AC Leaking Water Everywhere!

[W_A_Watson_II]

What brand/model of thermostat are you using for both Temp and Humidity control?

 

[JRC3]

What brand/model of thermostat are you using for both Temp and Humidity control?

Hmm, that makes you think. Isn't there a humidifier on the system?

 

[Bunk]

Platonic Solid, I just went through this exact same scenario as you.
My house is only 1.5 yrs old. I called the HVAC guy that installed the system in the home.
Symptoms were very poor cooling performance and the water leaking from around the evaporator coil.
An inspection showed the frozen coil just like yours.
It was very low on refrigerant and he found a leak in the copper line running from the house out to the condenser unit. Repaired line, filled up with refrigerant and all is well now.
They fixed for free to boot!

 

[dreasoner]

You would use the evap coil to lower the humidity. This is accomplished by running a colder coil to remove more moisture or latent load from the conditioned air. This can be done by running less superheat with the metering device and/or lowering blower speed.
The colder coil would have a greater chance of freezing up. There would have to be an algorithim programmed in the stat to accomplish this. A frozen coil obviously affects the air distribution across the coil and can lead to what appears to be water leaks from the coil cabinet.

 

[Brian_WK]

Good point! I'll talk to the service guy about that when he gets here some time this afternoon.

Yes, my home made marble chip contraption is to soften the furnace condensate. We'll see how that works this winter.

I'm responsible for the rerouted drain line. They had it like this:

Hmm, that makes you think. Isn't there a humidifier on the system?

He has a humidifier on the return air in the upper right looks like a Honeywell steam (BTW good luck with it they are nothing but trouble). Humidifier shouldn't run in the summer unless you live in a very dry place that requires humidity year round. All of the ones in the mid-west only run with the furnace in the winter months. The humidistat is just below it, the white box on the return.
I am also putting a vote in on a/c refrigerant charge being low or TXV being restricted, if all the supplies and returns are open and not covered. I'd say your in service call territory even if you can narrow down the problem to one or the other your going to have to have a tech fix it.

Brian

 

[Platonic Solid]

Are there any flexible return lines that may be collapsed, kinked, or squashed in a wall or crawl you cant see?

Highly unlikely as AC condenser is just outside on the other side of the wall to the left of the furnace. I'll look at them, but I assume these lines don't typically just collapse.

Have you checked the temp split?

I don't have the equipment to do that.

Obviously something has changed in the system. The water from the screw hole has to be blown off from the coil or out of the pan. What kind sensors does the stat use use to trigger the malfunction message? - amp draw, temp sensors, airflow sensors?

I have no idea. The thermostat that came with the Bryant system is the Evolution Delux User Interface (linked).

What brand/model of thermostat are you using for both Temp and Humidity control?

See above

Does the I/O manual say anything about air baffles of any sort for different duct configurations?
I was on an American Standard furnace that tripped the hi limit because it was missing a baffle. It was a mult-poise furnace. Is there a default algorithm for the stat or tech troubleshooting section in the stat I/O manual or software you could access?
Just throwing out ideas to see if something sticks. Obviously has to be related to airflow and coil conditions.

The Evaporator is the CNPVP Preferred Series (linked). I don't see anything about baffles there.

Platonic Solid, I just went through this exact same scenario as you.
My house is only 1.5 yrs old. I called the HVAC guy that installed the system in the home.
Symptoms were very poor cooling performance and the water leaking from around the evaporator coil.
An inspection showed the frozen coil just like yours.
It was very low on refrigerant and he found a leak in the copper line running from the house out to the condenser unit. Repaired line, filled up with refrigerant and all is well now.
They fixed for free to boot!

After changing to the Merv 8 filter, the AC is cooling the house just fine. Now it's just a matter of stopping the water leak and "System Malfunction" message issues. If it's freezing up anywhere, it's not in a location I can see. Makes me wish the whole evaporator enclosure was made of glass.

He has a humidifier on the return air in the upper right looks like a Honeywell steam (BTW good luck with it they are nothing but trouble). Humidifier shouldn't run in the summer unless you live in a very dry place that requires humidity year round. All of the ones in the mid-west only run with the furnace in the winter months. The humidistat is just below it, the white box on the return.

You sure know your humidifiers. Right down to the **** factor of the Honeywell Truesteam. I used to have the HM506 6-Gallon per day unit that ran constantly to keep up with demand. I ended up replacing the whole unit every year no matter how often I cleaned the elements which got caked with calcium deposits from my well water. A previous service company recommend the unit and sized it. After 3 years of replacements I wised up and purchased the HM612 12-Gallon per day unit which works much better. It came with a reverse osmosis filter system which I didn't install last year, but will be installing before this winter.

The humidistat you see is a remnant from the old oil furnace system. The new propane system has the humidifier wired to a relay in the blower box and controlled by the Bryant Evolution thermostat.

For the first 10 years of living in this house I suffered from severe migraines which I eventually linked to the dry air from the forced hot air heating system. It's hard to put a price on being migraine free, but it's pretty high if you're the one suffering from them. Doctors were more than happy to throw pills and expensive tests at me, none of which worked, but they never mentioned dry air as a possible cause.

I am also putting a vote in on a/c refrigerant charge being low or TXV being restricted, if all the supplies and returns are open and not covered. I'd say your in service call territory even if you can narrow down the problem to one or the other your going to have to have a tech fix it.

Agreed. I setup a service call. Tech will be here tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I opened the condenser cover and found LED #2 blinking 2 times, then pause, then 2 times, then pause, etc ... I dug into the manual only to find that the Bryant 187BNA036 Evolution Condensor (linked) code means that it's operating normally in High Stage Cool/Heat Operation. So that's no help.

 

[sevenzeronova]

Thinking your ecm motor is crapping out.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[Platonic Solid]

I looked at the picture of the evap coil again, That black insulation in the picture is covering the remote bulb of a TXV. I think it was on this forum that I read manufactures were having a problem with an oil additive in Copeland compressors restricting the TXVs. Carrier uses Copeland scroll compressors.

I decided this was worth doing some research on. Here's what I found:

Youtube Video

R410A TXV failings across many brands

Service Bulletin DSB 14-0012 which appears to have claim entitlement form at the end. It doesn't have my 3 Ton model 187BNA036 condenser listed though. Only the 2.5 Ton 187BNA024 and smaller.

My questions are:

Does this apply to a unit installed in 2012?
If yes, who pays for repair cost?

 

[theoldwizard1]

I decided this was worth doing some research on. Here's what I found:

Youtube Video

R410A TXV failings across many brands

My questions are:

Does this apply to a unit installed in 2012?
If yes, who pays for repair cost?

Maybe. Mine was installed in 2014 and it was covered.

 

[dreasoner]

I skimmed thru the stat manual. The stat lists the last 10 failure modes, calculates static pressure and exercises the equipment. That is a neat setup. The malfunction message will be cleared when the error codes are cleared. Let us know what the tech finds.

 

[dadsEH]

Wtf good is a drain that allows an inch of water to sit in the bottom of the unit?
Tha drain should exit underneath the pan.

 

[Brian_WK]

I decided this was worth doing some research on. Here's what I found:

Youtube Video

R410A TXV failings across many brands

Service Bulletin DSB 14-0012 which appears to have claim entitlement form at the end. It doesn't have my 3 Ton model 187BNA036 condenser listed though. Only the 2.5 Ton 187BNA024 and smaller.

My questions are:

Does this apply to a unit installed in 2012?
If yes, who pays for repair cost?

If your txv has failed due to oil issues I would think it would be covered under warrenty parts and labor like a recall. Unfortunately if your unit isn't "recalled" it will be under the regular warrenty and will probably only be parts you will still have to pay labor.
If you have a competent tech they should have this diagnosed in an hour. I was changing txvs in a cased coils in about 2 hours start to finish including changing the filter drier so labor shouldn't be terrible.

Brian

 

[JRC3]

I don't have the equipment to do that.

All you need is a simple probe thermometer. Check the temp in the return duct several feet from the unit and then check the output temp somewhere like the first register.

 

[Platonic Solid]

I skimmed thru the stat manual. The stat lists the last 10 failure modes, calculates static pressure and exercises the equipment. That is a neat setup. The malfunction message will be cleared when the error codes are cleared. Let us know what the tech finds.

The way it lists the failure modes is latest failure mode on top with date of last occurrence.

 

[Platonic Solid]

All you need is a simple probe thermometer. Check the temp in the return duct several feet from the unit and then check the output temp somewhere like the first register.

Oh. I googled "temp split" and ended up on this page. Sounds like a good job for the IR camera.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Oh. I googled "temp split" and ended up on this page. Sounds like a good job for the IR camera.

Don't use a camera or a non contact thermometer. Use a good old probe style thermometer so you can stick it into small holes in the duct to read the actual return and supply air temps.

Tommy

 

[rlitman]

Oh. I googled "temp split" and ended up on this page. Sounds like a good job for the IR camera.

Thermal imagers and Raytech thermometers and the like are awful at getting an accurate reading from metallic surfaces. Shiny aluminum (such as fins) especially.

The metal's low emissivity is likely to give you a reading below the actual temperature, though it's reflectivity makes using a thermal imager an especially difficult task. I frequently see apparently "hot" spots on aluminum bus bars and galvanized steel places I wouldn't expect to be hot, simply because I am seeing a reflection of my own heat signature. Outdoors, a reflection of the blue sky can give you surprisingly low temperature readings.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Interesting, 3 New events in the last 8 hrs.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Get the refrigerant charge checked. If it isn't low, check the evaporator fan motor...

Tommy

 

[Platonic Solid]

Confirmed coil is frozen and water leaking from all prior areas plus into furnace.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Tech was here and found a coolant leak at a brazed connection. They are paying for repair and will return tomorrow to evac the system, fix the leak and fill with new coolant.

 

[dreasoner]

Make sure they install a new drier. The POE has a high affinity for moisture. Clad they are covering the cost.

 

[Bunk]

That is the exact location of the leak I had in my system. It's kind of in a tough spot to get to all stuffed up close to the house, must make it hard to get a good look at the joint while brazing. Glad you got it figured out.

 

[JRC3]

Found a guy who does side A/C work. He put in a used compressor for me and a friend. He used regular plumbing solder on that joint. Needless to say both joints failed and he never returned a call call about it. I guess he didn't want to have to pay for the R-22 to redo it...Or the silver solder.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Tech was here and found a coolant leak at a brazed connection. They are paying for repair and will return tomorrow to evac the system, fix the leak and fill with new coolant.

They don't need to recover the refrigerant. They can pump it down... Kids these days...

It doesn't really matter as long as the work good if it's not on your dime.


Tommy

 

[sands35]

That blue thing (dryer?) really should be supported mechanically somehow. It's just asking to break again.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Tech was here and found a coolant leak at a brazed connection. They are paying for repair and will return tomorrow to evac the system, fix the leak and fill with new coolant.

A more correct term is "refrigerant".

Coolant, like in a car, has one purpose. To move heat from point A to point B. Refrigerant does that but is also has the capability of converting from a gas to a liquid and back under appropriate pressure and temperature conditions.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Found a guy who does side A/C work. He put in a used compressor for me and a friend. He used regular plumbing solder on that joint. Needless to say both joints failed and he never returned a call call about it. I guess he didn't want to have to pay for the R-22 to redo it...Or the silver solder.

A/C techs usually braze joints. It may look like soldering, but it is a different filler material and melts at a much higher temp.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Make sure they install a new drier. The POE has a high affinity for moisture. Glad they are covering the cost.

I was at work while this repair was being done and it doesn't look like they replaced the drier. Hopefully that isn't a major issue.