coil is very close to icing up.

When it ices up, there's less heat transfer, and with the thermostat set that low with the outdoor temp that low, the coil will continue to ice up

4. During the day, when it's warm check the the low side pressure to make the system is not undercharged.

I hope you don't have a leaky coil.

Thank you for more details. Tomorrow I will be working on my garage A/C but I hope to check everything soon and report back what I find. Hopefully my coil does not have a leak.

 

[jonathan75]

It didn't freeze up last night but I had it set to 79F and the fan running all the time. So when the compressor shuts off between cycles the fan will melt any ice that may of built up.

Will this not happen anymore when the nights get warmer as summer progresses?

 

[joel63]

It didn't freeze up last night but I had it set to 79F and the fan running all the time. So when the compressor shuts off between cycles the fan will melt any ice that may of built up.

Will this not happen anymore when the nights get warmer as summer progresses?

In normal operation the fan should cycle on and off with the compressor.

Also if the unit has the proper charge and air flow there should never be any ice forming on the coil.

Come back with the pressure readings that you got.

 

[jonathan75]

In normal operation the fan should cycle on and off with the compressor.

Also if the unit has the proper charge and air flow there should never be any ice forming on the coil.

Come back with the pressure readings that you got.

I know I got the air flow going good so it must be low on charge. It could be a slow leak because I just had it charged up two years ago.

Sorry I have not had a chance to do the pressure readings yet. I got busy moving three condenser units and air handlers in the morning and then cleaning up the mini split install I just did for my garage.

Which one of the three should I keep for myself? My house is a small 1377 square feet but it has a very big open ceiling. Does the coil have to match the unit or can you use any coil? How can I tell how much R-22 was pumped down to the compressor? Can I pressure test the A coils if I picked up some nitrogen? And can I pressure test the condensing unit with a charge in the compressor?

My friend told me the reason he had all replaced is because there was a slow leak. The cost to check it out was so expensive they were convinced to buy three new units. Their house is MUCH bigger then mine. I only have to have one but it would be nice to have a separate unit upstairs.

You can see in one of the pictures where the cap exploded. It was replaced and running before it was removed from service.

 

[jonathan75]

More pictures from my haul. I was singing the theme song from Sanford and Sons the whole way home. The truck bed was full! Good thing my neighbor has a truck he let me use.

 

[danielzig]

Your friend must have more money than he knows what to do with. 3 system replacement because one was leaking? Wow.

 

[truckman5000]

dont get a used one.
Mainly the Goodman are newer and are probably 12-13 seer. The condenser you have is probably a 10 seer. So you would have to change the orifice/ metering devise in the air handler. Witch is not a DIY.

You can add a refrigerant die to the refrigerant. The die will show up were the leak is. Theres a patch kit out there that ive used (were there was no way to fix the leak) The customers equipment has been fine for acouple years now.
And theres also a stop leak that you can add to the refrigerant. This maybee your best bet. As its probably a small leak.

As air filters go. Great job cleaning the coil. Get a 5" filter media box. Ive run into the new 3m. 1" filters (they say they stop 100% dirt) cause air flow problems. If not changed very often.

 

[jonathan75]

Your friend must have more money than he knows what to do with. 3 system replacement because one was leaking? Wow.

I think all of them had a suspected leak. They convinced them that the cost of diagnose and repair made it not worth to fix them all.

dont get a used one.
Mainly the Goodman are newer and are probably 12-13 seer. The condenser you have is probably a 10 seer. So you would have to change the orifice/ metering devise in the air handler. Witch is not a DIY.

You can add a refrigerant die to the refrigerant. The die will show up were the leak is. Theres a patch kit out there that ive used (were there was no way to fix the leak) The customers equipment has been fine for acouple years now.
And theres also a stop leak that you can add to the refrigerant. This maybee your best bet. As its probably a small leak.

As air filters go. Great job cleaning the coil. Get a 5" filter media box. Ive run into the new 3m. 1" filters (they say they stop 100% dirt) cause air flow problems. If not changed very often.

Can I use one of the removed condensers and coil as a pair and not use the rest of the air handling equipment? Maybe I can test all three to see if one of the coils do not have a leak. Those pipes on all the units had some very ugly brazes. It is possible the leak could of been from one of those or a bad schrader valve.

When I hook up the low side to test the pressure can I do it bare handed or do I need to use gloves? Some of the refrigerant should come out when I attach it but I don't know what the normal procedure is for that.

 

[danielzig]

Low side is no problem. Should be no liquid. Dont wear gloves. I was wearing gloves once dismantling a txv which had trapped refrigerant, liquid got to the gloves and gave me frostbite before I could get the glove off.

 

[jonathan75]

Low side is no problem. Should be no liquid. Dont wear gloves. I was wearing gloves once dismantling a txv which had trapped refrigerant, liquid got to the gloves and gave me frostbite before I could get the glove off.

What about the high side? Do you need gloves for the high side? Also do I need to attach both to figure out if it is low? Or is the low side enough to make an assessment?

 

[brewchief]

What about the high side? Do you need gloves for the high side? Also do I need to attach both to figure out if it is low? Or is the low side enough to make an assessment?

You need to know whether you have a TXV or fixed orifice coil to determine what method needs to be used to check the charge. TXV will be subcooling and fixed orifice will be superheat.

Superheat you will be checking the temp and pressure of the low side, subcooling the highside.

There should be a chart inside the outside units cover that will tell you what superheat or subcooling you are trying to achieve.

 

[jonathan75]

You need to know whether you have a TXV or fixed orifice coil to determine what method needs to be used to check the charge. TXV will be subcooling and fixed orifice will be superheat.

Superheat you will be checking the temp and pressure of the low side, subcooling the highside.

There should be a chart inside the outside units cover that will tell you what superheat or subcooling you are trying to achieve.

Here is the information I could find. My outdoor unit is a Coleman BRCS0301BD which is the third one over or down on most of the carts and I think my coil is HA030230 which does not match anything on Coleman charts. I think it is a coil that came inside with my Apollo Hydro Heat air handler and not from Coleman. But I did find a match on this Google search.

http://www.heatingandcoolingwarehou...ir_Conditioning_Coil_p/ha03230a140a000467.htm

Here are some charts I found online from the manual. There was a paper inside my unit but after 11 years it was destroyed.

http://www.master.ca/documents/0BRCSTechnicalGuide-0103.pdf

 

[jonathan75]

I just found a page from my Apollo manual which I think my coil came with it based on what I can see. It looks like a cross matched system. I am not sure how normal that is to mix and match but my Outdoor unit is Coleman and my air-handler with A-Coil and heat is Apollo. But here they talk about Superheat testing.

http://www.inspectorsjournal.com/forum/uploads/Jim Katen/2010128214157_om_airhandler.pdf

 

[jonathan75]

Sorry for the delay in getting back with results from testing. Because I have to travel so much I have to prioritize what I get done around the house. So I just got around to testing today.

Here are pictures from the testing. Let me know what I should do next. These readings are from after the unit was running for over 30 minutes. Also I found a chart online that I filled out the best I could. Not sure if I filled it out correctly so please check the pictures to compare.

Here is a video from the testing so you can see what the gauges do when I turn it on and while it is running.

 

[jonathan75]

One more thing is I found this chart on the back of the cover when I changed the cap. The cap was over 11 years old so I didn't want it to fail when I was out of town.

How do I read this chart? Is the left row outdoor temperature and the top line suction line temperature? Is so from what it looks like I should be around 66 PSI and I am at 41 PSI.

 

[Heatdr]

IS the large pipe frosting up,it could either be low on refrigerant,dirty filter or slow running blower motor.I am assuming by the pressures that its an R-22 unit.It looks like an old york or coleman heat pump by the number.The number on the inside is the temperature of the large pipe up close to the guage port.

 

[jonathan75]

IS the large pipe frosting up,it could either be low on refrigerant,dirty filter or slow running blower motor.I am assuming by the pressures that its an R-22 unit.It looks like an old york or coleman heat pump by the number.The number on the inside is the temperature of the large pipe up close to the guage port.

It is the large suction line (vapor) that will freeze up all the way back to the A-Coil and the compressor. I already checked everything else so testing Super Heat was the last step. If I did it right it looks like my Super Heat is 61.6 and it should be around 15 I guess. So I think I am low on R22 but hoping someone can check my numbers to be sure.

 

[Heatdr]

your numbers are right,its low on refrigerant,normally that style unit leaks at the accumulator,its a tank in the condenser and they are made of steel and rot away.

 

[jonathan75]

your numbers are right,its low on refrigerant,normally that style unit leaks at the accumulator,its a tank in the condenser and they are made of steel and rot away.

I would like to add more R22 and monitor the leak rate. I am really hoping to limp it along for a few more years if possible. How much R22 do I add? Do I open the valve on the tank first and then crack open the valve on the low side gauge while the unit is running and monitor the pressure increase? Do I just do a little at a time and recalculate my Super Heat every 5 minutes after adding some?

 

[brewchief]

I would like to add more R22 and monitor the leak rate. I am really hoping to limp it along for a few more years if possible. How much R22 do I add? Do I open the valve on the tank first and then crack open the valve on the low side gauge while the unit is running and monitor the pressure increase? Do I just do a little at a time and recalculate my Super Heat every 5 minutes after adding some?

Open the tank valve then loosen the hose slightly at the gauges to bleed out any air, do the same for the low side hose. Add slowly though the low side, since it's r-22 and you're new at this keep the jug upright and charge vapor, it will take longer but is much safer for your equipment.

Add some, check your superheat, add some, check your superheat.

The chart with the super heat on it needs outdoor temp and indoor wetbulb, if you wrap a wet cloth around your temp probe and place it in the inlet of the airhandler you can get an accurate wet bulb temp. I use a piece of the tubular string from a hooded sweatshirt on my temp probe for this.

Check your temp drop across the indoor coil, with an r-22 system you should have in the neighborhood of 20 degrees when properly charged, this can vary some but if its a 5 degree drop or 35 degree drop you have other problems.

 

[jonathan75]

Open the tank valve then loosen the hose slightly at the gauges to bleed out any air, do the same for the low side hose. Add slowly though the low side, since it's r-22 and you're new at this keep the jug upright and charge vapor, it will take longer but is much safer for your equipment.

Add some, check your superheat, add some, check your superheat.

The chart with the super heat on it needs outdoor temp and indoor wetbulb, if you wrap a wet cloth around your temp probe and place it in the inlet of the airhandler you can get an accurate wet bulb temp. I use a piece of the tubular string from a hooded sweatshirt on my temp probe for this.

Check your temp drop across the indoor coil, with an r-22 system you should have in the neighborhood of 20 degrees when properly charged, this can vary some but if its a 5 degree drop or 35 degree drop you have other problems.

Thank you for teaching me how to test the wetbulb temp in the house. When I test the condenser air inlet is that basically the outdoor temperature close to where it is pulling in air from the coils and fins on the outdoor unit?

Right now my drybulb temp drop from air entering the filter to the air coming out of the vent is 11 degrees apart. 78.3F in and 66.6 out.

 

[jonathan75]

Is it safe to assume that I should just keep adding to I get to at least 50 PSI before I need to start calculating between stabilization periods? The lowest I see on this chart behind the cover is 54 PSIG. Which do I go to 54 PSI on my gauge or do I need to add 14.7 to the 54? I don't understand what they want when they say PSIG. Do I need to factor in my altitude at my house?

I still don't know for sure if the table I found in my unit the left side is outdoor temperature and the top line is vapor line temperature? Do I use this chart and Super Heat together to see if they match close?

 

[brewchief]

I would expect that you will end up in the mid 60s to low 70s when your charge is correct, I would add untill you are mid 50s before checking superheat.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[bazar01]

Add until you go above 32F on the suction temperature scale for R22 then check for superheat and add until you have the correct SH from the chart.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

your numbers are right,its low on refrigerant,normally that style unit leaks at the accumulator,its a tank in the condenser and they are made of steel and rot away.

God, I can't even count how many of those I replaced back in the 90's. Carrier units used to rot out the accumulator joints right around the 12 year mark, almost like clockwork.

Tommy

 

[jonathan75]

Thank you for all the tips. Tomorrow morning I will charge up the unit.

I just got back in town today and took the EPA test from my hotel room last night. I only missed two questions out of 50 and was able to print out my ID when I got back. The first thing I did was head out to buy some R-22!

 

[danielzig]

Thank you for all the tips. Tomorrow morning I will charge up the unit.

I just got back in town today and took the EPA test from my hotel room last night. I only missed two questions out of 50 and was able to print out my ID when I got back. The first thing I did was head out to buy some R-22!

How much did that run you? About 300?

 

[jonathan75]

How much did that run you? About 300?

It was only $220, brand new sealed.