A Shed Downunder.

[1/2 Cup]

All, another project I have been working on is to add yet another split system to compliment, provide some redundancy and flexibility to our overall HVAC requirements. Our heating is predominately natural gas which can be supplemented by the splits.

Due for installation in a few weeks time i have taken the opportunity over the last few days to prewire the supply and control cabling in readiness, so we are all good to go.

View media item 79020
The top arrow pointing to the new isolator and Outdoor unit location which is in an ideal spot as is does not get the afternoon sun.

The bottom arrow is where the new Solar Hot Water storage /electric boost tank will be located in time so I am making the necessary electrical preparations for that as well.

 

[BBChevro]

Funny that you mentioned the pending solar hot water system, we've had conversations on that subject on this thread before...
I was thinking about those conversations just before Xmas - our 10 year old solar HWS sprung a leak in one of the panels and the recommendation was to replace the other one as well (the tank was still in good order).

We deliberated for a couple of days as to what we wanted long term and came to the conclusion that we didn't want to have to fork out thousands of dollars every few years and we were never very keen on having stuff on our roof (that's another story).

We ended up getting a "normal" electric HWS - although we did spend the extra few bucks to get one that is "solar ready" (we can add to it later).

I'm guessing that you are planning a similar style of "split system" solar?


The stools look useful - I have milk crates.

 

[HOTFR8]

Yes what type of SHWS ? Given you know about mine.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Funny that you mentioned the pending solar hot water system, we've had conversations on that subject on this thread before...
I was thinking about those conversations just before Xmas - our 10 year old solar HWS sprung a leak in one of the panels and the recommendation was to replace the other one as well (the tank was still in good order).

We deliberated for a couple of days as to what we wanted long term and came to the conclusion that we didn't want to have to fork out thousands of dollars every few years and we were never very keen on having stuff on our roof (that's another story).

We ended up getting a "normal" electric HWS - although we did spend the extra few bucks to get one that is "solar ready" (we can add to it later).

I'm guessing that you are planning a similar style of "split system" solar?


The stools look useful - I have milk crates.

The stools are fantastic in the shed..

Yes what type of SHWS ? Given you know about mine.

Mark and HOTFR8

I am still evaluating our best options but in principle it will be an Electrically Boosted Split Solar HWS unit like this below.

https://www.solahart.com.au/products/split-system/streamline-mcs07v-series/413mcs07v/

The rational behind my decision is based on the following rational:

• 
  
  . Roof loading, our roof structure and framing precludes putting a tank on the roof.
  . Street aesthetics. ( panels only on the roof )
  . Our existing mains pressure HWS is in the roof space which is not ideal for replacement.
  . The existing HWS is now 13 years old.
  . Removing the Storage tank to the outside will mitigate risk, make replacement and service a breeze.
  . The electric boost over gas will let us capitalise on our Off Peak Tariffs 24/7 that we have ( should they be needed ).
  . Warranty, unfortunately they don't last forever.
  . Solar Credits
  . Reviews and recommendations from mates in the trade.
  . Naturally taking the issues with yours HOTFR8.
  

At this point in time I am waiting on a quote but I am preparing for it electrically now as it integrates well into our existing circuitry.

Feel free to add more if I have missed any thing..

Thanks guys and stay cool..

 

[Lyndon]

Steve

I'll follow this subject (SHWS) with interest, because I think our next one (can't be too far away ) will have to be something similar....

I have an additional problem, that the existing Off Peak HWS is in the furthest corner of the house from the ensuite in our bedroom, so we have a small hot water booster outside the ensuite that provides the water to there, but that was installed in the days when electricity was cheap, and water wasn't....

So now I might run a HW line from the heated tank to the ensuite (about 40 metres) to a small booster just outside (otherwise we could probably time the hot water turning up at the tap with a calender).

Lyndon
Following on!

 

[HOTFR8]

I can add mine is working well once we changed the 12 volt solar control back to a mechanical float control.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Lyndon, that's a fair run for a HW line. I have not had much to do with boosters at all.

Are there any other booster options that you have explored?

We are pretty fortunate that the HWS is fairly central and the longest run at the new tank position would only be 20 mt tops to the laundry. Little modification will be required for the plumbing other than to tidy up in the roof space.

I will keep you updated on what we eventually do..

Stay cool..

 

[1/2 Cup]

I can add mine is working well once we changed the 12 volt solar control back to a mechanical float control.

HOTFR8, that's great.

With the split units there is none of that control gear on the roof..

Stay cool..

 

[HOTFR8]

Oh I did read split unit. Will be interesting to see how it works for you. Power is off to mine since we went summer daylight saving time. Massive saving in power. I expect it to boil today.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Oh I did read split unit. Will be interesting to see how it works for you. Power is off to mine since we went summer daylight saving time. Massive saving in power. I expect it to boil today.

HOTFR8, yes you did read split unit, not to be confused with an air conditioner.

A Split Solar HWS means that there is no storage / booster tank on the roof as such only the panels, this will be mounted at ground level on the eastern side of the home..

The link gives you an basic understanding how it works..

It is our biggest electrical load here, even at an Off Peak Tariff 24/7

Cheers

 

[gazza]

I will also be following this with interest. Our 400 lt electric peak/offpeak hot water system is on its last legs and starting to leak, it is 21 years old though.
Our off peak electricity usage is twice our peak load so Im hoping to get enough heat during the day to reduce our off peak use.

 

[1/2 Cup]

I will also be following this with interest. Our 400 lt electric peak/offpeak hot water system is on its last legs and starting to leak, it is 21 years old though.
Our off peak electricity usage is twice our peak load so Im hoping to get enough heat during the day to reduce our off peak use.

Gazza, 21 years that's a pretty good effort.

Still it pays to plan moving forward.

Our existing unit is only 315 lt which copes very well with our demand.

Hot Water be that Off Peak or Peak at Off Peak rates Hot Water are our last big energy costs, very much like yours.
Crunching the numbers since we installed the 6 kw of Solar Panels 3 years ago now our energy bills have been cut by 2/3 s ( price rises taken into account )
With the Solar HWS we will slash a considerable amount off our Energy costs.

I will keep you updated..

 

[BBChevro]

Hey 1/2, that's a similar set-up to what ours can be expanded to, except that where yours uses the normal solar hot water panels - ours uses heat transfer tubes (kind of like a scaled down pool heater)...

http://www.thermann.com.au/products/evacuated-tube-solar-electric-boosted


Our roof structure is OK, but the actual roof is Decrobond (pressed tin tiles that just about bend when you look at them, let alone walk on them ), so I was keen to get the tank on the ground.

It is a much longer run to the upstairs bathroom now, but right next to the downstairs bathroom and the laundry (basically the reverse order of the old solar system) - the kitchen is still about in the middle.


We might not ever get around to adding the solar part of the system, but at least the option is there if we discover that we've made a huge blunder (going from solar to electric). It will be interesting to see how our next power bill pans out.

We are planning to get a solar electricity set-up (with the PV panels on the iron patio roof, not the Decrobond house roof) to help offset the extra electricity costs.

 

[HOTFR8]

Our original unit was a tanked roof system replaced with the system we have now also a roof tanked unit. This place simply was not designed to have a split system like you plan so it will be interesting to follow how much power you save.

Our killer (power bill $$$) is heat and hot water. In Summer we can pretty well stand alone for power with the heating not required and the power off to the hot water. So on that note 1/2 it will be interesting to see how your new system works.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Hey 1/2, that's a similar set-up to what ours can be expanded to, except that where yours uses the normal solar hot water panels - ours uses heat transfer tubes (kind of like a scaled down pool heater)...

http://www.thermann.com.au/products/evacuated-tube-solar-electric-boosted


Our roof structure is OK, but the actual roof is Decrobond (pressed tin tiles that just about bend when you look at them, let alone walk on them ), so I was keen to get the tank on the ground.

It is a much longer run to the upstairs bathroom now, but right next to the downstairs bathroom and the laundry (basically the reverse order of the old solar system) - the kitchen is still about in the middle.


We might not ever get around to adding the solar part of the system, but at least the option is there if we discover that we've made a huge blunder (going from solar to electric). It will be interesting to see how our next power bill pans out.

We are planning to get a solar electricity set-up (with the PV panels on the iron patio roof, not the Decrobond house roof) to help offset the extra electricity costs.

Mark. Evacuated tube panel will be a consideration for us here as well.

Your storage tank installation looks great and will be much the same as mine one day.

That is one thing I have noted with any solar fixtures be that for power or hot water on some of the older roofs is there quite often little or no consideration to any future roofing repairs that may be required down the track.

You will not regret going solar, it has been a godsend for us.

Our original unit was a tanked roof system replaced with the system we have now also a roof tanked unit. This place simply was not designed to have a split system like you plan so it will be interesting to follow how much power you save.

Our killer (power bill $$$) is heat and hot water. In Summer we can pretty well stand alone for power with the heating not required and the power off to the hot water. So on that note 1/2 it will be interesting to see how your new system works.

HOTFR8 Like you, ultimately the driver for the decision we make today is energy efficiency and the long term cost reduction. Here in our part of the world we are ideally placed to take advantage of all things Solar..

Thank you for your visits and have a top day..

 

[1/2 Cup]

All, with all the hot weather we are having of late work has come to a stand still on the ugly area between the Shed and Garden Shed.

View media item 76799
I did mange to pick up the additional 3/4 crushed blue stone and pavers for the job the other day. It will be a slow process to finish but I am determined to get there bit at a time..

View media item 79022
The weather looks like staying around the 100 F mark again today in our neck of the woods.

Have a top day and thank you for your visit..

 

[oldironfarmer]

Solar systems look interesting. I guess our electricity is too cheap here to warrant the installation cost.

I had a question about your weather. How much does it cool off overnight when you're pushing 40C during the day? our worst weather is 40C only cooling to 30C at night.

 

[drivesitfar]

1/2: i don't have a clue about all the SOLAR TALK, but i'm happy you know how so when i do one day try to install a system i'll know who to email or talk to.

good luck

also great to see you are working out in the yard and posting up all these big projects and you must be feeling better, but prayers still on their way and wishing you the best.

you might need some over head storage some day and here's what i built out of some spare Unistrut and nuts and bolts (free material is always nice isn't it?). i've got to cut some 1.125 plywood for the shelving and these won't hold a ton, but it will maybe keep some things off the floor or benches to help my FSD.

i couldn't set up my flat files to close off one end or finish loading up my huge Lyon rotobin that has become a catch all so maybe Andy can change the wording in his sig line next year as i'm getting organized.

cheers

 

[1/2 Cup]

Andy, our energy costs are going through the roof therefore investment in alternatives is a viable option out here.

Take yesterdays maximum of 41 C and it is now 5.30 am the morning after and the temperature is now a quite pleasant 20 C, there are times that we can have consecutive days in and around the 40 C s and the over night temperatures remain well into the high 20 C s.
Our home is an older one that has 10 ft ceilings and is well insulated in the roof space so even on those extreem days and without air conditioning it remains very pleasant inside up until the very late afternoon where the A/C s get fired up.

I trust this helps.

 

[1/2 Cup]

1/2: i don't have a clue about all the SOLAR TALK, but i'm happy you know how so when i do one day try to install a system i'll know who to email or talk to.

good luck

also great to see you are working out in the yard and posting up all these big projects and you must be feeling better, but prayers still on their way and wishing you the best.

you might need some over head storage some day and here's what i built out of some spare Unistrut and nuts and bolts (free material is always nice isn't it?). i've got to cut some 1.125 plywood for the shelving and these won't hold a ton, but it will maybe keep some things off the floor or benches to help my FSD.

i couldn't set up my flat files to close off one end or finish loading up my huge Lyon rotobin that has become a catch all so maybe Andy can change the wording in his sig line next year as i'm getting organized.

cheers

drives, ask away when you need to talk alternative energy systems as many of GJ members from Australia have had quite a lot of experience either in owning, operating, installing or maintaining solar system for many years now.
Thank you for your prayers and thoughts they are certainly having an impact as I feel great at the moment and being careful not to over do things..

I luv your Unistrut overhead storage, well done.

It will certainly free up lots of FSD areas..

Great to see and I am sure you will feel better for it..

Here is my little bit of suspended storage above my bench for really light things.

View media item 56233

I think a PM to Andy would be in order

 

[oldironfarmer]

Cooling down overnight certainly make the heat of the day more bearable. Nobody had air conditioning in homes here until the 1970's, we used to sleep comfortably with a single whole house window fan drawing in cool night air.

My signature only quotes Drives' statement that he was not organized yet. Neither am I. But I don't really have an expectation of ever being organized like I'd like.

Drives: Solar power is best where you have sunshine

 

[1/2 Cup]

Cooling down overnight certainly make the heat of the day more bearable. Nobody had air conditioning in homes here until the 1970's, we used to sleep comfortably with a single whole house window fan drawing in cool night air.

My signature only quotes Drives' statement that he was not organized yet. Neither am I. But I don't really have an expectation of ever being organized like I'd like.

Drives: Solar power is best where you have sunshine

Andy, I can still remember those long hot days and nights without air conditioning when we were youngsters very vividly..

I guess we are all not organised as we would ultimately like to be, Drives is moving in the right direction and mine is what I would call a process of " Continual Improvement "

Have a good one..

 

[1/2 Cup]

All, over the last few weeks I have been checking out the tool shop new years sales and picked up a few goodies that I needed..

View media item 79080
Low lift aluminium jack ( my 40 year old one is buggered )
A couple of Whia screw drivers.
A new wheel for the bench grinder for HSS bits and chisel sharpening.
MIG and TIG magnetic torch holders.
Vise soft jaws.
1/4 drive 52 tooth Sidchrome ratchet.
Metric and Imperial in hex socket sets.
Metric and Imperial internal and external Torx sets.

That should keep me going for a bit..

 

[oldironfarmer]

Nice jack! It looks a lot like the 3,000# Harbor Freight aluminum jack.

I especially like the single front roller, works very nice. Rear casters are pretty small but jack is light, pumps up fast, and I'm using mine a lot.

I've never seen magnetic torch holders, got to look for them. Thanks for spending some of my money

 

[jon72vega]

All, over the last few weeks I have been checking out the tool shop new years sales and picked up a few goodies that I needed..

View media item 79080
Low lift aluminium jack ( my 40 year old one is buggered )
A couple of Whia screw drivers.
A new wheel for the bench grinder for HSS bits and chisel sharpening.
MIG and TIG magnetic torch holders.
Vise soft jaws.
1/4 drive 52 tooth Sidchrome ratchet.
Metric and Imperial in hex socket sets.
Metric and Imperial internal and external Torx sets.

That should keep me going for a bit..

Steve,
Merry Christmas to yourself!

 

[rmalkow2]

Nice selection of new tools. That's always fun adding a few necessary bits and pieces to the tool box. I say every 40 years or so a guy definitely deserves a new floor jack!

Bob

 

[dchance]

Steve Glad to see you up and working, don't over do it.

I am curious, since you have natural gas for your heating how would that fit in to heating you hot water.

For me it seems like our natural gas is cheaper than electricity so it is used in place of the electricity. In my case I do not have a natural gas line to my location so I am using propane instead to heat the water and supplement the electric heat in my house. For the last couple of years a 500 gallon propane tank will last a year.

Dwight

 

[Ralf99]

The cost of natural gas has more than doubled in many parts of Australia over the last few years. Despite the fact that Australia is one of the larger (if not largest) exporters of gas worldwide, there is a potential domestic shortage due to some questionable trade deals.
Ironically it would be cheaper to buy Australian natural gas after it has been exported to Japan, than it is to buy locally.

Our State Government also has imposed a moratorium on exploration for new gas reserves, and fracking is frowned upon, so gas prices are continuing to rise.
The largest coal fired power station in our state was decommissioned last year without any extra capacity added to the grid to replace its loss, so electricity prices are on the rise too.

As 1/2 Cup mentioned earlier, there are very real reasons to implement solar and wind alternatives.

 

[Bob Heine]

I recall reading an article about Australia's energy prices increasing as demand decreased. Maintaining the power grid costs the same whether customers use more or less energy. At some point the last house using electricity from the power company is going to pay a gigantic sum.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Nice jack! It looks a lot like the 3,000# Harbor Freight aluminum jack.

I especially like the single front roller, works very nice. Rear casters are pretty small but jack is light, pumps up fast, and I'm using mine a lot.

I've never seen magnetic torch holders, got to look for them. Thanks for spending some of my money

Andy, the jacks look like they came out of the same factory for sure. I am really happy with just how it performs and as you say is light, manoeuvres very well and pumps up real quick.


I have been meaning to get a set of those magnetic torch holders for a while now, the magnets are tough to move. Sure beats dropping torches..

I am happy to spend your money at any time, I will PM you my bank account details..

Steve,
Merry Christmas to yourself!

Jon, most definiately..

Nice selection of new tools. That's always fun adding a few necessary bits and pieces to the tool box. I say every 40 years or so a guy definitely deserves a new floor jack!

Bob

Bob, there is nothing like it and I found shopping for those odd tools that I need just so therapeutic.

I must do it more often.


.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Steve Glad to see you up and working, don't over do it.

I am curious, since you have natural gas for your heating how would that fit in to heating you hot water.

For me it seems like our natural gas is cheaper than electricity so it is used in place of the electricity. In my case I do not have a natural gas line to my location so I am using propane instead to heat the water and supplement the electric heat in my house. For the last couple of years a 500 gallon propane tank will last a year.

Dwight

Dwight, Mrs 1/2 Cup is keeping me well and truly under control. I am very mindful of just taking things very easy at the moment considering what I have been through. The steroids seem to have given me a extra boost even though I am on a diminishing dose which will end in a week or so..

We have natural gas ( street reticulation to the home ) for both heating and gas hot plate cooking, sure we could use it for the Hot Water as well however I am not all that keen to go with a gas boosted solar storage unit. Both gas and electricity prices are going through the roof out here.

The primary aim of the Electrically Boosted Solar Hot Water is to minimalize our energy costs for the most part using Solar and should we ever require an Electric Boost that is supplied at an Off Peak Tariff 24/7.
It will also diversify our reliability on one source of energy which has been another consideration of mine as well.

The cost of natural gas has more than doubled in many parts of Australia over the last few years. Despite the fact that Australia is one of the larger (if not largest) exporters of gas worldwide, there is a potential domestic shortage due to some questionable trade deals.
Ironically it would be cheaper to buy Australian natural gas after it has been exported to Japan, than it is to buy locally.

Our State Government also has imposed a moratorium on exploration for new gas reserves, and fracking is frowned upon, so gas prices are continuing to rise.
The largest coal fired power station in our state was decommissioned last year without any extra capacity added to the grid to replace its loss, so electricity prices are on the rise too.

As 1/2 Cup mentioned earlier, there are very real reasons to implement solar and wind alternatives.

I recall reading an article about Australia's energy prices increasing as demand decreased. Maintaining the power grid costs the same whether customers use more or less energy. At some point the last house using electricity from the power company is going to pay a gigantic sum.

Ralf99 and Bob, so true you could write volumes about our energy situation out here and without opening a political can of worms its abhorrent to say the least

 

[BBChevro]

Nice purchases there 1/2, I don't do anywhere near enough retail therapy - the only "tool related" buying I've done recently were a new pair of brushes for my Dremel.

I must admit that I was like a kid at Christmas when they arrived in the mail.

 

[bj383ss]

Nice tool gloat there Steve. I didn't even know they made Mig and Tig torch handles. Now I need one of those or maybe I can make one.

Bret

 

[1/2 Cup]

Nice purchases there 1/2, I don't do anywhere near enough retail therapy - the only "tool related" buying I've done recently were a new pair of brushes for my Dremel.

I must admit that I was like a kid at Christmas when they arrived in the mail.

Mark, this is my biggest splurge for a long time. I never buy for buying sake to sit in a tool box but purchase stuff I really need and can justify the cost.

Like yourself I too become that kid at Christmas all over again..

Nice tool gloat there Steve. I didn't even know they made Mig and Tig torch handles. Now I need one of those or maybe I can make one.

Bret

Bret, thank you. a bloke has to do it some times..

Here is the link:

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/MIG-TIG-Torch-Holders

Thank you for your visit and have a great day..

 

[Guster]

Putting in a split hot water heating system is something I would love to do. The evacuated phase change tube heating systems are very popular here and split supply tanks are becoming cheaper too. Electrical heat on demand heaters are not common here compared to gas ones and thinking of getting those as it will let me go high pressure too. Having LPG on tank would be nice for running a forge too. One day...

Nice tool score! I bought those exact same soft jaws from out Machineryhouse before Christmas.

I see it was 118F in Sydney yesterday! Crikey.

 

[oldironfarmer]

Andy
I am happy to spend your money at any time, I will PM you my bank account details..

Thank you!! Since I spent time in Nigeria, I was able to befriend a real Nigerian Prince. He would like you to help spend some of his money as well. As soon as I can get your account details I will pass it along and you should see the money flowing in any day now. I will consider it a favor to me but he especially is in danger of losing half his fortune to a prohibitive tax scheme and would rather give it away than have the government take it.

What a guy...

 

[1/2 Cup]

Putting in a split hot water heating system is something I would love to do. The evacuated phase change tube heating systems are very popular here and split supply tanks are becoming cheaper too. Electrical heat on demand heaters are not common here compared to gas ones and thinking of getting those as it will let me go high pressure too. Having LPG on tank would be nice for running a forge too. One day...

Nice tool score! I bought those exact same soft jaws from out Machineryhouse before Christmas.

I see it was 118F in Sydney yesterday! Crikey.

Guster, we see both gas and electric Solar Boosted storage tanks out here. Then there are heat pumps like these.

http://www.chromagen.com.au/retail/


I haven't really investigated them as yet..

Our HWS is a mains pressure system.

Are you on natural gas or do you rely on the propane?

yep that would be handy around here too

The soft jaws did come from Hare and Forbes as well..

That's hot, damned hot we only got to 35 C

 

[1/2 Cup]

Thank you!! Since I spent time in Nigeria, I was able to befriend a real Nigerian Prince. He would like you to help spend some of his money as well. As soon as I can get your account details I will pass it along and you should see the money flowing in any day now. I will consider it a favor to me but he especially is in danger of losing half his fortune to a prohibitive tax scheme and would rather give it away than have the government take it.

What a guy...

Andy, yep what a great guy that Nigerian Prince is he actually contacted me the other day..

I must say your intentions are very honourable, I tip my hat to you Sir..

 

[Guster]

Guster, we see both gas and electric Solar Boosted storage tanks out here. Then there are heat pumps like these.

http://www.chromagen.com.au/retail/


I haven't really investigated them as yet..

Our HWS is a mains pressure system.

Are you on natural gas or do you rely on the propane?

yep that would be handy around here too

The soft jaws did come from Hare and Forbes as well..

That's hot, damned hot we only got to 35 C

Heatpump HWS are still a novelty here and that comes with the additional cost but are due to become more mainstream as sales increase. Especially with so many houses fitted with heatpump air conditioners already and since most HWS are often centrally mounted which suits heating and cooling too. One of the draw backs of heatpump AC units are that they are usually installed on an outside facing wall to make it easier to mount the external unit.

Still love the idea of a ground well/source heatpump which is a very popular system in countries like the UK.

Our street is the only street that is not reticulated for gas in our area but we can have either natural gas or LPG supplied through tank rental. LPG would suit me as it has a slightly higher BTU rating compared to natural gas. Normal 12kg cylinders will do for my other needs in the mean time.


47.8C was apparently a new record high for Sydney. Must be heat pumping to compensate for the snow in California.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Heatpump HWS are still a novelty here and that comes with the additional cost but are due to become more mainstream as sales increase. Especially with so many houses fitted with heatpump air conditioners already and since most HWS are often centrally mounted which suits heating and cooling too. One of the draw backs of heatpump AC units are that they are usually installed on an outside facing wall to make it easier to mount the external unit.

Still love the idea of a ground well/source heatpump which is a very popular system in countries like the UK.

Our street is the only street that is not reticulated for gas in our area but we can have either natural gas or LPG supplied through tank rental. LPG would suit me as it has a slightly higher BTU rating compared to natural gas. Normal 12kg cylinders will do for my other needs in the mean time.


47.8C was apparently a new record high for Sydney. Must be heat pumping to compensate for the snow in California.

Guster, thank you for the information.

The Heat pump HWS units do attract Green Energy Subsidies and they aren't that pricy.

I do note that ground thermal energy is very popular in the States

LPG is expensive here and your right even though we have natural gas a 12 kg cylinder does all my needs in the shed.

Sydney copped it big time, that's real hot:shocking

:http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-...nues-after-near-record-breaking-temps/9310226

Lyndon, how's the weather up your way?

Have a good one, its a little milder here today..