K5blazer83
Well-known member
Couldn't have said it better myself. The sad part is I don't think we'll ever recover. The good old days are long gone.
A quality Chinese tool
- Thread starter MarcSeattle
- Start date
Couldn't have said it better myself. The sad part is I don't think we'll ever recover. The good old days are long gone.
As long as the US made versions are top notch, sure, I will. If we start getting a better bang for the buck from offshore tools, what are we to do? I'm sure it's the company's fault, but when I receive inferior US made tools that never should have left the factory, who's to blame?
K5blazer83
Well-known member
What people don't understand is that if it's not made in China/Taiwan it'll be made in India or some other third world country that uses inferior manufacturing. Why you ask? Because manufacturers cannot afford to keep work in this country. The cost of manufacturing is too high here so naturally overseas is their only choice. We can blame ourselves for that. The labor unions are always on strike and constantly demanding raises.
Good point! While you guys are on here in a ******* match, the entire industrial segment still goes to China etc.................Not buying them does not help, look at VA and Vise Grip, etc.............
I can sum up the Garage Journal in one phrase. If it is not Snap-on or GM made it is junk, and we are lowly folks for even thinking of looking for the best made, best priced brands that are non-American, while the "American" companies are China back dooring us anyway.
It all gets old. I have taken pics of my vast assortment or GearWrench ratcheting wrench sets, and never posted a thread on here due to the known post results, why waste my time.
So you guys can all piss and moan on here, about the same stuff over and over again. It has become a real yawn session.
Yeah it doesnt have anything to do with profit margins.
LoL, I love the sunday funnies.
Good point! While you guys are on here in a ******* match, the entire industrial segment still goes to China etc.................Not buying them does not help, look at VA and Vise Grip, etc.............
I can sum up the Garage Journal in one phrase. If it is not Snap-on or GM made it is junk, and we are lowly folks for even thinking of looking for the best made, best priced brands that are non-American, while the "American" companies are China back dooring us anyway.
It all gets old. I have taken pics of my vast assortment or GearWrench ratcheting wrench sets, and never posted a thread on here due to the known post resuilts, why waste my time.
So you guys can all piss and moan on here, about the same stuff over and over again. It has become a real yawn session.
GearWrench is Da' DEVIL
China and now India don't need to make quality tools or anything else for that matter as we're a throw away nation. Most people here don't buy anything expecting to keep it forever. From cars to electronics hell even pets are disposable. Many people go for the latest trend, fad, or just to keep up with the Jones so to speak. Very few people keep things forever any more. It's a different system of values these days. It also goes along with the lack of a work ethic and that most people don't want to work, they want to get paid to dress up and do nothing.
Sadly, anyone who thinks we're going to prevent this country's demise by buying USA made, is mistaken. It's a losing battle, especially because of what I bolded.
This country has lost its values, except for the old timers (which is REALLY sad for me to say, considering I'm only 28). They still live on in some, but it's the minority.
I still try to do what I can, buy American when possible, but TBH sometimes I wonder if half of the lazy, self-entitled slobs in this country deserve my business, or just deserve to go to hell in a handbasket with the rest of us.
I own my own company and make my products in the USA 100%, down to the nuts and bolts, but I feel as if I'm the dutch boy with his finger in a dike.
Unions helped build this country up, and they'll help tear it down.
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Lol Ive seen more concessions from the unions in all avenues over the last 15 years to try and keep jobs here in the states and prevent companies from shipping work overseas. Without a doubt there have been some very powerfull unions that have given "Unions" a bad name over the years, but times have changed and even UAW has been forced to make changes to there policies and negotionations. Nobody ever wants to talk about the good things unions do for America, Ever compared a union electrician to a flunky working out his basement? What about the Trains carrying Hazardous Material thru your town? If the Railroads had there way there would be 1 person operating these trains, They dont care about the safety of the public. It boils down to Money and how much they can make regardless of the cost.
hammergodthor
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2009
- Messages
- 475
Good point! While you guys are on here in a ******* match, the entire industrial segment still goes to China etc.................Not buying them does not help, look at VA and Vise Grip, etc.............
I can sum up the Garage Journal in one phrase. If it is not Snap-on or GM made it is junk, and we are lowly folks for even thinking of looking for the best made, best priced brands that are non-American, while the "American" companies are China back dooring us anyway.
It all gets old. I have taken pics of my vast assortment or GearWrench ratcheting wrench sets, and never posted a thread on here due to the known post results, why waste my time.
So you guys can all piss and moan on here, about the same stuff over and over again. It has become a real yawn session.
Hey! I want to see pictures of your Gearwrenches and know what you think about the different styles. Ignore the pissers, just post pics of your tools!
Fedwrench
ALLIANCE MEMBER
This thread can go on forever and not really say much. The true test of a tool's quality is how it stands up to the rigors of sustained use over time. I have most of Gearwrench's line. They serve me well and have held up so far but, it's only been a few years for some items. Come back in 5-10 years and ask me how they've held up. I do feel that even Gearwrench quality dipped slightly when production move from Taiwan to the PRC but, that's just my opinion. There are many Danaher haters on the board. Personally, I prefer Danaher tools myself. They've served me well over the years through a variety of brands.
My dad was a union electrician for 30 years, so yes I've compared a union electrician to one working out of a basement.
I love to talk about the good things that unions did for America, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me that they're currently doing anything that is net positive.
A concession is not a concession when it isn't something that shouldn't have been given in the first place.
Paying an assembly line worker $30/hr for a $10/hr job and then tacking on retirement is not economically viable... we've seen the effects of this over the past 30 or so years, and it STILL hasn't sunk in... I guess once you overpay someone, it's hard to convince them they deserve anything different.
When you have a lineman getting paid more than a brain surgeon, something is wrong... terribly wrong. Yes, I know linemen, and I also know a brain surgeon. I personally have witnessed a lineman being paid more than a brain surgeon for a calendar year.
Look, I wish just as much as anyone that everyone could make $100/hr, have 100% retirement, full benefits, and be truly compensated for destroying their body for someone else's benefit over their whole lives. Unfortunately, when you've got billions of people on the planet who are willing to work twice as hard for one quarter as much, it's time to snap back into reality, or become competitive again.
There's only two ways to succeed in business, quality (which can be interchanged for innovation), or quantity. American quality is slipping, and we can't keep up in quantity.
Is it all the union's fault? NO. There's a lot of players responsible. In this case, since we are discussing tools, the blame falls on the back of uncompetitive, overpriced American manufacturing. The employees who demand more than they're worth are just as much to blame as the companies that continually cut corners in pursuit of the dollar.
If you want to talk LOL, what is truly funny is that the same Democrat politicians that most union members support are the ones giving away all of their tax money to poeple that don't work, and taxing their employers so heavily that they chase them right out of the country.
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I agree with alot of what you say, But its obvious you are using UAW workers as your typical "Unions are Evil" reasoning. There are numerous Union employers who still make a hefty profit and Keep the Middle Class powerfull, Hell even the Automakers made hefty profits up untill the last 5-6 years and anybody who blames Unions as there downfall is living in a dream world. Alot of the programs that people like to blame the unions for, such as programs for paying a percentage of there pay to laid off workers was actually initiated by the company. NOT the Unions...
All I'm saying is that at one point, unions were defenders, but now they (some at least) are turning into rulers.
I absolutely agree with you about keeping power in the middle class... we need every little bit we can get, but in cases where that power is abused, it can wreak serious havoc.
My dad is now retired, but I have another good friend who is a union electrician. He is a hard working man... but some of the stories he tells me about his fellow union workers are absolutely gut-wrenching, and it hasn't just been electricians; IBEW is not the only union I've had contact with.
I used to do low voltage installs for home theater and came into contact with a lot of tradesmen during that time, and I've heard and seen good and bad, sometimes disturbingly bad. I also had another very good friend that was a union ironworker.
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I believe a lot of us hear like Gearwrench stuff even the chinese made ratcheting wrenches.
Again, There are very few Unions in this country who even have the power to strike. I work for one of the biggest unions in the country and our power to strike is kaput, We can strike.. but within minutes there is a judge with a executive order putting us back to work. Ive personally been in Auto plants, I know what goes on in there and there is no doubt its a coosh job, I dont agree that Auto workers should only be paid $10 bucks a hour to assemble vehicles but i agree the benefit comunication between the to should be based on the current economic sitsuation and a Properly managed company. In other words dont cry about losing money and expect your employees to take a pay cut and then give out bonuses the next day. Do you agree?
Absolutely, 110%.
Lump
Well-known member
Off of unions for a minute, and back to Chinese "quality" versus US quality. There are MANY more factors that lead to the end result of the product-quality issue. I traveled to Taiwan to visit a factory there which stamps out replacement body panels for US muscle cars. (There are several companies which do this over there...and they are not all the same). I quickly learned that culture differences contribute to some quality problems. For example, they cannot understand for the life of them, why we American car collectors want the underside of a hood (for example), to look exactly like the original hood underside...especially when we plan to cover most of it with hood insulation! To them, this lacks common sense. They feel that if they can use more modern manufacturing methods and newer steel alloys to make thinner, lighter hoods cheaper...then why would we insist on using thicker, heavier hoods with old-style bracing underneath? That just doesn't make good sense to them. Yet the exact original style is exactly what we really do want (yes, me too!) But, once they FULLY understand exactly what we want to achieve, SOME of them are very, very good at it. And my client has had NO luck finding a US company who will even quote a job to manufacture small quanitities of major body panels...such as 250 left rear quarter panels for one model year of one car. American workers are not stupid, lazy, or incapable. But we must make ourselves competitive, whether that means "comfortable" or not!!
Lump
Well-known member
I used to turn wrenches for a living, 30 years ago when I was a street-racing kid. Then I became an apprentice sheet metal worker, eventually earning my journeyman card in the Sheet Metal Workers AFL-CIO. I worked hard every day, and my apprenticeship training was provided and paid for by my union...not by any employer. I became a loyal union member, and prided myself in being a hard-working SKILLED sheet metal worker. Sadly, there were many other people around me (especially in other trades, and in the GM factories where I was often sent on a job), who did not earn their money each day. One time they caught a GM worker on camera, who came in to work each night on 3rd shift, and then went outside and climbed over a fence, where his wife picked him up in a car and drove him home. He came back just in time to clock out next morning. They filmed him doing that every day. He was fired...but the union fought for him, and when the next contract was settled, his case was folded up into lots of other cases, and he was hired back...with back pay. I was gone when he returned, as my job there was completed long ago. But people I knew there told me what eventually happened. So...who was that guy stealing from? YOU AND ME, and every single working American.
Lump
Well-known member
But Unions are not the "bad guy" either. It's not as simple as that. For example, do you like weekends off? THANK THE TRADE UNIONS! Unions were created when greedy companies would virtually enslave their workers, paying them pennies, and keeping ALL the profits. So the people organized for collective bargaining power, and gained the ability to force companies to treat them fairly. True, some individuals began to take advantage of the system, and some eventually began to get paid more than they were truly worth. But keep in mind that working conditions in a society are much like the pendulum on a clock. When they swing too far one way (IE: slave-like conditions), then they MUST swing back the other way. Conversely, if they now swing too far the other way, they will come roaring back.
Lump
Well-known member
I grew up in a GM town, and many of my friends and relatives worked in GM factories. I can tell you for a fact that, while there are indeed many stories of union workers getting paid without working, it is ALSO true that GM has long had a reputation for having a bloated and overloaded middle-management layer. My brother-in-law worked as a tool-maker for GM, and when he started in his particular tool shop there were about 40 men, working for 11 bosses. When GM started reducing their workforce through attrition (IE: not replacing retirees, etc) the tool shop he worked in was staffed by fewer and fewer toolmakers. When he finally retired, the shop was down to six guys. Guess how many bosses they had at that point? YUP!!! It was still eleven. 
You can't blame that on the unions.
You can't blame that on the unions.poprockcrusher
Banned
they have done a damn good job of killing our lil economy
keep throwing them a bone , it is all of the greedy capitalists fault
a few tariffs would be a help
Lump
Well-known member
Maybe so, but even tariffs are complicated, and not a simple solution.
For example, a few years ago the USA imposed a heavy tariff on unfinished steel (IE sheets and rolls of sheet metal). Our steel industry was hurting badly, and had begged the government for protection from cheap imported sheets/rolls of steel. The tariffs were imposed with our government's good intentions, but almost immediately OTHER US industries were put in jeopardy. For example, now US manufacturers of steel products like bumpers, roll bars, and exhaust headers saw their costs for raw goods double and even triple. And US steel manufacturers had scaled back operations so much that they could not keep in with the new demand. But competitive manufacturers in other countries did not see any shortages or any cost increase for unfinished steel products, so their profit margins soared, and their market in the US jumped significantly. One of my clients testified before the US Congress, begging them to drop their tariffs so his company (a US manufacturer of roll bars, grille guards, step bumpers, etc), could compete with offshore products. Like everyone in Garage Journal, I want America to prosper, and make its own products whenever possible. But the solution is not easy to find...
For example, a few years ago the USA imposed a heavy tariff on unfinished steel (IE sheets and rolls of sheet metal). Our steel industry was hurting badly, and had begged the government for protection from cheap imported sheets/rolls of steel. The tariffs were imposed with our government's good intentions, but almost immediately OTHER US industries were put in jeopardy. For example, now US manufacturers of steel products like bumpers, roll bars, and exhaust headers saw their costs for raw goods double and even triple. And US steel manufacturers had scaled back operations so much that they could not keep in with the new demand. But competitive manufacturers in other countries did not see any shortages or any cost increase for unfinished steel products, so their profit margins soared, and their market in the US jumped significantly. One of my clients testified before the US Congress, begging them to drop their tariffs so his company (a US manufacturer of roll bars, grille guards, step bumpers, etc), could compete with offshore products. Like everyone in Garage Journal, I want America to prosper, and make its own products whenever possible. But the solution is not easy to find...Bingo!! It would do little good to completely stop buying Import tools, Imported or not they still create 100,000's of jobs from the Cargo ship unloaders to the retail stores that sell them. We are not in the present financial sitsuation for more unemployment nor New manufacturing plants let alone the cost of steel and operating cost associated with building tools in a country that cares about enviromental and work place conditions. Its gonna be along road ahead for the U.S and i hate to say it but we need the government to step in and do something about the influx of goods into this country. Im just afraid that we are so far in debt to China that they will not be willing to do this and risk the financial hardships along with other possible issues. Who knows? I think we are just screwed
Merkava_4
Banned
A couple of hypothetical questions:
What would companies do if there weren't a cheap Asian labor force available?
What would consumers do if cheap Asian produced products were not available?
I ask this question because throughout history, we haven't always had cheap foreign labor available. Back in 1955, if you wanted a Chinese produced tool, there were none.
this statement is so so true
chohdog
Active member
Google:
King Tony
Toptul
Teng Tools
Genius Tools
They're actually all pretty damn good with a great warranty.
King Tony
Toptul
Teng Tools
Genius Tools
They're actually all pretty damn good with a great warranty.
speed bump
Well-known member
China is nothing more than the US was 100 years ago if you just look at it from a manufacturing standpoint.
Personally I have a problem with the arguement that if we don't buy stuff overseas manufacturing will come back. Anybody here dealt with trying to buy power on a large scale? Montana generates over 4 times but they can't sell cheap industrial power to companies in Montana that use gigantic amounts of power because politicians said that isn't fair to people elsewhere. Also have you tried to permit an industrial plant? Chances are a bunch of overeducated morons will make sure it costs so much that it isn't worth doing and then 5 years later more idiots will make your manufacturing process illegal. Then have any of you had to try and raise capitol for a heavy industry, guess what in China they pass out capitol like lobbyists in Washington, in the US nobody wants to invest in something that isn't high growth (heavy industry), could be gone in 5 years, and has huge capitol costs.
Personally I have a problem with the arguement that if we don't buy stuff overseas manufacturing will come back. Anybody here dealt with trying to buy power on a large scale? Montana generates over 4 times but they can't sell cheap industrial power to companies in Montana that use gigantic amounts of power because politicians said that isn't fair to people elsewhere. Also have you tried to permit an industrial plant? Chances are a bunch of overeducated morons will make sure it costs so much that it isn't worth doing and then 5 years later more idiots will make your manufacturing process illegal. Then have any of you had to try and raise capitol for a heavy industry, guess what in China they pass out capitol like lobbyists in Washington, in the US nobody wants to invest in something that isn't high growth (heavy industry), could be gone in 5 years, and has huge capitol costs.
Lump
Well-known member
Make no mistake, China has its own problems. For example, one advantage they have over US manufacturers is that they can still dump industrial toxins and chemical byproducts into their creeks and rivers, which is a cheap way to do business. Right now they are willing to ruin their environment, and to allow their people to drink contaminated water, etc. And they pay their people pennies per hour. But China can no longer keep its people ignorant. More and more Chinese are learning what the rest of the world is like, and as their standard of living rises, and as they learn more, they will demand clean water and air, and fair wages. Remember when "Made in Japan" meant poor quality? I do. But today Japanese workers are paid as well as US workers, and their products are much better today. China will follow suit, and then other third world countries will become more competitive. Our job must be to keep America strong. We must innovate, invent, and produce. And we must have an educated workforce which is productive, and competitive. I think Americans will meet this challenge and prevail.
Lump
Well-known member
About dumping chemicals and ruining the Chinese environment…the USA used to do the same thing! For example, we once had lots of great chrome-plating shops in town, but our creeks in those areas were devoid of any life forms. When I was a kid, you NEVER saw a Canadian goose or a deer in my part of Ohio. Pollution and chemicals were very hard on wildlife back then. My dad and I were avid outdoorsmen, yet we NEVER saw those creatures in the 60's or early 70's. Now we have strong environmental laws, which are expensive and hard on our industry. But today deer are everywhere, to the point of being constant road-hazards. And wild geese swarm like rats-with-wings. Eagles have recovered from the endangered list, hawks, foxes, wolves, moose, elk, and even bison are coming back. If you recall, everyone knew "back in the day" that you dared not eat fish from rivers (only carp and other "rough" fish could live there anyway). And no one fished in polluted Lake Erie...it was unheard of. Hell, the Cuyahoga River actually caught on fire once!! So, do we want to go back to that? No, of course not. But China is dumping toxic waste on land and in water at an alarming rate. Yet even in China environmentalists are making headway, and trying to force change. Someday when China has cleaned up its act, and is paying its workers fair wages (like Japan eventually did), then some other 3rd world country will begin competing for industrial jobs. I am a fiercely loyal American, and I buy USA-made when I can. But today we must face the fact that this is a world economy, and we cannot just lock all our borders and prosper. That won't work anymore.
Lump
Well-known member
My apologies, guys. I just realized that this is off topic. I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I am simply a loyal US citizen who is very worried about my country, and what my grandchildren will inherit. I have traveled overseas, and seen industry there, and compared it with our own. I have testified before Ohio state congressional committees on automotive topics, and met with US congressmen on related business subjects. This experience has left me with some strong opinions, but I promise in the future to try and keep them to myself. 
Let's talk about old US-made tools! That makes me happier anyway. 
I am simply a loyal US citizen who is very worried about my country, and what my grandchildren will inherit. I have traveled overseas, and seen industry there, and compared it with our own. I have testified before Ohio state congressional committees on automotive topics, and met with US congressmen on related business subjects. This experience has left me with some strong opinions, but I promise in the future to try and keep them to myself. Let's talk about old US-made tools! That makes me happier anyway. arkangel06
Banned
mkirkpatrick
Well-known member
in the 50's You couldn't get a Chinese product they where produced in Japan,(remember that made in Japan in the 50's and 50's pretty much met that it was ****) If you remember the 90's it was the Japanese that were buying property and anything else. The nay sayers said that we would be owned by Japan, now it's China, nothing has changed just the country.
Lump
Well-known member
Exactly right!
OP
MarcSeattle
Well-known member
That would be better, I think. So far I've heard a couple of people say they thought Gearwrench had a couple of good tools. Interesting that nobody has put in a good word for Top Tul.
OP
MarcSeattle
Well-known member
How about the Blue-Point tools that are made in Taiwan? For example, I'm looking at an external torx socket set. Price seems reasonable. Would you guys consider that a quality Chinese tool?
No, its from Taiwan not china
OP
MarcSeattle
Well-known member
When I did the original post I meant both Taiwan and the PRC, since Taiwan is still politically part of China.