A Rant About Builders

[Mudbone]

This probably won't solve anything but it might make me feel better.

So after six years of having my attached garage filled with stuff that I could never find I decided to clean it out, finish the inside, and start using it for its intended purpose.

I really did have visions of parking two cars in there.
And here it is:

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Looks good right. With the cars in there as shown there is enough room to fully open any of the doors on each one. Even the rear passenger door on the Accord clears the bumpout for my fireplace.

Well not so fast. In order to get them in there this way, I had to pull them in with the side mirrors clearing the door frame by about an inch. Not really something I want to have to pull off twice every day. Or have my wife attempt if you want to know the real issue. If we park them closer then the driver of the right side car has trouble getting out. The right hand car could be backed in, but again not really something I want the wife trying to pull off.

And of course, with them in there this way, there is no room for anything at all down either side.

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And not much room in the front either.

View media item 22533
If I put a workbench on the back wall, I would have to back out one or both cars to actually use it. Just for the record, the garage measures 21'10" by 21'11" inside with a 16 foot door.

RANT ON

How EFFING hard is it for a builder to build a decent sized garage?!

This is a two car garage? Seriously? And a 16 foot door? An 8 foot door for a single car is a squeeze. This is basically two 8 foot doors with no room in between.

My dad's house was built in 1970. He doesn't use the attached garage as a work space and stores very little in there other than two cars. I don't know the measuements but you can park two caddies in there with no problems. And I mean old caddies, big pimp De Villes from the 70s. It has got to be at least 26 feet wide with with a 20 foot door.

My house was built around 2000, (I am not the original owner), and I get this ****? How much would it have cost to make my garage wider? Three to four hundred bucks? Even if it was 24 feet wide with a 18 foot door, at least I could get the cars in and out comfortably.

Here is the real kicker, I am a real estate broker so I get to see a lot of houses including new construction. A lot of new houses have garages that are even smaller than mine! I am seeing a lot of 21x20s or 20x20s. And that is the outside measurements. WTH, are we all supposed to drive Smart Cars now? (Although, I would drive a Abarth Fiat if it came with that hot Italian chick. :hitit

And another thing! Notice how the side and rear walls are set on a mud sill that is directly on the slab. Notice that the foundation wall of the house is about three courses of brick higher than the slab?

How damn hard would it have been to run three courses, two bricks wide around the other three sides and set the wall on top of that? Then I could hose out the garage without getting walls wet. What would that have cost? Maybe $100, $150? At least Ridebutter's builder got that part RIGHT.

I see Code Enforcement officers giving builders a hard time over the dumbest stuff sometimes and yet this garbage is perfectly ok.

RANT OFF

I guess I need to get back to deciding how to use my garage. It sure isn't going to be by parking two cars in it.

BTW, feel free to come up to the pulpit and testify how your builder screwed up your garage. Maybe I will feel better with some company.

 

[Bib Overalls]

We all feel your pain.

 

[Mudbone]

We all feel your pain.

Bib your sig says it all.

 

[thammel]

I understand. My 2000 built house has an attached garage that is smaller than yours! It's 20 x 20 with two 8x7 doors. This is why I added a 32x28x12 garage. 20x20 is just way too small.

Tom

 

[padstack]

To play devil's advocate...

Is it the builder's fault that a person bought a house with a small garage? I would put the blame more on uninformed buyers. If the market demanded 30x30' garages, they would be out there. The builder is only providing what someone asked him for.

 

[sxk122]

I like my 1956 home..... full 480 sqf with really wide door (18' I believe)
http://sphotos-b.**.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/321673_687145034125_921192975_n.jpg

Plus, having one car being mini helps, lol

 

[el Pedro]

I would be blaming the draftsman or architect. The builder only builds what is given to them usually. The average home in Australia is a garage around 19' x 19' many new home are actually changing that to 18' x 19'!!

 

[pendragon1998]

We're doing good to get one of our two 4runners into our "two car garage".

 

[ZRX61]

How ya think I felt at my old place? Garage was 20x50 & I could *just* squeeze my S10 & my ZRX1100 in there


ok, so the rest of the space was all tools, but still....

 

[Olyar15]

IMO, houses are designed for women, since they are often the ones who influence the final decision on which house to buy. The emphasis is placed on the kitchen and bathrooms, and basically the rest of the house. Especially in the city, house size is maximized for a lot, and the garage is an afterthought. The smallest, cheapest structure that the builder can get away with is usually all that is done. After all, any money put into building a better garage is money that isn't going into fancy fixtures, crown moulding, and all the other stuff that impresses the typical woman. I went through this exact thing when I bought my previous house, and when I moved it was impossible to find a decent garage so I ended up having to have my house custom built.

 

[1948]

im not really seeing the issue..... but thats just me.

 

[egnorant]

If I had a nickle for every time I saw a stupid homebuilding decision, I would be rich.

Garage doors have long been on my list, but my recent rant is doorbells!
If you buy a newly built ($350,000) house and the doorbell button has fallen apart before the lawn is settled in, you tend to wonder about the quality of work in this new house. I deliver pizza on weekends and see this a lot!

Bruce

 

[TinKnocker]

Put those silly cars outside and youll have room.

 

[Aussie damo]

To play devil's advocate...

Is it the builder's fault that a person bought a house with a small garage? I would put the blame more on uninformed buyers. If the market demanded 30x30' garages, they would be out there. The builder is only providing what someone asked him for.

Well sail.
The person who the house was built for may not have needed a big garage.
I have a two car attached and I can not fit two cars in there. And it's bigger than my last 2car. My old place had to have front bummer touching real roller door for tilt door to close.

 

[Abj87]

I fit a silverado 2500 and a jetta through a 16 foot door. I don't see the issue.

 

[BWS]

I'm curious.....what calibre was the gun?

 

[darkk]

One word, ADDITION!!!!

 

[logical]

Sure, we all know 28 x 28 would be so much nicer but a few things cause builders to continue the madness. 1) people buy the houses and don't notice for 6 years that the garage is small, if ever. 2) Unless the extra size can be translated into a higher selling price then the extra size is just taking money out of the builder's pocket.

I'm sure your wife thinks the closets are too small but as long as it doesn't cause you to walk away from buying it won't change.

I do agree it is bad design. I built my own house (I played general contractor) about 6 years ago. I did an 18 foot door and an 8 footer into 1100 sq ft of L-shaped space. No spec house builder would have done that in a house that only has 2700 sq ft living space. But I built it to own, not to sell. I lived in a few spec houses before this place. A 16 ft wide door (and equally as bad only 7 ft high) is rediculous especially when my last garage was barely 19 ft wide. I basically had to hug the wall with my truck parked on the right and taking a passenger meant they got in or out only with the truck still in the driveway. Seriously though...I've seen and lived with much worse 2 car garages and yours really isn't all that bad.....try playing around with parking the cars at different angles instead of straight in. The wife should be in the left spot so the mirror is easy to see and the only driver you have to count on to not open a door into the other car is you.

 

[bczygan]

That is a very nice, and sizable, 1 1/2 car garage. I would love to have it instead of my too small 1 car.
Seriously. As an architectural designer and builder and real estate salesman, garage spaces come in all sizes and flavors from carports sized for a motorbike to 20,000 SF behemoths for a fleet of show cars. buy or build what you need or want. One size does not fit all. There is no "standard" car or garage. Buyers should check out the size of a garage and compare with their existing or proposed fleet. Garage door height as well as width can be a limiting factor. I know people who have to keep tires partially deflated to get in and out.
This IS an opportunity to adjust things to match your needs and desires. Either adjust the cars to fit the space or the space to fit the cars. Nothing is fixed or set in concrete. blow out a wall or two. Raise a roof or add a bay or a building. Lots of ideas here on GJ.

 

[Gary S]

A skilled driver can easily drive the car slightly at an angle going through the door so the mirrors don't hit the sides of the door frame, and still get the car on the correct spot inside when stopping. Time to start practicing your parking a bit.

 

[nehog]

WTF? I have 16 ft doors on my building, and pull in wide (we're talking Hummer H1s, about the width of a UPS truck) in and out all the time. I've never felt that it was too small (it is tight, but I'm a good enough driver that I can do it easily.)

 

[Jim_No_Garage]

My wife has been pulling a minivan into the left garage door for 15 years. With a Dodge Grand Caravan the clearance is about 1.5 inches on each side of the mirrors. There is a little white paint on the tips of the mirrors from "grazes". I have personally removed 2 mirrors from vehicles while backing out of the garage - so I'm the mirror killer in my household.

I understand about the door opening issue but with the minivan the rear doors slide open so the clearance issue is diminished. I have to load/unload passengers from my car while the car is outside of the garage due to clearance issues.

Like they said - 20 x 20 makes agood room to pile 400 square feet of junk. The cars would just live outside.

Jim

 

[Mudbone]

To play devil's advocate...

Is it the builder's fault that a person bought a house with a small garage? I would put the blame more on uninformed buyers. If the market demanded 30x30' garages, they would be out there. The builder is only providing what someone asked him for.

Yes it is the builders fault. When you buy a new house these days you don't get a choice. You either buy an already built spec house or you go into a subdivision and pick from from one of the builders canned plans. Asking for modifications to those plans is an excuse for the builder to jack up the price way beyond the actual cost of making the modifications. I had a client once that asked for a garage to be increased by about 150 sqft. This modification would not have required major changes to the house itself, only lengthing the garage. The price, 15K. $100 a sqft for empty non-HVAC space.

As for it being my fault for buying it, I didn't have a choice. The majority of the houses on the market in my price range have the same size garage or smaller. I couldn't afford new construction or a custom house. The only option would be a needle in a haystack search for a house that had a bigger garage build to order. Garage size, in terms of numbers of cars but not sqft, is tied to the price point of a house. While the sqftage of a house affects its price the actual sqftage of the garage does not as long as it has the expected number of car spaces. So the builders can make the garages smaller and smaller and sell the house for the same price as long as it is advertised to hold the same numberr cars. The savings goes in their pocket. Even worse is for house designs where the garage is integrated into the footprint instead of being built on the side. By squeezing down the garage size that space becomes square footage of the house. Of course this drives up the price of the house but doesn't increase the building costs in a realitive amount.

 

[Polski-Chevy]

[GALLERY=media, 22533][/GALLERY][/QUOTE]

I would be more concerned with upgrading your breaker box for the time being.

I live in a neighborhood built in the mid 1960s, a lot of bigger garages because the homeowners built them to suit their needs.

 

[Stuart in MN]

It looks pretty roomy to me, I don't see the problem.

 

[Cryptic1911]

There aren't many people who park in their garages anymore.. they are generally a store-all for years worth of **** that people will never use. That's why garages are tiny, and almost noone gives a ****. They keep their $300 worth of junk taking up the whole garage, and park their $50k truck outside in the driveway

 

[Falcon67]

It looks pretty roomy to me, I don't see the problem.

X2 on the roomy. I fold in the driver's mirror on the F150 and pass the door trim on the left side by less than 6" to leave room on the other side for the Fiesta. It has plenty of space, which is good for getting the grandkid(s) out without whacking the doors. Our house garage is big as they go, 21 1/2 wide by 22 deep. The nose of the truck clears the wall by 18", the left fender clears the storage rack by maybe 12" and the *** end just clears the door. Our daughter's house is new going on 6 years old - they can get the big Dodge Citadel UMB (Urban Mommy Battle-wagon) in there but not the husband's extend cab Ford work truck.

 

[J Persons]

When I lived in California, the house had a 20' door, it was easy to get in and out, but was not deep enough to fit my 2006 F 150 extended cab. The washer/dryer, water heater and furnace were also in there. I built my FFR Cobra in that garage, so I guess it was good for something.

 

[Kevin54]

I would be more concerned with upgrading your breaker box for the time being.

I live in a neighborhood built in the mid 1960s, a lot of bigger garages because the homeowners built them to suit their needs.

Back in the 60's garages were built not for the homeowners needs but were built to house larger cars. Even the midsize cars, say for instance a Ford Fairlane, although smaller than other land yachts, is still quite big by todays standards. As car started getting smaller, so did garages. Contractors would downsize a garage to add more square footage of living space. Some of that garage space was given up for family rooms which people started to want. In my time growing up, a standard two car garage was 24' x 24'. The two car garage today is something like 21' x 21'. Some places may even go to 20' for a two car. I also see a lot of houses listing the garage as a 1 1/2 car. Years ago there never was a 1 1/2 car garage. It was either a one car or two car.

Today, cars are a little larger than they were 10 or 20 years ago, but the garages have not went back up in size. A few years back, a two car family may have need driving a Toyota Corolla and a Ford Ranger. That same family today may be driving and Envoy and a fullsize Silverado. No room in the garage

 

[JimVonBaden]

I understand. My 2000 built house has an attached garage that is smaller than yours! It's 20 x 20 with two 8x7 doors. This is why I added a 32x28x12 garage. 20x20 is just way too small.

Tom

My 2011 built house is a 20X20 with one 16' door. No way I am ever getting two cars in it!

Jim

 

[GarageEnvy]

As a broker I'm surprised the answer isn't obvious to you. Unless you're doing a custom home, you're probably looking at maxing out the value of the product (house). Most homes have gravitated toward a "garage in front" style with rear/side entry to a laundry room. So you're a developer with land and you pay the engineer to map your subdivision. That engineer is going to do everything in his power to get the most lots per acre. A wider garage equals a wider lot in many cases. That 1 or 2 feet adds up to a lost lot or two down the road.

Garages are typically valued on their utility for their intended use. A couple extra feet does not allow an additional car. Most appraisers and buyers aren't going to be giving it any extra value. A 20'x21' garage is pretty standard in my area. The builder will get more value out of building more into the living area.

Preferences do change. Separate family rooms, living rooms and dining rooms were the norm. So were large bedrooms. Now a "great room" is the norm and giant kitchens and bathrooms take precedence over bedroom space. We, here on GJ are niche fanatics over garage space and do not represent the market. Architects and draft people draw what the developer tells them to. The developer tells them to draw what the market is asking for.

 

[JMURiz]

Doesn't seem small to me...seems plenty roomy. Mine is 24dx22w exterior dimension (so take off a foot from the width and 6" from the depth and I think it's huge. Anyone that's seen how tight my driveway entry is knows that's the biggest hurdle.

Build a custom work bench with roll-away storage underneath and you should be golden.
Get creative with storage and it'll seem plenty big.

I currently have 3 cars and a motorcycle in mine, along with a workbench and small fridge. I used to have 2 more motorcycles in there, but I sold them off.

 

[Mudbone]

Garages are typically valued on their utility for their intended use.

We, here on GJ are niche fanatics over garage space and do not represent the market.

Some of you guys are missing the point. This is not about garage fanatics. This is exactly about the intended use. It's a two car garage. It's advertized use is to park two cars. I don't think a Merc Sable and an Accord are overly large vehicles.

So let's imagine a two car family with my same cars, with no tools, no need for a work bench, etc. Nothing in the garage but the cars. With my size garage and door, sooner or later they are going to scratch a mirror, tear up the trim on the garage door, or bang sheet metal trying to get in and out of the cars. It's too tight. There is no room for error. You would have to be an F1 driver to hit the exact mark day after day. And people don't try. As has been pointed out, very few people with two car garages actually park two cars it. If any other part of the house worked this way, buyers would be pissed. Imagine if you had to load your dishwasher in the exact same perfect way every time or your dishes would get broken.

I have occasionaly seen the 1 1/2 car garage description in our area. Once I had a husband and wife client looking at a house with a garage described that way. The wife asked, "What's a half of a car?" The husband replyed, "It's a two car garage that won't fit two cars."

 

[holland_patrick]

look at the bright side that builder did you a favor... by not putting in the three rows of bring you can pour a few more feet of garage space and bump out the walls... and add those bricks if you really want to.

 

[hh76]

We, here on GJ are niche fanatics over garage space and do not represent the market. Architects and draft people draw what the developer tells them to. The developer tells them to draw what the market is asking for.

Something we should all keep in mind, we are not the norm when it comes to valuing garage space. I know a lot of people who would sacrifice garage room for living space without thinking twice about it.

I don't know for sure, but wouldn't an 18ft garage door add quite a bit to cost due to the larger header required, and cost of bigger door? Probably something the builder was not willing to shell out for.

 

[aka Larry]

My 2011 built house is a 20X20 with one 16' door. No way I am ever getting two cars in it!

Jim

Ditto, but mine is only 20x19!

Since we build my new 40'x40 shop in the backyard, my wifes wants the attached garage back. Right now my Mustang stays in there, but I don't think I trust her to try and drive up beside it and not hit the wall or my waxer car.

I get why they didn't make it much wider, but my lot is really long so making it 3 feet deeper would have been very easy.

FWIW, our house was a 'spec' house so we didn't get to design it.

 

[maddawg308]

When I get my next house, if the garage is too small, I'm going all out and building a 3-bay with a loft, and one of the bays will have a 10-foot high door to fit in my deuce-and-a-half, and a pit for working on the cars without need of a lift.

 

[WWIIjeep]

As a broker I'm surprised the answer isn't obvious to you. Unless you're doing a custom home, you're probably looking at maxing out the value of the product (house). Most homes have gravitated toward a "garage in front" style with rear/side entry to a laundry room. So you're a developer with land and you pay the engineer to map your subdivision. That engineer is going to do everything in his power to get the most lots per acre. A wider garage equals a wider lot in many cases. That 1 or 2 feet adds up to a lost lot or two down the road.

Garages are typically valued on their utility for their intended use. A couple extra feet does not allow an additional car. Most appraisers and buyers aren't going to be giving it any extra value. A 20'x21' garage is pretty standard in my area. The builder will get more value out of building more into the living area.

Preferences do change. Separate family rooms, living rooms and dining rooms were the norm. So were large bedrooms. Now a "great room" is the norm and giant kitchens and bathrooms take precedence over bedroom space. We, here on GJ are niche fanatics over garage space and do not represent the market. Architects and draft people draw what the developer tells them to. The developer tells them to draw what the market is asking for.

^^^^

Well said.

Spec homes aren't going to have large garages. They never have, and they never will, except in some upscale developments where a so-called 3-car garage is part of the spec (and I've seen so-called 3-car garages that hardly qualify as such, unless the 3rd car is a golf cart--and it often is).

If I were to complain about garages, I'd complain about the depth and door height not being sufficient, but I'm one of the minority who drives a full-sized 4x4 pickup exclusively (so the garage I built myself has an 8-1/2' high door instead of 7' high, and is 24' deep instead of 20' or 21'.).

The following is from an architectural textbook still used by many architects:

Typical Garage Sizes

Small Single: 11'W x 19'D, 7' or 8'W door.
Large Single: 13'W x 25'D, 8' or 9'W door.
Full Single: 16'W x 25'D, 9' door (when extra storage space is desired).
Small Double: 20'W x 20'D, 16'W door.
Full Double: 25'W x 25'D, 18'W door.

Don't expect things to change. The trend in cars is toward smaller, not larger. The average homeowner hardly has any tools, let alone a workshop.

Further, in metropolitan areas--the trend is "Smart Growth" which is building smaller homes on smaller lots, combined with a smaller than average garage, many times only a small single. Such homes aren't just the developer wanting the most bang for the buck; they're designed around public transportation, and shank's mare (walking) instead of driving. Blame the urban planners, blame Al Gore, blame whoever you want, but the architects and builders are just doing what they've been told to do.

 

[JimVonBaden]

Doesn't seem small to me...seems plenty roomy. Mine is 24dx22w exterior dimension (so take off a foot from the width and 6" from the depth and I think it's huge. Anyone that's seen how tight my driveway entry is knows that's the biggest hurdle.

Mine too:

The driveway to the back where the garage is.

The pad in front of the garage.

The inside of the garage:

Jim

PS There is a new paver driveway in front, and patio in back. See my sigline for details on how this helped my parking/driveway situation.

 

[Polski-Chevy]

Back in the 60's garages were built not for the homeowners needs but were built to house larger cars. Even the midsize cars, say for instance a Ford Fairlane, although smaller than other land yachts, is still quite big by todays standards. As car started getting smaller, so did garages. Contractors would downsize a garage to add more square footage of living space. Some of that garage space was given up for family rooms which people started to want. In my time growing up, a standard two car garage was 24' x 24'. The two car garage today is something like 21' x 21'. Some places may even go to 20' for a two car. I also see a lot of houses listing the garage as a 1 1/2 car. Years ago there never was a 1 1/2 car garage. It was either a one car or two car.

Today, cars are a little larger than they were 10 or 20 years ago, but the garages have not went back up in size. A few years back, a two car family may have need driving a Toyota Corolla and a Ford Ranger. That same family today may be driving and Envoy and a fullsize Silverado. No room in the garage

The OP was comparing his father's garage from the 70s to his home, and how his dad can fit those larger caddys with no issue.

Didn't the truck and SUV market explode over 20 years ago? So wouldn't a house built just a decade ago be built to suit those bigger vehicles?

Market demands should dictate what is produced.

I think that is the point Mudbone is trying to make?