adding a 4th wire, should i be shot for thinking it

[tzcoating]

hello all

I was wondering if someone could help me, I have a 60 amp panel in my dettached garage, that is 220. it has 6/2 wire feeding it. I need to have 6/3 wire to it, I know I have to upgrade the panel which is fine, but my question is and no giggling if its that funny, can I run a seperate 6ga wire along the 6/2 to the panel. (its in underground conduit) and that way have 3 wires and ground out there?

or is there another way to satisfy the requirement for a small oven that needs a 3 wire connection.

I would perfer not to have to buy 60' feet of 6/3 due to the price. but I would want it right so if I have to I have to.

Thank you for any help.

 

[1grnlwn]

As long as it is insulated it should be fine. It is actually unusual these days to have wire in conduit that is bundled.

 

[sberry]

If you have 6/2 you will probably need to pull a neutral wire, its also likely this is not underground wire. Since this already in conduit the ideal thing would be 3 new 6 and a 10 but in a real world if as a home type would probably buy 250 ft of 6 and do it all. The size of the pipe is another factor.

 

[tzcoating]

The pipe is 2" existing wire says 6/3 wg type nw-b.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

 

[Gregishome]

OT states the feeder is 6-2, which is it 6-2 or 6-3 ?

 

[Norcal]

NM cable is not suitable for underground use as it is not code compliant to use it in a conduit outdoors or underground as they are defined as wet locations by the NEC & NM cable is for dry locations only.

 

[tzcoating]

The sheathing on the wire says 6/3 but I looked at the wire coming into the box it has three wires black white and red. 3 wires in a bundle I figured that would be 6/2 . So now I'm confused which it is


Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

 

[tzcoating]

So the previous owner put the wrong wire in the conduit. Should that be removed?

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

 

[PT Doc]

The sheathing on the wire says 6/3 but I looked at the wire coming into the box it has three wires black white and red. 3 wires in a bundle I figured that would be 6/2 . So now I'm confused which it is


Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

Could it be SO or SJO cord that was used? I hope not.

 

[Norcal]

The sheathing on the wire says 6/3 but I looked at the wire coming into the box it has three wires black white and red. 3 wires in a bundle I figured that would be 6/2 . So now I'm confused which it is


Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

NM cable is listed w/ the # of insulated conductors , the grounding conductor is not counted. if the sheathing does not say " w/ground" after the 6/3 there is no grounding conductor, & it should be replaced w/ proper conductors, skin out the insulation & scrap it to ease the financial pain of having replace it.

 

[pattenp]

The pipe is 2" existing wire says 6/3 wg type nw-b.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

That NW-B may have been NM-B. Some how you are missing a ground wire which should be a bare non-insulated wire. You really do need to remove that wire and pull the proper wire for wet locations. I suggest replacing it with Aluminum Mobile Home feeder which is really cheap compared to copper. See this link : http://www.southwire.com/products/MobileHmFeeder.htm

 

[tzcoating]

The cable says 6/3 W/G type NM-B. would W/G mean with ground

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

 

[pattenp]

Yes.

The cable says 6/3 W/G type NM-B. would W/G mean with ground

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

 

[slacker garage shop]

Yes 6/3 wg would have 3 #6 wires and a #10 bare solid ground wire. Suitable for 60 amps. You don't need to pull more wires and if this is in conduit then its fine to pull underground.

 

[Alchymist]

Yes 6/3 wg would have 3 #6 wires and a #10 bare solid ground wire. Suitable for 60 amps. You don't need to pull more wires and if this is in conduit then its fine to pull underground.

NM-B is not suitable for underground.

 

[slacker garage shop]

Its in conduit. Yes it does not comply with NEC but its fine. I've seen worse things done by people in my 20 years as a electrician.

 

[Alchymist]

Its in conduit. Yes it does not comply with NEC but its fine. I've seen worse things done by people in my 20 years as a electrician.

It's "fine" only until that conduit gets water in it.

 

[pattenp]

And if the conduit has been in the ground a number of years then I can say for sure there is water in it now just due to condensation. NM does not belong under ground in conduit.

 

[justsam]

So what is currently terminated in the garage box?
Is it just red, black, and ground? The white, neutral, is not terminated?
If it is terminated, you already have what you need at least electrically.
it is not code due to use of NM.

 

[tzcoating]

The black and the red go to the top posts and the white goes to the bus bar. A buddy stopped by and said the ground was bonded. And All i got to do is run a wire to the ground rod from the box and i got what i need when i change the box

NSA Secure satelight connection ;-)

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Its very possible that someone cut the bare ground off inside the end of the jacket. Strip the cable back and see if there is a bare ground in there. If it says NM-B 6/3 w/g then that bare #10 ground is in there somewhere.

You will need to have a bar that is insulated from the panel box, for the white neutral, and another bar, that is connected to the panel box, in this case, by the attaching screws of the bar. Larger panels will have two insulated bars and a strap to connect them, which can be removed if separate ground and neutral are required, and a screw or lug to connect one of them to the panel box.

NM is not approved for use underground or in a slab, whether in a conduit or not. You be the judge as to whether you need to remove it.

Charles

 

[sberry]

It could be old appliance wire, just 3 insulated conductors. If there are no other interconnecting metal connections between buildings and as you said,,, your bud said it was bonded I think I wouldnt lose sleep, as the man said,, been/seen worse things than a romex in a pipe.
I just re-read this post, I think if I was going to change a panel and give the impression that this was a new service I would change the wire to correct one.

 

[Highbeam]

I just pulled three 92 foot runs of the proper #6 wire plus the #10 ground through conduit to my subpanel for a 60 amp subpanel feed. The wire was under 200$. It costs more than 100 bucks to fill my pickup's fuel tank.

The NM that you have is good stuff but not legal in a buried conduit. What's the worst that could happen? Maybe it could short out? Probably nothing catastrophic.

Before I knew any better I pulled about 30 feet of the same 6/3 NM through undergroudn conduit to my hottub and it passed inspection. It shouldn't have but it did. I am leaving it in place as an experiment.

So has anybody actually had NM fail in a wet location?

 

[pattenp]

I've seen it fail. Friend of mine has a second hand home where the previous owner pulled NM in conduit underground to the detached garage. Water had built up in a low spot in the conduit and the cable shorted out. I'd guess the NM had been in the conduit about 10 years.

I just pulled three 92 foot runs of the proper #6 wire plus the #10 ground through conduit to my subpanel for a 60 amp subpanel feed. The wire was under 200$. It costs more than 100 bucks to fill my pickup's fuel tank.

The NM that you have is good stuff but not legal in a buried conduit. What's the worst that could happen? Maybe it could short out? Probably nothing catastrophic.

Before I knew any better I pulled about 30 feet of the same 6/3 NM through undergroudn conduit to my hottub and it passed inspection. It shouldn't have but it did. I am leaving it in place as an experiment.

So has anybody actually had NM fail in a wet location?

 

[Highbeam]

So what happened? Did the breaker pop? Did the circuit flicker? go to open?

 

[pattenp]

When the moisture finally penetrated the sheathing enough it shorted across the two conductors at the point where the moisture got in. It tripped the breaker and when we tried to reset the breaker it would not reset. When we removed the wire it had a burned out spot where it shorted.

 

[slacker garage shop]

You guys realize that the sheathing around the individual conductors in type NM is basically the same as the sheathing on type thhn which is the NEC approved wire to use in conduit underground. As I said before Type NM is not NEC approved but on MY opinion is not a hazard at all weather the conduit gets wet or not.

 

[Gooch]

You guys realize that the sheathing around the individual conductors in type NM is basically the same as the sheathing on type thhn which is the NEC approved wire to use in conduit underground. As I said before Type NM is not NEC approved but on MY opinion is not a hazard at all weather the conduit gets wet or not.

You realize THHN isn't rated for wet location either right?

If you need 'Romex' underground, just go buy some UF.

 

[slacker garage shop]

You realize THHN isn't rated for wet location either right?

If you need 'Romex' underground, just go buy some UF.

Underground in conduit is considered damp location and YES thhn is what is allowed.
Wth else would you pull in a conduit underground??

 

[Gooch]

Underground in conduit is considered damp location and YES thhn is what is allowed.
Wth else would you pull in a conduit underground??

THWN is for use in conduit in underground. most THHN is slash rated aswell as THWN, but if it was ever straight THHN it would not be allowed in conduit underground.

you can also use XHHW, RHHW, and many other kinds of insulation in conduit underground.

 

[pattenp]

Gooch is correct. Straight rated THHN is not suitable for wet locations. It has to be THWN rated. I don't think you can get straight THHN wire it's usually dual rated THHN/THWN.

 

[slacker garage shop]

Gooch is correct. Straight rated THHN is not suitable for wet locations. It has to be THWN rated. I don't think you can get straight THHN wire it's usually dual rated THHN/THWN.

Exactly. You can't argue a product that isn't available. THHN is what we pull underground in conduit, Maybe your state is different but in Michigan for the 20 years I've been a electrician that's what we pull.

 

[pattenp]

Michigan, enough said. Just ragging on you.

 

[Gooch]

Exactly. You can't argue a product that isn't available. THHN is what we pull underground in conduit, Maybe your state is different but in Michigan for the 20 years I've been a electrician that's what we pull.

if it didn't exist then the rating wouldn't exist. Regardless, you should not be using romex underground.

 

[rabidsquirrel]

Don't know how true it is, but we've been taught that wet romex won't set off a hot stick. Never really got a chance to test it though.

 

[Highbeam]

THHN and romex is not allowed in underground conduit. THWN is allowed in underground conduit. If your conductor has THWN on it then it is fine. I have stripped NM and found that the conductors were not labeled at all so I can't say whether it is THHN or THWN.

I agree that they may be the same thing but the label must be present.

 

[pattenp]

Romex is only stamped on the sheathing not on the individual conductors as to the type. Romex is not "Type THHN" it is "Type NM-B" and is stamped only as that. I just checked three rolls of wire, a #14, #12, and #10 and all are marked as Type NM-B.