Advice on rake/eave/soffit ladders

[TravelingLight]

I've gotten a lot of great tips just lurking on this board, but it's finally time for some questions myself. Disclaimer: I'm sure I will use some terminology incorrectly, but hopefully it'll be enough context to understand.

I'm currently in the process of building a 12x20 shed, on a slab, 6/12 roof. I'm ready to start sheeting (sheathing?) the roof, but the rake ladders/overhangs are causing me some stress.

Some specifics about this build: This shed is permitted/inspected by my city, i.e., 2015 IRC. The roof trusses are engineered trusses built by people much smarter and qualified than I am, i.e., I can't notch them out. Nor did I get the gable trusses dropped/built lower to accommodate lookouts/fly rafters.

So I'm stuck with just tacking on the ladders to the gable ends. NOTE: I live in the deep south, deep enough that snow/snow load is basically non existent. Also, my overhangs are only 12". I've gotten one up, and it was a real PITA. I built the ladder entirely on the ground, 24" OC, and hauled it up there by myself, got it tacked on and have a temporary support on it for now:

This process isn't going to work for me. I'm building this entirely myself, so lugging a ladder up like that is difficult. So I had another idea, and I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts. Can I sheet the roof first, but hang the OSB over 12" to accommodate the ladders, then add the ladders by piece? As in, after sheeting the roof with the overhanging OSB, then add the back 2x4 (attached to the gable end), add in the cripple(?) studs, and then the front 2x4? And of course attach the OSB to the ladders as well. I hope, because this would be insanely easier on me.

Finally, I've framed out the structure using a framing nailer, instead of screws, because code. But can I/should I use screws to attach the roof OSB sheets? Seems like the general consensus is better strength/holding power with certain screws over nails from a pneumatic framing nailer?

Thank you all! I wish I would have found this board before I started this project.

 

[Kaizen]

Go get some grk screws to go through ladder into truss. Basically a structural screw with a big head

You did it right but here is what I did to make solo install easier. You have one 2x attaches to ladder. Build next one with that and one more screwed to the ladder about half way. Might need 3 for that overhang. The 2xs balance out the load. Stand up the overhang from the ground and slide it up. The long counterbalance 2xs will slide on top of the other trusses. Put a few screws in to hold and then attach as described above. Make sure you have eave support or brackets for that big. Also use screws and thicker roof if you can. The thick ply will help hold up the ladder


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[Innovate1]

From what I have been told the extra support isn't really needed for 12" overhangs. I had closed in soffits and larger edge boards so was able to put a 2 x 4 flat under the top cord of the truss in several spots and back to the next truss. It supports the edge board both vertically and horizontally and makes everything much more rigid. But if you only have 2x4 boards it won't be hidden so that may not work. I would say putting up ladders in pieces would be fine if you need them at all. To be most effective the cross pieces need to fit tight as they are in compression to support the load. It would be best if you nailed the ladders together before you nailed the sheeting on to get things tight.

 

[Innovate1]

Go get some grk screws to go through ladder into truss. Basically a structural screw with a big head

You did it right but here is what I did to make solo install easier. You have one 2x attaches to ladder. Build next one with that and one more screwed to the ladder about half way. Might need 3 for that overhang. The 2xs balance out the load. Stand up the overhang from the ground and slide it up. The long counterbalance 2xs will slide on top of the other trusses. Put a few screws in to hold and then attach as described above. Make sure you have eave support or brackets for that big. Also use screws and thicker roof if you can. The thick ply will help hold up the ladder


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Good idea on how to get the ladders up! Took me a minute to visualize it.

I thought the idea of the ladder was to hold up the roof. Putting on thicker sheeting to hold up the ladder is kind of ironic. If you do that just skip the ladder.

 

[TravelingLight]

Go get some grk screws to go through ladder into truss. Basically a structural screw with a big head

You did it right but here is what I did to make solo install easier. You have one 2x attaches to ladder. Build next one with that and one more screwed to the ladder about half way. Might need 3 for that overhang. The 2xs balance out the load. Stand up the overhang from the ground and slide it up. The long counterbalance 2xs will slide on top of the other trusses. Put a few screws in to hold and then attach as described above. Make sure you have eave support or brackets for that big. Also use screws and thicker roof if you can. The thick ply will help hold up the ladder

Great advice. Let me make sure I am understanding correctly...

You're saying to build the ladders, and attach the "top brace" on top of the ladder (like the one I have up near the peak in the picture), but have two, or possibly three top braces. Then I can stand them up near the corner of the building, and slide the ladder up into place? Assuming that's correct, what's going to hold it in place while I shimmy up the ladder to anchor it to the gable wall? Or you're saying to run the top braces long so that counterbalance the ladders?

So I'm guessing my plan of running the OSB long and then building in the ladders is no good?

I just had a eureka moment, actually. Do I even need to do ladders?! It'll be a closed/boxed in soffit. So couldn't I just run the OSB long, then tack in some 12" 2x4s underneath, slap on the fascia board, and close in the underside with plywood?! This seems even easier...

 

[TravelingLight]

Scratch that. I think I'm going to build them as I did the first one, but cut them in half and put each one up in two pieces.

 

[Heap64]

Too bad more truss companies don't like to build dropped top chord gables. Basically 3.5 lower so you can run 2x4's back to your first interior truss. I think this is better than ladders.

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[TravelingLight]

Too bad more truss companies don't like to build dropped top chord gables. Basically 3.5 lower so you can run 2x4's back to your first interior truss. I think this is better than ladders.

I totally agree. But not much I can do about it...

 

[Skiff Builder]

TL,
I used the overhang the roof sheathing (5/8ply) 12",attach the inside ladder piece, quik clamp the subfascia to edge of ply, than add the blocking 32"oc and fasten it all together method on this shed/garage build. Worked well.

When working alone,take a little time and make 2 or 3 all purpose "L" brackets up. 16 or 24" each leg, out of thick ply or 5/4 stock with a triangular 3/4 ply web glued/fastened within the L. I dado mine in.
These things have many uses from holding staging , trim, rake ladders, cabinets and a million other uses. There's 3 in the bottom of pic below (partial) will try and find a better shot.
Skiff

 

[Innovate1]

Too bad more truss companies don't like to build dropped top chord gables. Basically 3.5 lower so you can run 2x4's back to your first interior truss. I think this is better than ladders.

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I doubt it's the truss companies. I think they provide what people ask for. Unless it's on the plans why would they do it? If it's on the plans why would they not? I have limited experience but they have just provided what I have asked for. If I would have asked for dropped cord I think they would have provided it without any issue.

 

[Kaizen]

Great advice. Let me make sure I am understanding correctly...



You're saying to build the ladders, and attach the "top brace" on top of the ladder (like the one I have up near the peak in the picture), but have two, or possibly three top braces. Then I can stand them up near the corner of the building, and slide the ladder up into place? Assuming that's correct, what's going to hold it in place while I shimmy up the ladder to anchor it to the gable wall? Or you're saying to run the top braces long so that counterbalance the ladders?



So I'm guessing my plan of running the OSB long and then building in the ladders is no good?



I just had a eureka moment, actually. Do I even need to do ladders?! It'll be a closed/boxed in soffit. So couldn't I just run the OSB long, then tack in some 12" 2x4s underneath, slap on the fascia board, and close in the underside with plywood?! This seems even easier...

Have a top, middle, and bottom brace. So the ladder is hanging off the 2x. One screw somewhere near the bottom will hold it so you can get down and make sure it’s tight.
Running just roof ply will end up a mess. It needs support.
If you do it in two sections screw a 2x in the inside of the split to make it one piece after it’s up


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[matt_i]

This would be prime time to get a helper to support the lower end. I clamped these in place with bar clamps until satisfied with the alignment then put in the GRK-RSS screws. I put torx screws everywhere else to backup any nails. Its not the place where you want anything pulling apart and there's plenty of cantilever.

 

[jives]

I did what you mentioned doing. . . sheath the roof first with a 12" overhang, then build the ladder underneath. Not the best way, but when you are doing it by yourself you need to make adjustments.

BTW, placing boards or plywood or OSB on top of the rafters to form the roof is sheathing, but the lumber material is called sheeting. So, I use sheeting to sheath the roof.

 

[TravelingLight]

TL,
I used the overhang the roof sheathing (5/8ply) 12",attach the inside ladder piece, quik clamp the subfascia to edge of ply, than add the blocking 32"oc and fasten it all together method on this shed/garage build. Worked well.

When working alone,take a little time and make 2 or 3 all purpose "L" brackets up. 16 or 24" each leg, out of thick ply or 5/4 stock with a triangular 3/4 ply web glued/fastened within the L. I dado mine in.
These things have many uses from holding staging , trim, rake ladders, cabinets and a million other uses. There's 3 in the bottom of pic below (partial) will try and find a better shot.
Skiff

Thank you so much, Skiff. A couple questions...

Did you do your subfascia with 2x material? Assuming so, did you then do a final fascia board with 1x?

I'm not sure I'm following you on the L brackets, and couldn't tell from the pics. I'm very interested if you can find another pic or something. Sounds like some good items to have as I finish this build up.

ETA: Nevermind! I see the L brackets now. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Skiff Builder]

TL,
Yes I used 2x6 sub facia/rakes. Covered with 5/4 roughsawn Pine(Hemlock) trim-Repurposed from floorboards of the 30 year old shed this one replaced.

 

[TravelingLight]

TL,
Yes I used 2x6 sub facia/rakes. Covered with 5/4 roughsawn Pine(Hemlock) trim-Repurposed from floorboards of the 30 year old shed this one replaced.

Thanks brother! I really appreciate the great advice. I hope to get at least half the roof up this weekend!

 

[scottydosnntkno]

I doubt it's the truss companies. I think they provide what people ask for. Unless it's on the plans why would they do it? If it's on the plans why would they not? I have limited experience but they have just provided what I have asked for. If I would have asked for dropped cord I think they would have provided it without any issue.

Exactly. Our truss company builds us some insanely complicated trusses depending on the roof shape.

We’ve had 65’ long, double hip trusses with a tray ceiling in one room below, with energy heels. So imagine a 65’ long 12’ high double peak truss(like a Mountain range) with a large rectangle carved out of the bottom. Angle bracers, large plates and 2x10 webs everywhere. That one truss would have had $500 in lumber in it if you bought it at Home Depot.

They’re all built to your specs. If you ask for drop chord, they’ll do it. Truss companies can virtually engineer anything you want

 

[Theruse]

Whex4n I decided to add a ladder I had the same issue. I built it on the ground in pressure treated wood, so a bit heavier. Before I built the ladder I put the 2x4 against the rafter lined it up, then drilled a hole through both the ladder 2X4 and the rafter (about 24 inches down from the hip). I then built the ladder. I was then able to stand up the ladder, align the holes and put a bolt through it. Then I just walked up the other end of the ladder, aligned it and then clamped it before screwing it in to the rafter. Basically, just used leverage and it was real simple.

 

[Theruse]

When I decided to add a ladder I had the same issue. I built it on the ground in pressure treated wood, so a bit heavier. Before I built the ladder I put the ladders 2x4 side against the rafter lined it up, then drilled a hole through both the ladder 2X4 and the rafter (about 24 inches down from the hip). I then built the ladder. I was then able to stand up the ladder, align the holes and put a bolt through it. Then I just walked up the other end of the ladder, aligned it and then clamped it before screwing it in to the rafter. Basically, just used leverage and it was real simple.

 

[Heap64]

I doubt it's the truss companies. I think they provide what people ask for. Unless it's on the plans why would they do it? If it's on the plans why would they not? I have limited experience but they have just provided what I have asked for. If I would have asked for dropped cord I think they would have provided it without any issue.

You are correct, I worded this poorly. Around here this is often driven buy a lumber yard if not called out by either a builder or architect. If not they often default to bidding and building what they can the easiest and cheapest. We still get away with not much more than a floor plan and elevations to build for most projects.


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[spudley]

On one side of my build I put 20' 2x6" ladders up alone using Skiff's triangular brkts. I spaced three brkts out on the wall then lifted the monster onto the first one. Then I got back on the ground and pushed the beast up over the second brkt and braced it to a 2x4 so it wouldn't slide back down. I then ratchet strapped it up to the third brkt and finally to the peak. Screwed and nailed it in place.
It worked but I strongly recommend you get a buddy to help.

This took way too much time and energy, and being an old guy I don't have too much of either left.

 

[TravelingLight]

Exactly. Our truss company builds us some insanely complicated trusses depending on the roof shape.

We’ve had 65’ long, double hip trusses with a tray ceiling in one room below, with energy heels. So imagine a 65’ long 12’ high double peak truss(like a Mountain range) with a large rectangle carved out of the bottom. Angle bracers, large plates and 2x10 webs everywhere. That one truss would have had $500 in lumber in it if you bought it at Home Depot.

They’re all built to your specs. If you ask for drop chord, they’ll do it. Truss companies can virtually engineer anything you want

I don't even know what a lot of this means, but now I'm super curious about "energy heels."

 

[spudley]

I don't even know what a lot of this means, but now I'm super curious about "energy heels."

An energy heel is a raised area where the truss rests on the wall plate. It allows more insulation to be added in what normally is pretty limited space.

 

[boostaholic1]

Looks like you have plenty of advice here, but I will weigh in.

How I did mine was build basically a wall on the floor the distance from the fascia to the top of the peak. I did 24" centers measuring from the fascia board. Slid the "wall" from the front of the fascia all the way to the peak. I had some clamps ready to go when I got the ladders in place. My ladders extended into the first inner truss. I clamped it to that truss and nailed it with plenty of nails. Put sheathing over it and roofed it.
I hope I described this method good enough.