Advice on installing a hanging chiar

[nbpt100]

Someone wants me to install a hanging chair to a bedroom on the top floor. There is a small crawl space above but no access to it.

There are 2 x 8 joists above. in some places I am getting a wider reading with my stud finder. I assume they are lapped together.

I am a little uneasy only going into one unseen 2 x 8. This chair should be able to hold 250 lbs plus there is a dynamic load from it swinging.

Since I can only use a stud finder and I can't see what is there it makes it tricky.
I know I need to be dead center of the 1.5" wide joist and I would use two eyes with lag bolt style threads into two adjacent joists to share the load. Fatigue is a concern.

Looking for suggestions from those with experience on how to approach this and what specific hardware would be optimum. I am leaning to passing right now. Safety and reliability is number one. Thanks.

 

[driftpin]

Pass!

 

[tthornto]

I would pass on that even if by "hanging chair" you mean *** swing and by "someone" you mean someone who wants to use the "hanging chair" with you.

On second thought go for it, in fact just drill all the way through the roof secure it with a backing plate above the roof sheeting and seal it up with a can of Flexseal.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Skychair Definitely one person

If I "had to do this job", I would get a piece of steel about 1-1/2" wide, 1/2" thick and long enough to easily span to joist. Drill a hole in the center and glue a 1/2" nut to the top. Use a 3"-4" hole saw and place a hole between the joists, feed the bar up through and position it spanning the joists. Take the plug you cut out and place a hole in the center for a 1/2" forged lifting eye bolt. Thread the bolt through the hole in the plug and carefully screw it into the captive nut. Loctite is a good idea ! Reinsert plug and patch seem.

 

[rlitman]

You guys are so overthinking this. 3/8" eye lags with a 375lb SWL (and well more) are easy to come by.

Use the stud finder to give yourself an approximate location, and then probe with something pointy to properly locate the edges of the joist, from which you can deduce the center.

PRE-DRILL before installing a lag, so you don't get splitting.

Hang a COMPRESSION porch swing spring from the eye to reduce any shock loading.
Get the compression type that cannot easily snap:

and NOT the expansion type:

And then enjoy your *** swing, or whatever you want to call it.

 

[meboatermike]

Well I do think there is over thinking going on here about this -- however I do have the advantage of being able to see the "ceiling joists". We have had a couple of these hanging net type chairs installed on a screened in porch at a camp on the lake for years. (Note: in Maine a camp would be what people in many other parts of the country would call a cottage or a cabin ). Ours are lagged into a single joist each and have been for years -- the only addition I have added (to the one that gets used the most) was some wood blocking a few inches away on two sides of the lag to eliminate some slight sway and squeaking of the joist. Like I said though I can see the full joist and the lag.

 

[PassnThru]

How high do they want it? Normal sitting height is not that far from the floor if it falls. Unlikely to produce traumatic injuries unless Tampa is your client and one of his ladies is on top

In this particular case, I would be more worried about the drywall on the ceiling cracking than the chair falling. Which means - you have to spread the load. You need something that passes as half way decorative at the top to get it over three joists or so.

How about centering a round piece of 3/4 plywood over the main fastening point with additional fasteners around the circle?

 

[Marctrees]

Hey... seeing as how it will probably be over the bed, no worries.

Otherwise, if over the floor... the risk of the ceiling collapsing should be an additional selling point to having you do it.

Kinda one of those "Thrill" things.

For the Chair user I mean.

I would highly suggest that as part of the job, you mandate to be able to come in and take photos of this "Chair" in dynamic use.

Strictly of course for scientific purposes, to post for GJ engineering education.

Re: the tech question of hanging.. I put one in the front hallway of an extensively built RV on a School Bus chassis/ body.. I ran an eyebolt through the roof... and through a heavy AL member that spanned two roof "joists", culked well on top w RTV silicone.

Good times... I was younger... and more "able" than now.

Marc

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

So, what about drilling a small hole in the ceiling and sticking one of those "inspection camera's" in to see what is up there, then patching the hole?



.

 

[Marctrees]

A 3/8 eyescrew w like 4" of thread... screwed into a PROPERLY sized pilot hole.. should be adequate.

BUT... DEFINATELY test it w the Homeowner's Missus before you leave.

Unless, of course, she is a single "Cat Lady" w a mustache upper lip that she shaves leaving sharp stubble... that will use it only for reading Books... then no photos needed.

Marc

 

[isb cornbinder]

Are you able to use something like a swing set frame over the bed?

 

[nbpt100]

It is what I said....it is just a chair and nothing ******. I know this is disappointing to some.

If I could get up to the crawl space I would use a piece of steel across the joist and fasten it to the joists so it will not walk. Bolt on some threaded rod in two places and fasten a round bar across on the room side of the ceiling. Easy peesy. right?

I am thinking of using two 3/8 eye bolts threaded into the wood 2x 8 joist. I think the ones I saw had a 275 lb working load. As long As i can be on center and drill the pilot hole perpendicular I feel ok . what about using a 2 inch hole saw to just remove the sheet rock and expose the joist. With visibility I can be on center. Patch it up with a round electrical box plate. Drill a center hole, Paint white and install a rubber grommet on the bolt shaft extending below for aesthetics.

 

[Jim_No_Garage]

The proper way to do this would be to cut open the ceiling, install a serious chunk of wood between 2 rafters and attach an eye ring to the chunk of wood. You might want to strap a few more rafters together from above for stability to spread any rocking motion.

Patch the hole and your good to go.

I have an Air Chair hanging in the back yard and love it - but it's hanging from a 100 year old Ash tree.

https://airchair.net/product/air-chair-original/

Jim

 

[Todd.Brock]

I would highly encourage you to consult an engineer. Lol...


I think some good sized eye bolts pre drilled will suit you. May crack the drywall joints in ceiling eventually. Is this one of those fancy pants designer chairs to use on TV? Just curious....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ace10]

Blindly lagging an eye into a single piece of dimensional lumber is a seriously bad idea, IMO.

You need to visually inspect the conditions, and then the likely solution is to span across several of the joists, then eye bolt through. Assuming the joists are scabbed or rotten, or whatever.


$0.02

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Just my $.02. I'm a Certified Playground Safety Inspector. Lag bolts are not allowed to support swings. In a nutshell, swings must be supported by a clamp-on hanger or through bolted. The sheetrock and spackle will almost definitely suffer from stud movement no matter how it's done.

Tommy

 

[nbpt100]

Blindly lagging an eye into a single piece of dimensional lumber is a seriously bad idea, IMO.

You need to visually inspect the conditions, and then the likely solution is to span across several of the joists, then eye bolt through. Assuming the joists are scabbed or rotten, or whatever.


$0.02

That is why I want to cut a hole to see what is there. I never intended to do it blind.
I failed to mention this is new construction. 1 to 2 yrs old. Not worried about old rotten wood. However the contractor may have used a crummy 2 x 8s in places nobody would likely see.

I could cut a large opening so that a person could actually go up there and do the most robust bracing. Later turn it into a trap door for maintenance... I seriously doubt the owner would want that. It gets complicated and costly. There is probably a thick layer of fiberglass insulation on top of that ceiling.

 

[nbpt100]

Just my $.02. I'm a Certified Playground Safety Inspector. Lag bolts are not allowed to support swings. In a nutshell, swings must be supported by a clamp-on hanger or through bolted.

Tommy

Thanks for your input.
I understand why there are regulations for a public swing or playground equipment. However it is Not an apples to apples comparison to a private home in an indoor setting. Totally different condition.

Wood Screw type hooks are sold in packages by companies like National labeled for hanging swings. They put a rubber grommet in the eyelet and have a metal base for the eye to bottom on to reduce the torsional force on the screw to wood connection. They have them at True Value.

The concern is the width of the joist. If I knew there was a 4" wide beam to put it into..... it would not be a big concern.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I'm sorry, I didn't really make my point clear. It's not about whether it's for public or home use. It's simply poor engineering. There is no way to prevent a lag style screw eye secured vertically into wood from loosening over time when the load is not static and the eye is subject to shear stress. That hardware you can buy is illegal for public use just for that reason.

If you're going to make an access panel, I'd use a hefty cross beam and use this type of swing hook:





https://www.natman.com/detail/v2039-swing-hook-kits-n264-077

Tommy

 

[Lassen Forge]

The proper way to do this would be to cut open the ceiling, install a serious chunk of wood between 2 rafters and attach an eye ring to the chunk of wood. You might want to strap a few more rafters together from above for stability to spread any rocking motion.

Patch the hole and your good to go.

This. Regardless if it's a porch swing or a *** harness, you want to anchor it to it's own beam attached across multiple ceiling joists that are themselves supported by load bearing walls, to take both the weight and motion. And you want it bolted through and through - no lag screws. A piece of steel plate on top of your beam isn't a bad idea...

When you refinish the ceiling, you may want to make clearance allowances around the eyebolts, as like Tommy said, any movement will screw up your ceiling sheetrock.

If it seems like a lot of work to do wright, it is, that's why you don't see it very often... but it's a cool idea. You can even support a bed or couch or whatever using the same idea...

 

[rlitman]

Just my $.02. I'm a Certified Playground Safety Inspector. Lag bolts are not allowed to support swings. In a nutshell, swings must be supported by a clamp-on hanger or through bolted. The sheetrock and spackle will almost definitely suffer from stud movement no matter how it's done.

Tommy

Maybe in a commercial or public environment. Lots of swings are installed on lags. Or were these just made to not be used?

I'm sorry, I didn't really make my point clear. It's not about whether it's for public or home use. It's simply poor engineering. There is no way to prevent a lag style screw eye secured vertically into wood from loosening over time when the load is not static and the eye is subject to shear stress. That hardware you can buy is illegal for public use just for that reason.

If you're going to make an access panel, I'd use a hefty cross beam and use this type of swing hook:





https://www.natman.com/detail/v2039-swing-hook-kits-n264-077

Tommy

Well that makes a lot more sense. But I'd only trust that if it had something like a nyloc nut on the top. Something that prevents it from backing out in addition to that plate.

And that's actually not a terrible idea, except for one issue. Most swing hangers like that are only rated for 115 lbs SWL, because they use 5/16" hardware and a weak S hook.

As for getting the nut on top, you could easily cut a hole to fit one of these:

reach in with your hand to get a nut on, and then cover with a blank electrical cover plate.

 

[Marctrees]

The public or school playground is more of hard and frequent and potential vandalism abuse and higher legal liability situation, so apparently mandates upgraded hardware.

Makes sense.

Marc

 

[LS6 Tommy]

The public or school playground is more of hard and frequent and potential vandalism abuse and higher legal liability situation, so apparently mandates upgraded hardware.

Makes sense.

Marc

That may very well be a consideration that comes into play at the design level. The ASTM Standards that the CPSC uses for rating equipment are based solely on safety, calling for the setup, spacing, fall zones, play surfaces and design elements that may cause entrapments, strangulation, injuries from impacts against hardware or equipment elements during falls, and other tests. The standards are not so much about preventing equipment failures, but there are some things that they feel are enough of a bad idea they just plain don't approve them. Lag swing hangers are one of those items.
Pretty much all of the better residential swingsets/playground sets use through bolts or at the very least, plate and shackle swing hangers.

Tommy

 

[PassnThru]

And yet - somewhere in this great land of ours - is a hanging chair that was originally installed with drywall screws into one joist.

It may still be in use. Who knows - depends on a lot of factors.
If they failed, then they probably got replaced with deck screws and everyone lived happily ever after.

I had to replace the swing beam on my kid's play set last year. Originally, it was through bolted. Now it has lags. The through bolts are probably what helped set the rot in motion since T-nuts were used on the top. Now there are no holes in the top of the beam to let water in.

I will swing on it any day with complete confidence.

To the OP - if you aren't comfortable with it then just walk away from it. You are right to worry about the potential liability - when they do double up on it then your safety margin goes out the door. Play stupid games and find someone to blame when it goes wrong - that's the credo these days.

 

[Marctrees]

LS6 All makes sense.

Certainly through bolting and some other methods are better.. Totally agree..but for a lighter duty Res use, even though prudent, subjectively necessary.

We do not disagree at all I don't think.

My hanging chair was definitely through bolted.

In OP's situation, with no real access.. and yr old construction considered.. I would "feeler" up the sides of theJoist w wire coat hanger to confirm a few diff things, then drill a CORRECTLY sized pilot hole..NOT too loose, and not too tight to threaten to split the joist if in an uknown area of wild non straight wood grain.. carefully plumb and centered.. screw in a 3/8 eye screw w a ex longer then common 4" shank, seat the eye ALL the way up to scraping the sheetrock..to eliminate any "leveraging" and then dynamic overtest it, while watching for not only failure, but sheetrock tape crack, etc.

Should be more than fine for years, as long as done by a competent experienced intelligent sober installer.

Marc

 

[Marctrees]

nbpt said "It is what I said....it is just a chair and nothing ******. I know this is disappointing to some."

Yes, it is.





Marc

 

[PassnThru]

Should be more than fine for years, as long as done by a competent experienced intelligent sober installer.
Marc

Well now you're making it pretty much impossible with those standards

 

[Marctrees]

Ya, well I mean it.

It IS simple.. but NOT as simple as it looks to a simple mind.

Marc

 

[TractorJeff]

For what its worth!
At my parents house was a bench type porch swing eye bolted into 2x6's for years!
It fell when my two 250 lb plus sister-in-laws were drunkenly swinging on it!
Didn't rip out the eyebolts, instead broke the dog chain that was used to support it.
Sometimes you guys get too ******* with liability that your advice is useless!

 

[nbpt100]

And yet - somewhere in this great land of ours - is a hanging chair that was originally installed with drywall screws into one joist.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FYC844W/?tag=atomicindus08-20

They probably used one of these.......looks like 4 #10 wood screws. the metal can handle 500 lbs. But there is no guarantee the screws wont pull out from fatigue.

nbpt said "It is what I said....it is just a chair and nothing ******. I know this is disappointing to some."

Yes, it is.

Marc

Sorry. I doubt they want their 12 year old to have one of those.

 

[PassnThru]

And yet - somewhere in this great land of ours - is a hanging chair that was originally installed with drywall screws into one joist.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FYC844W/?tag=atomicindus08-20

They probably used one of these.......looks like 4 #10 wood screws. the metal can handle 500 lbs. But there is no guarantee the screws wont pull out from fatigue.

From the first review -
CHECK THE WIDTH OF THE MOUNTING BRACKET.
The hardware is good quality....very heavy duty.
The one issue I had was with the mounting bracket. Considering how much weight this needs to hold, you need to screw it directly into a 2X4.(assuming you are hanging this indoors, as I was, in my kid's bedroom)
A 2X4 is only 1.5 inches wide...the holes in the bracket are slightly wider than that. So I was faced with one of the screws being on the edge of the 2X4, that made me uncomfortable. Maybe it would have been fine, but my teenager sitting in this is 110 lbs so I was concerned.

That's funny - so if you only have one joist you can't even use all four screws! As to my earlier point, they are out there.

 

[Bretny]

You guys are so overthinking this. 3/8" eye lags with a 375lb SWL (and well more) are easy to come by.

Use the stud finder to give yourself an approximate location, and then probe with something pointy to properly locate the edges of the joist, from which you can deduce the center.

PRE-DRILL before installing a lag, so you don't get splitting.

Hang a COMPRESSION porch swing spring from the eye to reduce any shock loading.
Get the compression type that cannot easily snap:

and NOT the expansion type:

And then enjoy your *** swing, or whatever you want to call it.

Those are going to feel great when the dinky 3/8 eye pulls out and they smack you in the chest.

 

[TractorJeff]

I have heavy duty dual wheel semi-tractor chains hanging on 2 "dinky 3/8" eye bolts and they haven't bent nor fell out. The two sets weigh more than one guy can lift.