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A different TIG torch recommendation

rmack898

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I just got a job in the shop that is hard to weld with the torches I have. The job is welding small diameter (3/8" OD) thin wall (.065") at various angles.

I'm thinking of a micro torch. I'm welding at around 70 amps so I'm thinking an air cooled torch should work.
I'm currently using a 20 series water cooled torch with a gas lens and a stub back cap.

What works for you?
 
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silentpoet

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Air cooled should work fine. How about one of those CK swivel torches? Might help with those odd angles. Weldmonger has them for 229, not sure if that is a great deal or not.
 

Jlarson

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We use CK9's with either a mid or button cap for small tube usually.
 
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rmack898

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Here are a few pics of what I need to do and the current smallest torch I have.
I'm thinking about a CK micro MR-140.

Does anyone use or have this torch and can comment on it?
tempImagemczBAm.jpg

tempImaged13SnK.jpg
tempImagef9rGuC.jpg
 

Graham08

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I weld stuff that size with my #20 all the time. I can't really comment on the micro torches because I've never used one. Looking at your example welds, I do have a couple thoughts that might help your cause.

1. What size filler are you using? When I weld 0.065" wall tube, I generally run 0.045" rod instead of 1/16". It helps keep the amount of heat I'm putting into the weld under control and it's more consistent to feed. I'll even straighten 0.035" MIG wire for headers and sheet metal work for the same reason.

2. Have you tried using emery cloth or similar to remove the mill scale from the tubes? That helps a lot in getting good consistent welds, too. The mill scale melts at a higher temp than the base material which makes it difficult to be consistent with thin tube.

I generally run a #8 gas lens and 3/32" tungsten for that sort of stuff...though I do drop down to 1/16" tungsten when I'm doing a lot of **** welds (exhaust headers). I'll hang the tungsten out a bit to get into the crotch of those miter joints, then pull it back in for the rest of the joint.

A #20 water cooled is the same size torch as the #9 air cooled mentioned in a couple posts above. They take the same consumables.
 

tdkkart

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Maybe turn up the flow and get rid of the gas lens(you're not paying for the gas), then clean the tubing and you'll have better luck.
 

Jlarson

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I usually go to the 9 instead of the 20 for small stuff cause I don't care to drag the water lines around on low amp stuff. A couple die grinders with some schotchbrite and some flap wheels would help too along with some wipes and acetone.
 

zmotorsports

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Mac, by looking at those examples they appear to have a lot of heat put into them so I'll give my thoughts on welding small diameter tubing.

My experience is very, very similar to Graham's. I have no experience with a "micro" torch and have done ALL of my TIG welding with my #20 series torches over the years. I did a lot of chassis work on sand drag quads and sand rails where I was using everything from .5" diameter/.049" wall 4130 chromoly to .875" diameter/.065" wall 4130 tubing for the ATV chassis and upwards of 1" diameter/.065" wall to 1.5" diameter/.083" wall 4130 chromoly tubing for the sandrails. The 20-series worked great in all situations. A few years ago I replaced my standard 20 series with a CK 20 series FlexLoc style torch (230-amp version) and absolutely love this torch and cable setup.

I also recommend that you try using smaller diameter TIG rod. The old standard of using similar thickness TIG rod as the parent material kind of goes by the wayside when you get to the thin stuff. I found out the hard way and was burning holes in the tubing or getting excessive burn back at the edges when I was first starting out building chassis using thin wall chromoly. I began wondering if I was having to put so much heat into the parent material to get the rod to melt was the issue so I went to smaller diameter welding rod and BINGO, that was the answer. I found that it was easier to push more smaller rod into the molten puddle than it was to try and just dip a "little" bit of the larger diameter rod into the puddle.

For pretty much everything on these chassis I was using .045" tig rod. For the 4130 chromoly I was using ER80S-D2. When I would get down to the .049" wall thickness 1/2" diameter tubing I would use .035" rod and when I got up to the 1.5" I would sometimes jump up to the .062" diameter TIG rod. Depending on the joint and whether I was using .083" or .095" wall thickness would usually depend on whether I would jump up to 1/16" rod or stick with the .045" rod.

Also, try cleaning your joints with either a red Scotchbrite pad or emery cloth and then a final wipe with acetone of the joint as well as your TIG rod. Believe it or not, this final wipe does help and is quick and easy so really doesn't affect proficiency for what you gain in overall weld quality.

I use a gas lens on everything and bounce back and forth between either 3/32" tungsten and 1/16" tungsten depending on the wall thickness and amperage using at the time. The majority of the time my TIG torch has a 3/32" tungsten and #8 cup but there are times I will step down to 1/16" tungsten and maybe a #5 cup but always a gas lens. When I need more stickout and/or welding stainless I have a couple of the Furick #10 and #12 cups that I purchased to try a few years ago and I really like them for gas coverage, especially on stainless steel or in those situations where I need more stickout then normal. I like to keep my stickout no more than half the diameter of the cup but that can be fudged a bit on occasion and by situation. For tungsten I switched over to using 2% Lanthanated several years ago and now I use it 100% of the time.

**On edit, one more thought came to mind.
When setting up joints, I use a method called "blast tacking". This is where I turn up my amperage almost another 50% more than I would use for welding a particular joint. Once the components are placed in position I hit a few areas with max pedal and the arc jumps the gap and "blasts" a high energy burst to the metal. This will create a very small tack with no filler. I prefer to use this method when I can so when I start my welding sequence I can weld directly over the tack without having a big bump where the tack weld deposit was made when using filler rod.

Also, where you place the tacks is important to help the flow of weld around the joint. I like to look at 3 to 4 tacks placed around the sequence of where I will be welding that won't intersect a start or stop point. I have found that if you have a tack holding a joint together and then you light up on that tack with your arc to start the first weld in the sequence, as soon as the tack goes molten it can allow the joint to move and a gap open up. I will start other than on a tack.

Same thing when plate welding. I may put a tack on the end of a joint where it is easy at first but then I will add another tack inboard of the end about a quarter of an inch or so. This way when I light up on the end and that outermost tack goes molten the joint stays where you put it. At the other end of the joint sometimes I will add a bit of a larger tack before beginning the welding sequence. This way as I progress towards the end with the weld and the heat is trying to run off the end of the part, that larger tack will act as a dam or sink to prevent the end of the part from melting back.

Hope that all makes sense, it was hard to get my fingers to relay what I was trying to say. :headscrat
 
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rmack898

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Thanks to all for your suggestions and comments.

A little more disclosure. The samples in the pics are of pieces of tube that I took out of the scrap bin. No attention was made for proper fit up or cleaning. I was merely trying to see if I could get my torch into the joint to weld.

The material is 4130 thin wall tubing in .375, .050, and .875" OD. There will also be some 1.5 x .75 rectangular tube. All tubes will come to me in kit form and be pre-cut and machine coped for fit up. The tubes are clamped in a customer supplied, fully gimbled jig permitting most welds to be done in position.

The trial pieces I did were with a 1/16", 2% lanthanated tungsten and .045" ER 80 S filler.
While rooting through my supply drawer I found a close quarters kit for my 20 torch that I didn't know I had so I will give that a try. I'm also thinking that I may try the 3/32" tungsten to get the heat into the tube faster as I my be lingering too long with the 1/16" tungsten therefore putting too much heat in the tube.
I didn't have access to the assembly drawings when I put my test pieces together but having seen the drawings now, I will have much more room around each joint than in my test sample.

There are two separate assemblies that I will be doing, one large and one small and they are currently taking the customer 40 and 20 hours respectively to weld out. I am looking to do one of each per month. This will be a nice retirement gig for me to do at my leisure.
 

thejimmy

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I would use my 20 torch, you can weld some and then skip around to other joints to keep the heat input down if that's an issue. Also clean the tubes well as already suggested, 1/16" wall isn't that thin especially if you have a good fitup
 

SM Racing

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You need better gas coverage whatever you do. The torch setup seems OK and the filler selection is OK. Might could do to a .035 filler if you can find it. Are they heat treating after welding?

If I were doing this job I would be rocking my Furick Fupa or *** and let the tungsten stick out enough to hit the middle of the tightest spot. Run the gas flow up to about 30 and those welds will look mighty fine. I would clean the joints as well no matter what. 4130 has that stupid mill scale unlike DOCOL or P&0 DOM.
 

corn chip

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ive had the ck watercooled micro for couple years. its ok but if i were doing it over then probly i would go weldtec micro watercool. it has flex shaft version and i like the head design better. also they will custom make different shaft lengths. perhaps i may even just buy the weldtec micro one of these days. its amp rating is just 125 where as the ck claims 140 but theyll go above the rating without any trouble and you can mix in helium to make it a super micro. thats what i did.
i dont use the micro everyday or even every week but its been a great addition to the stable. some people may never have a need for one.
 
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rmack898

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Well I picked up the CK MR140 micro.
I ran it only for a few minutes to try it and I'm really liking this torch. It really is small and can get into some really tight places. I need to pick up some quick couplers for the water lines to make easier to switch between torches. I was a little disappointed that is didn't come with a protective sleeve for the hoses but other than that it is a nice addition to the shop.

I won't get back on this job until after next week but I'll report back once I have used it a bit.

tempImageIOwB95.jpg
 

Bigblue&Goldie

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I'd be interested to know how the tungsten retention works on that torch? It appears there's no back cap, so do you have to cut each tungsten to length?
 

matt_i

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Another "tip" passed to me from a mentor, when the work is thin keep the tungsten point sharp as a pencil. It will keep the arc focused without a lot of extra amperage that's detrimental in thin work. If it loses the point due to it melting into "dullness", then stop more often and "sharpen". In his words: " ya gotta point the heat".
 
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