Adding GFI to the basement

[roofster]

I have a home built in the 50's. There are no GFI's anywhere and most of it seems to be 2 wire circuits (no ground wire). I would like to start adding GFI protection to the usual places. I know GFI's on 2 wire are allowed, and in some places where the wiring is inaccessible its going to have to stay that way. In the unfinished basement where I could replace the wire, would it be better and worth it to run new romex with a ground wire? Or is a GFI without the ground good enough? The current cable in there is pre-romex, but I don't know what or how old it is.

The service entrance panel is in the basement and I thought that is where I would start updating the outlets. There are 5 120V outlets in the basement, 4 are one 1 circuit and 1 is on a separate one. One of the four is used to run the sump pump, another runs the water softener. I read about a GFI exemption for sump pump if it is a single receptacle. Sounds like a plan. Does the water softener need to be on a GFI protected outlet? I should add that all these basement outlets are in handy boxes, which leads to another question. From the handy boxes, there is 1/2" conduit up the wall to the wood floor joists and framing. From there on, it is cable run through the floor joists. Is it ok to run new romex in the conduit? I thought I saw where this was a big no-no, then I thought where I read it was OK. So I'm not sure. Also there are no clamps or bushings where the cable goes into the conduit, it just goes in. Is that per NEC or not? We bought this house earlier this year, and had it inspected first, but the more I read here and elsewhere the more unimpressed I become with his electrical inspection.

Finally, a little more info on the basement outlet wiring. It may be a multi-wire circuit, but I have not looked yet to see if the breakers are on different legs. One breaker controls 7 keyless light fixtures and another runs the 4 receptacles and one keyless fixture. 12/3 is used from fixture to fixture with lights being on the red wire. The 4 receptacles and fixture on the other the circuit use the black wire and each are fed using a piece of 12/2 from a keyless fixture. White wires are all tied together. One idea I had was to use a GFI breaker for the receptacle, but then the sump pump is on that unless its receptacle is re-wired somewhere else. Based on the answers above, it may be recommended to update to new cable with a ground wire.
If I do that, should I continue this multi-wire scheme or change over to complete and separate circuits? One day, we may want to finish the basement if that makes a difference.

A last question. Down the road, I'm considering replacing the 100 amp panel in my detached pole barn with a new 100 amp one. Would this need a permit or inspection? Would the work in the basement need a permit or inspection? Should I just ask a local inspector these questions?

I'm sure I will have more questions later on, but this is a good start.

Thanks All,

 

[LoneGunman]

If GFI's are not required I would not put them in, I know there will be conflicting opinions, Not saying you should not as I don't know your situation, kids running around ETC.

The exemptions do not apply to you as you do not have to put any GFI's in at all.

I don't like romex in conduit UNLESS it's used as a sleeve for coming down the wall, they make a connector just for this, romex to pipe.

Odds are you will need a permit for your panel change, without knowing your area there is no way to give an answer. Honestly though, MANY panel changes are done without permits. I look at as why should I support the building department by pulling permits, they already get enough in taxes. Then again, the inspector may catch something you screwed up and is a safety hazzard, I am an electrician so I know my panels are good to go.

 

[nissan_crawler]

x2 on not installing gfi's if you don't have to, IMHO. I hate the damned things.

 

[roofster]

Interesting. No kids or grandkids around. Me the wife and a couple of dogs. What about adding GFI's in the bath, kitchen garage, pole barn and outside outlets? Have not had any, but I hate shocks. Also, I know enough to keep my cords in good shape.
Where i have had GFI's my experience has been ok that I remember.

 

[nadogail]

This is one of those situations where no matter what you do someone will find fault with your best intentions. Individual GFCI receptacles where you plug in tools etc. especially when standing on a possibly wet basement floor, are in my opinion a good temporary plan.

Your sump pump will be exempted for good reason, a nusance trip on your GFCI could be disasterous.

Bringing the wiring up to code when you finish the basement, is in my opinion, a good idea and may be a requirement. Please keep in mind that the NEC is a minimum standard.

If you are running your house, workshop, and garage all on the same service; you might keep in mind that a 100 Amp Sercive is the minimum size for a small s stand alone cottage.

When I was in highschool (middle 50's), only the biggest finest houses were built with 100 Amp Services. 200 Amps is the new preferred size for residences with garages and workshops.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The GFI will work fine without a ground. If you do connect this way, you should (by code) placard each outlet "No Equipment Ground". Romex is a bear to pull in conduit, you really don't want to do this if it goes any distance. If these are the real small handy boxes, you will have a hard time installing a GFCI receptacle in the box, the receptacle will interfere with the conduit fitting where it protrudes into the box (assuming this is EMT that has been installed "more recently" and not rigid conduit (which will also interfere with the GFCI receptacle).

I would be inclined to leave well enough alone, and consider eventually replacing the service panel (assuming it is fuses) and upgrading the service to 200 amp. This will take planning and foresight as it will involve a new meter socket, new service feed from the transformer (power company) and new service entrance to the new panel, and the prospect that many of the old circuits will not reach in the new panel and will require splices to make it happen, until you replace the circuits.

It will be well worth it in the end, but lots of planning is needed to keep from being without power.

Charles

 

[roofster]

Its 200 amp service with circuit breakers. Someone already made that upgrade. The kitchen has been remodeled, and an attached garage, family room and laundry room were added. I don't know when these were done, but that's the way it is. Pole barn may be at least 15 years old. I suspect the sevice was changed when the garage & family room were added, since the meter is outside the family room. The old basement windows on one end are now at or under these additions. In the pic, FR is on the left and garage on the right.

 

[octavio3311]

GFCI's are always a good idea - especially in bathrooms, kitchens and outside. It's code around here! You mention that the kitchen was recently remodeled - it should have at least 2 GFCI circuits. If you don't see GFI's in the kitchen - some people don't like the look of the device and intall GFI breakers in the panel instead - do you have GFI breakers?

Adding GFI to any individual receptacle is usually not a big deal. However,as mentioned earlier, older houses sometimes used shallow metal boxes - the GFI's are considerably thicker than standard receptacles and therefore is a pain-in-the *** to install - but turn off the breaker and it can be done.

Another problem with older houses is the wiring goes all over the place. A circuit controlling some first floor receptacles may also be controlling 1 in the garage, a light in the attic, another receptacle in the basement - they jump all over. When adding a GFI to 1 specific location with a wire coming in and a wire going out - assuming you have the room in the box, you splice the hot to hot, the neutral to neutral, the ground to ground (use a copper ground crimp - they save some room and wire nuts on the ground is a code violation here anyway) - then take a 6" lenth of aditional wire and again splice the black to black, the white to white and the ground to ground - this is the "pig tail" that you'll connect to the "line" side of the GFI. Whatever is plugged into the GFI will be protected and the splice thru ensures that whatever follows will remain to get power even if the GFI trips. If you want to control a series of receptacles off a GFI, then power coming in connects to the line side of the GFI and the line going out connects to the load side - therefore everything after that GFI will be protected by the GFI!

 

[Sundowner]

you can also get GFI breakers for the box.