Got power completed to the meter today, so I will be running my electric service this weekend into my building. Looking at the new codes, it looks like I have to use AFCI breakers almost everywhere for 15 and 20 A except the kitchen and bath and other wet locations, where I will use GFCI outlets. These dang things are 35 bucks each!!!!Is there anywhere I wont need them, like the garage?
AFCI breakers and the 2017 NEC
- Thread starter mrpizza
- Start date
exranger06
Well-known member
You do need AFCI for the kitchen. The only places you don't need them are bathrooms, garage, outside outlets and lights, and I believe unfinished basements and attics.
aandpdan
Well-known member
The kitchen is now required to AFCI as well but not the bath or the garage.
Per the NFPA.
Per the NFPA.
I am by no means a resi guy but I can tell you that you need to find out what code year your municipality has adopted. If they have gone to the latest and greatest, well there you have it. But most are normally at least one or two revisions behind. It's worth asking your building department.
sherrod624
Well-known member
Take some advice I received from other gj professionals. Call your inspector. regardless of what code your following, since its for yourself he may let some things slide. I called my inspector and he said he would only be looking for afci breakers on receptacles that weren't gfci protected. He would not be looking for them on lighting circuits. Saved me $2-300 dollars.
That being said I have been amazed that since I had my power turned on, during my construction I've ran every power tool that goes along with trim out off of my afci circuits and haven't popped one yet. 30yr old belt sander that you can see the brushes arcing, shop vac, table saw, miter saw, sds hammer drills. So my opinion is that although pricey so far they've not been too cumbersome
That being said I have been amazed that since I had my power turned on, during my construction I've ran every power tool that goes along with trim out off of my afci circuits and haven't popped one yet. 30yr old belt sander that you can see the brushes arcing, shop vac, table saw, miter saw, sds hammer drills. So my opinion is that although pricey so far they've not been too cumbersome
rattle_snake
Well-known member
Step 1 is to see which revision is applicable to you, I bet it is not 2017, and you do not need them.
But, the company I work for supplies the microcontroller that detects the arc, so if you buy a bunch of them my stock should go up.
But, the company I work for supplies the microcontroller that detects the arc, so if you buy a bunch of them my stock should go up.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
The OPs state, Illinois, doesnt have a statewide adoption of the NEC.
So OP needs ro check with his AHJ before planning or spending any money on things he may not need.
http://www.mikeholt.com/necadoptionlist.php
I havent checked with the code department since I don't need any building permits or inspections for anything. Only permit was for the septic. I will call the county and the nearest town and see what they say and proceed accordingly.
I just checked the city website for the town I live in (but I am out of city limits so subject to the county) and it is NEC 2008.
I just checked the city website for the town I live in (but I am out of city limits so subject to the county) and it is NEC 2008.
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klassenl
Well-known member
Can you elaborate on this controller. I am in the trade and I like to learn about these things as much as possible.
Orionrising
Well-known member
And can you tell us if there really is a technical reason they can't make say 60 amp 2 pole ones so you could just run a sub.. or even afci main breakers?...
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grantw
Well-known member
I'm having a kitchen sub installed and fear for the hell I am about to endure. under the 2014NEC California has adopted. I am not looking forward to nuisance tripping when I try to run any appliance. In the long run, I'd much rather have a branch AFCI/GFCI trip on me than the whole 100A kitchen sub.
I like the idea of a AFCI protected panel, in theory. But, AFCIs have a LONG way to go before they are no longer a nuisance.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
That's actually a concern now. There are people who have tried to get the latest AFCI breakers trip, and they can't.
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Maybe he could just give you the name of their lobbyists? This is the most recent form of snake oil we have experienced. I'm all for making a buck via innovation, but these AFCI requirements are BS.
marinusdees
Well-known member
Then how do you know they actually work?? Because it says so on the box??
American Locomotive
Well-known member
I've seen more than one person simulating series and parallel arcs and newer AFCIs happily ignored them. It seems they fixed the "nuisance tripping", by making AFCIs insensitive to everything but the "test arc" used during design.
prostreetamx
Well-known member
rattle_snake
Well-known member
There is a microcontroller in the breaker that has several analog to digital converter channels to monitor both voltage and current at all times. There is an algorithm running that is looking for a certain set of V/I profiles, likely stored in lookup tables. When it detects a sequence of events that matches the fault conditions, it trips. I bet they continue to improve in many ways.
Same products are in smoke detectors and fire fighter safety gear so bases are covered.
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Zeke
Well-known member
All I can tell you is that they work. I had the very same arc fault these are designed for, but I didn't have them at the time. Lots of buzzing during a rain that got into a box. And then total failure. Why no fire, I'll never know. My whole house (AFA living space branch circuits are on AFCI breakers with GFCI's where indicated
.
I had an old ceiling fan go wonky and that was the only 'nuisance' tripping I've had. Replaced the old fan and not a trip since. It was the infinite controller in the fan housing. NLA for Casablanca fans and for good reason. They last 10 years and that's it. $800 fan.
.
I had an old ceiling fan go wonky and that was the only 'nuisance' tripping I've had. Replaced the old fan and not a trip since. It was the infinite controller in the fan housing. NLA for Casablanca fans and for good reason. They last 10 years and that's it. $800 fan.
OH_Varmntr
Well-known member
The combination GFCI/AFCI units are cheaper now than dedicated GFCI units. That's why I bought mine. It trips 4 out of 5 times I use it for my new 13-amp Delta table saw.
AntonLargiader
Well-known member
When talking about CAFI breakers tripping, it's helpful to say if the breaker tripped for AF or for GF. The ones I have (Homeline) can be tested for 30 days after a trip and they will indicate the nature of the last fault.
The 15A and 20A 120V breakers are about $40 each.
The 15A and 20A 120V breakers are about $40 each.
toplessHO
Well-known member
Heres why its mandated to use arc flash
changed this one out that was behind a mattress
Relative said "well I had heard it sizzling for a while"
gezz could have burned the house down.
Had aluminum wire feeding it,but that wasnt the problem,it was the cheap outlet
and being under a strain pulled sideways,thereby losing the male plug/female outlet contact
changed this one out that was behind a mattress
Relative said "well I had heard it sizzling for a while"
gezz could have burned the house down.
Had aluminum wire feeding it,but that wasnt the problem,it was the cheap outlet
and being under a strain pulled sideways,thereby losing the male plug/female outlet contact
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toplessHO
Well-known member
to add insult to injury the outlet wasnt pigtailed just used the duplex connectors to carry the circuit thru
AntonLargiader
Well-known member
FYI "arc flash" is different - basically a metallic explosion resulting from a high-voltage arc - while "arc fault" is the idea of detecting poor connections by looking for their arc signature.
To expand a bit on the terminology for general interest there is parallel arcing (essentially short-circuit arcing) and series arcing (open-circuit arcing). Detecting both is called Combined Arc Fault Circuit Interrupt (CAFCI) and when combined with GFCI they are called Dual Function, at least in Schneider's terminology.
AFCI = parallel arc detection
CAFCI = parallel and series detection
DF = CAFCI + GFCI
So, I should have said Dual Function in my previous post, rather than CAFI. DF breakers are as inexpensive as any of them, so I don't really see a reason to buy anything else unless you specifically don't want GFCI.
Schneider has some decent FAQ pages about this stuff if you Google it.
toplessHO
Well-known member
whoops yea had arc flash on my mind as its time to reup my card on it.
and to correct you arc flash doesnt have to be "high voltage" but it is high amperage
vaporization of metal.
and to correct you arc flash doesnt have to be "high voltage" but it is high amperage
vaporization of metal.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
I totally get why they're mandated, but the problem is that they still don't work reliably.
Zeke
Well-known member
Mine do.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
DC73
Well-known member
In that case, I wouldn't waste one minute or one cent on AFCIs. Just put GFCIs where they are needed for safety and forget you know anything about AFCIs.
DC
Dragfluid
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Grats?
Zeke
Well-known member
Come on, man. I told you that the complicated ceiling fan went south and tripped the AFCI. More than once. When I isolated the problem and fixed the fan with a kit, no more tripping.
In addition to that, we had record breaking storms in January as you did. I had water coming down the wall by my chimney and into a wall box that has a sconce on it. I have these lights on a dimmer and when I cranked up the voltage the breaker tripped. When all was dried out (and the roof fixed), the problem went away.
I don't care what anyone says about AFCI's, I like what they do.
Years ago, I lived in a Viet Nam era built house with AL wiring. As I was closing the garage door one evening I noticed some flashing coming through a wall plate. Had it not been dark, I wouldn't have seen it. There was an old fridge plugged into that receptacle and it drew significant current on start up.
I paused, got out a screwdriver and took a quick look. Sure enough, loose neutral had been arcing. Left the fridge unplugged while I was out but tightened the neutral before I left. Family was waiting in the car. The next week was spent pig tailing everything I could get to. Houses in that tract burned about one every year all do to the wiring. Had they had AFCI's, all those homes could have been saved from fire damage. Speculative, I know, but I stand my ground (no pun intended).
What does that mean?
American Locomotive
Well-known member
Sorry, but unless there was a physical arc, the breaker did not do its job. The fan controller likely had a noisy switching signal that tripped the breaker. My friends gaming computer trips his AFCI breaker just from the switching noise of the power transistors when he loads a game up.
That's a GFCI trip, and has absolutely nothing to do with the AFCI portion of the breaker.
Neither of your examples have anything to do with the AFCI portion of an AFCI breaker doing its job. I've seen multiple experiments with people purposely creating arcs/bad connections and the AFCI breaker just sits there and happily ignores it.
Dragfluid
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragfluid View Post
Grats?
What does that mean? -Zeke
It means congratulations on what you think is working.
Originally Posted by Dragfluid View Post
Grats?
What does that mean? -Zeke
It means congratulations on what you think is working.
Zeke
Well-known member
I'll just say this one last time. I live in an 87 YO house that had K & T through out most of the original house. I had my share of "buzzers" over the years. Finally about 4 years ago during a storm, and outside porch light got flooded and somehow sent the problem to a box downstream. When I switched off the light, the fault went away. The downstream J box where somehow a ground wire and a neutral got in touch with one another (this was a circuit extension off one of the old K & T lighting circuits — my fault for doing that — this circuit eventually went into conduit that made contact with the earth providing a false ground) was burned inside. From that point on the plan for a whole house rewire was put into place. Working with a licensed electrician, we together did the whole enchilada in a few stages. My wife even helped feed cable when we were both under the house of in the attic.
I really have to do the garage now. Don't have enough service and once again, the GEC is not proper even though most of the garage wiring is in conduit and has an EGC at least AFA the conduit itself is concerned. But, it all needs to be bonded as there is a breech somewhere. I may not be using the term false ground correctly, but there is a presence of some ground potential simply due to the conduit system running underground. No EGC inside.
I will set a subpanel and ground rod. A little off topic, but I may just install AFCI breakers for the garage and put a GFCI at the beginning of each circuit ( I have all this stuff left over). And run a green wire on the existing that will be kept in service.
I really have to do the garage now. Don't have enough service and once again, the GEC is not proper even though most of the garage wiring is in conduit and has an EGC at least AFA the conduit itself is concerned. But, it all needs to be bonded as there is a breech somewhere. I may not be using the term false ground correctly, but there is a presence of some ground potential simply due to the conduit system running underground. No EGC inside.
I will set a subpanel and ground rod. A little off topic, but I may just install AFCI breakers for the garage and put a GFCI at the beginning of each circuit ( I have all this stuff left over). And run a green wire on the existing that will be kept in service.
Zeke
Well-known member
No GFCI on my house lighting.
I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but it doesn't add up here. You don't know what was in that ceiling fan as they are rare and haven't been made for 30 years. But it involves a pot, large heat sink and a a transistor as well as a small control board. It was infinitely adjustable to nearly zero RPM. Nice aesthetics but no worky forever. So when the magic smoke appears, what do you want to call it.
All the replacement kits have been bought up all over the US. Now you just hack into it and use a 3 speed on pull chain just like every other cheap *** chicom fan.
On to the experiments. I think I understand that a short period arc does not trip the current generation breakers. I also think that the variation of a non controlled contrived arc simulation is not the real world
YMMV, but AFA I'm concerned, leave it there.
nomadskidoo
Well-known member
AFCI/GFCI Breakers Blow(Open circuit,BLOWS) New Home Elec Contractors says"Normal"before even Done.Delete this GJ.@10months & no responce from General Contractor/Electricial,contractor,@$45 each X20 &@$8,000 for Home,,,a Normal Home.So,I'll replace them as Normal Blowing!
ard
Well-known member
(And here you thought 'grats' was hard to understand...)