PhantomEB
Well-known member
I had Copper but then I went SS……
Air lines
- Thread starter grabeb
- Start date
tvand13
Well-known member
AL, might be a dumb question, but how did you get more than 90 degrees out of those elbows to keep all of the horizontal runs sloped on the wall? Any issues with leaks where the copper runs don't enter the fittings straight? Also, what is the function of the couplings on the short vertical sections?
I have a smaller set up, where I got the copper used and assembled. I just put screws in the wall and stretched it out horizontally so that all the runs go downhill. The 90s are still 90*
Why the change ?I had Copper but then I went SS……
ALinCarolina
Well-known member
I honestly don't remember why there are couplings on the vertical sections. It may have something to do with having to put that up by myself in sections. I agree in hindsight it doesn't make sense.
The slope is so gradual that there is very little stress on the elbows, no leaks.
I have done one shop in black iron that was 1 1/4 on the main and drops that were 3/4. The pipe was on hand so that’s why we used it.
I have done 2 in type L copper.
If your pocket book allows and you are good at sweating pipe I would use copper in a heartbeat
I have done 2 in type L copper.
If your pocket book allows and you are good at sweating pipe I would use copper in a heartbeat
Rigid pipe/tubing if there is nothing to attach coiled tubing to and will look so much better.
Copper tubing will not rust or flake. Plenty of fittings and anchoring methods exist for it. Soldering is easy. Looks great when finished. It won't sag or degrade inside.
Aside from the obvious material costs (one-time), your ability to fit up the different methods could be the biggest determinant.
Cry once, do it right the first time. Plan it so you can easily expand in the future if $$ or time is now limited.
(Easily expandable = not modifiying/removing what was already installed.)
Copper tubing will not rust or flake. Plenty of fittings and anchoring methods exist for it. Soldering is easy. Looks great when finished. It won't sag or degrade inside.
Aside from the obvious material costs (one-time), your ability to fit up the different methods could be the biggest determinant.
- Pitch the main header so it drains.
- Take each drop off the top of the header.
- Provide drip leg/drain valve at each drop.
- Particle filter at each drop. Regulator would also be ideal.
- Buy a refrigerant air dryer.
- Add automated drain valves to main tank and low end of header.
Cry once, do it right the first time. Plan it so you can easily expand in the future if $$ or time is now limited.
(Easily expandable = not modifiying/removing what was already installed.)
If you don't need much flow and the budget is tight, PVC air hose is a cheap option. PVC air hose is the cheap stuff that gets stiff when cold. I did a run on my garage so I could have an easy to access connector near one of my doors. It's fine for the air gun or inflating tires. As is just a 3/8 hose with 1/4" couplers of does restrict the impact wrench. With barbed T fittings additional drops can be added.
This is the most "red neck" option but it is cheep and sufficient if your needs are limited.
If I were doing a better garage (vs my tiny, over pack garage) I would probably do pex. The tube is cheap and easy to work with. I helped a friend do a 10,000 sqft auto shop with 1/2” pex. It worked nicely. We used 1/2” pex and noticed no for issues (typically only one tool needed air at any time).
This is the most "red neck" option but it is cheep and sufficient if your needs are limited.
If I were doing a better garage (vs my tiny, over pack garage) I would probably do pex. The tube is cheap and easy to work with. I helped a friend do a 10,000 sqft auto shop with 1/2” pex. It worked nicely. We used 1/2” pex and noticed no for issues (typically only one tool needed air at any time).
andyvh1959
Well-known member
If no one else mentioned it, use air brake tubing like installed on heavy truck air brake systems. Its pressure rated to constant 150 psi, burst rated to 500 psi. Comes in sizes from 1/4" OD up to 3/4" OD. Its easy to route and cut. Uses common compression fittings available at any ACE hardware or Lowes, or you can use push-ti connect fittings (like PEX or Shark fittings, just lower cost). Comes in a variety of colors. Is durable under heavy trucks in all weather conditions for millions of miles.
The 3/4" OD tubing has an equivalent ID of 0.566" which is plenty big enough for most any shop air demands. 5/8" OD tubing has an ID of 0.441", still plenty big enough for shop air demands. 1/2" air hose has an ID of 1/2" so either -10 or -12 hose is equivalent to maintain air flow. I'm installing 3/4" black nylon air brake tubing in my shop for multiple drops from my air compressor. But the initial line direct from the compressor to the nylon air brake tubing should be copper for four feet to dissipate any heat. The air temp just out of the compressor head could get up to 400F. Nylon air brake tubing is temperature rated to -85F up to 250F.
Any heavy truck supply outfit will have air brake tubing. Many large truck stops (Flying J, Loves, etc) may even carry it in their service bays. Or just shop Ebay or FBM.
The 3/4" OD tubing has an equivalent ID of 0.566" which is plenty big enough for most any shop air demands. 5/8" OD tubing has an ID of 0.441", still plenty big enough for shop air demands. 1/2" air hose has an ID of 1/2" so either -10 or -12 hose is equivalent to maintain air flow. I'm installing 3/4" black nylon air brake tubing in my shop for multiple drops from my air compressor. But the initial line direct from the compressor to the nylon air brake tubing should be copper for four feet to dissipate any heat. The air temp just out of the compressor head could get up to 400F. Nylon air brake tubing is temperature rated to -85F up to 250F.
Any heavy truck supply outfit will have air brake tubing. Many large truck stops (Flying J, Loves, etc) may even carry it in their service bays. Or just shop Ebay or FBM.
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johnre
Well-known member
Copper, 1/2" type L. I sort of wish I had done 3/4", but I'm not going to change it now.
And just because you can solder it, BTW, doesn't mean you always should do so. I put in these kind of unions at strategic points for servicing things like the combination regulator; do think through how you'll get things apart again if you have to do so:
And just because you can solder it, BTW, doesn't mean you always should do so. I put in these kind of unions at strategic points for servicing things like the combination regulator; do think through how you'll get things apart again if you have to do so:
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Not sure why I stopped getting notifications on this thread, but thanks for all the great responses.
I have a PEX ring clamp tool, so can do up to 3/4" with that. I like the idea of the simplicity of it, but as I think about it, I don't think I'll want to drill studs to hide it as I don't want to look at the pex. I'll have to think about this.
Copper, I really do like what I saw here on that setup and I'm using old cedar fencing for my upper walls, new barn tin for the lower 4' as a wainscot of sorts. The copper would compliment really well. My side walls are 12' so if I ran it up high, it would be out of the way, then just create drops in strategic areas. I will have to be very careful sweating the copper over the old cedar, but I can use a heat shield setup and should be fine. I do have some questions though....
- Will I need to slope it on the high sections, if I create a drop and put a drop leg that can be drained at all drops?
- I'm assuming 3/4" is better than 1/2"?
- I don't currently have a large compressor as my old 25 gallon compressor died. I keep looking but with the advent of battery tools I don't use my old air tools much anymore, so I've been getting along with my pancake and hotdog compressors. The plan in my new garage was to go with a nice two-stage compressor, but as I said I haven't had a need yet, so I haven't done and as I keep changing my layout of stuff a bit I don't know where I'd set a larger compressor. I have a loft I've considered. So, my question here is...any reason I can't connect just put quick disconnects and make a male to male hose to tap into the airline at any connection point? If and when I buy a bigger more stationary setup, I would probably make a more "permanent" connection. My main uses right now are blowing stuff off and airing up tires. I just get tired of moving the compressors around the shop.
- I can't think of my other questions, so I'll have to come back as I recall them!!
I have a PEX ring clamp tool, so can do up to 3/4" with that. I like the idea of the simplicity of it, but as I think about it, I don't think I'll want to drill studs to hide it as I don't want to look at the pex. I'll have to think about this.
Copper, I really do like what I saw here on that setup and I'm using old cedar fencing for my upper walls, new barn tin for the lower 4' as a wainscot of sorts. The copper would compliment really well. My side walls are 12' so if I ran it up high, it would be out of the way, then just create drops in strategic areas. I will have to be very careful sweating the copper over the old cedar, but I can use a heat shield setup and should be fine. I do have some questions though....
- Will I need to slope it on the high sections, if I create a drop and put a drop leg that can be drained at all drops?
- I'm assuming 3/4" is better than 1/2"?
- I don't currently have a large compressor as my old 25 gallon compressor died. I keep looking but with the advent of battery tools I don't use my old air tools much anymore, so I've been getting along with my pancake and hotdog compressors. The plan in my new garage was to go with a nice two-stage compressor, but as I said I haven't had a need yet, so I haven't done and as I keep changing my layout of stuff a bit I don't know where I'd set a larger compressor. I have a loft I've considered. So, my question here is...any reason I can't connect just put quick disconnects and make a male to male hose to tap into the airline at any connection point? If and when I buy a bigger more stationary setup, I would probably make a more "permanent" connection. My main uses right now are blowing stuff off and airing up tires. I just get tired of moving the compressors around the shop.
- I can't think of my other questions, so I'll have to come back as I recall them!!
M.Brane
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I did 3/4" & 1/2" L copper since there there was existing from a long abandoned solar hot water system to be repurposed.
Comp is in the corner of my 20'x20' near the main door. Regulator on the wall next to the door. Ran 3/4" the copper up the wall to the peak of the roof where it reduces to 1/2". Then drops for my hose reel in the center, and one at the bench. Drains at each low point.
First time sweating copper, and no leaks. Yet to get any moisture out of the drops.
Comp is in the corner of my 20'x20' near the main door. Regulator on the wall next to the door. Ran 3/4" the copper up the wall to the peak of the roof where it reduces to 1/2". Then drops for my hose reel in the center, and one at the bench. Drains at each low point.
First time sweating copper, and no leaks. Yet to get any moisture out of the drops.
I rarely see water either. I have some sticks of 1/2". I wonder if it would be best to use 3/4 for everything or if o could get by with 3/4 for the perimeter runs and then change to 1/2 for the drops. Seems like 1/2 would be easier to adapt fittings to. And being as I'm told the lines don't add to tank volume and pressure is what will matter I wonder what advantage the actual line size has.
I used L in mine , but that was in 2016 or so, the price on copper wasn't that bad. I also silver soldered most of the joints
Type M is ok for compressed air, 1/2" M is good for about 400 PSI i think
Type M is ok for compressed air, 1/2" M is good for about 400 PSI i think
Guess I'll have to compare the prices when I go. Looking online and it appears $6 more for 1/2 and $10 more for 3/4.
I'm sure I have some silver solder, but I also have some led (lead), I say led because that's how it's marked from whomever gave it to me and I always get a chuckle. I wonder if a mistake to use it for this. I keep trying to use it up when I know it won't be drank.
CraigStu
Well-known member
Looks like you have decided on copper but for others reading the thread I will ad something my brother and I learned in our 40-50 business shop way back in the 70s. If you use threaded pipe, put in a lot of those couplers that allow you to take it apart w/o spinning the pipe. We didn't know about them until near the end of the install. Got to where we needed to spin pipe for some reason and of course it would have tightened one end but loosened the other. We need to make a 90deg turn at the corner of the shop. Screwed the 90joint onto the pipe and had a choice. It needed to be about 45deg over tightened or 315deg loose. We also found later that we had a layout that was almost impossible to change or ad a drop to.
Jon h
Well-known member
I ran a Teseo air system down the one side of the shop 10 years ago. It’s been great. Nice leak free fittings, aluminum piping (no rust). Easily expandable while assembled. From what I remember the 12’ lengths of piping weren’t expensive but the fittings were……I highly recommend it.
Aluminium piping for compressed air and fluids distribution. | Teseo
Teseo is the worldwide leader in the production of aluminium modular systems for fluid distribution. Contact us now and ask for a free project design.
www.teseoair.com
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Ilikeike
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Copper is so easy,
minimal tools and mess to install,
easy to make changes, cut in new drops or fittings, and looks the best.
minimal tools and mess to install,
easy to make changes, cut in new drops or fittings, and looks the best.
BombShelter
Well-known member
Duraplus! Easy to put in, doesn't rust or corrode.
ipexna.com
Industrial Compressed Air Piping - Compressed Air Distribution System | IPEX USA LLC
Duraplus™ ABS Air-Line is designed and engineered for industrial compressed air applications
ipexna.com
AffableCurmudgeon
Well-known member
I like the look of emt on the walls. Would be cool to have 1/2 pex in 3/4 emt.
Until I purchase, nothing is decided and it might be 6hrs or 6months before I get to it. I just have to have a pretty solid plan in my head so I can think abut it while out there and figure out what might be best. I was pretty solid on the threaded pipe before I built the garage and even until fairly recently. After seeing the install posted, I do think it would look really good with the aged cedar fence. AND, as someone else just posted it is super easy to work with. Considering I'll have a lot of pipe 12' up in the air, I could lay out the copper, sweat a bulk of the connections on the ground, then lift into place. With threaded, weight becomes a big issue to contend with during install.
The unions on the threaded would be a big must! Great tip!!
That stuff is interesting. I tried glancing at their site, but don't have time right now to delve heavily into it. Looks like some of the fittings aren't necessarily fixed in place and can be moved?
CraigStu
Well-known member
I have no idea on $ but think the copper will be great. W/ copper water pipe I had problems soldering joints after the composition of solder and flux was changed. But I think you can pretty easily develope a technique w/ a bit of practice and then it will quick and easy from then on.
nadogail
Well-known member
To the very best of my knowledge 50/50 Solder is acceptable for Compressed Air Pipes.
It is prohibited for Potable Water lines.
I buy my Acid Flux and 50-50 Solder from an Industrial Hardware supply store.
It is prohibited for Potable Water lines.
I buy my Acid Flux and 50-50 Solder from an Industrial Hardware supply store.
Is 50/50 cheaper than silver or whatever one would buy for potable water? I always just buy from box store, whatever is rated for that. No clue if I still have any or not, been a few years since I've had to sweat a pipe, but rarely have an issue.
nadogail
Well-known member
Big Box Stores around here don’t sell 50-50 Solder, everything is that Lead Free stuff.
That's why I ask. It's it cheaper or better for this?
scooby074
Well-known member
How does the proce compare to copper or aluminum? That stuff looks great.Duraplus! Easy to put in, doesn't rust or corrode.
Industrial Compressed Air Piping - Compressed Air Distribution System | IPEX USA LLC
Duraplus™ ABS Air-Line is designed and engineered for industrial compressed air applications
Edit: About $3.30USD/ft for 3/4. Plus glue etc.
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Jon h
Well-known member
They can be moved and reused else where but you would have to get buy a plug for the hole you left behind. You can tap into the piping at any point with a drill bit and and a fitting.
Jon h.
Beerhippie
Well-known member
I actually really like that idea! Of course, EMT is nearly as expensive as copper unless you have a good source of salvaged stuff. You'd have to use sweeps for all corners and Ts would be a PITA.
As for the solder for copper, I ran hundreds of feet (yards) of copper for our air and CO2 lines at the brewery. My boss was a cheap SOB, and had me use plumbing solder--95/5 tin/antimony--and you know what" it worked just fine! My boss also had some strange ideas, so we ran our primary regulator for the CO2 at 300 psi and stepped down with secondary regs at POU. I never had a line fail. Now that that boss is gone, our primaries are at 125 and I now run PEX when I need new lines--not only much cheaper, but a lot faster to hang and available in several colors for color-coding the lines. Yeah, it is awful ugly compared to nicely hung copper.... I've yet to have a PEX line at 125 psi fail on me.
There has to be nearly a mile of copper hung in the brewery....
Notgrownup
Well-known member
I used rapid aid behind my walls.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
I hate M copper for water lines due to pin holing from acidic water but for air lines I would be perfectly fine with it. I personally don't because I have Tee pullers and expanders to eliminate Tees and couplings, which work much better with L than M but if I was buying those fittings I would use M for airlines.
nadogail
Well-known member
The compressed air distribution in my personal shop is a Harbor Freight hose run through the Attic resting on the Ceiling Joists.
My personal shop is a two car residential garage, 19 feet wide.
I plumbed compressed air in Copper at my last place of employment.
My personal shop is a two car residential garage, 19 feet wide.
I plumbed compressed air in Copper at my last place of employment.
engineer2
Well-known member
Pipe drop example.
PhantomEB
Well-known member
Always seemed to have a leak somewhere in my lines. Swedgelok is way easier to deal with and Change up later if need be.
i also no longer wanted anything over my head in the garage. Hell I may be moving the fan up to more central of the work shop that vehicles don’t move up into For an more open work area.
i also no longer wanted anything over my head in the garage. Hell I may be moving the fan up to more central of the work shop that vehicles don’t move up into For an more open work area.
djjsr
Well-known member
You can use type M copper. It's cheaper and will handle the pressure from any typical garage compressor.
Examples -
3/4" soft 346 psi @ 150 degrees.
3/4" rigid 701 psi.
1/2" soft 420 psi.
1/2" rigid 850 psi.
reference https://copper.org/
Examples -
3/4" soft 346 psi @ 150 degrees.
3/4" rigid 701 psi.
1/2" soft 420 psi.
1/2" rigid 850 psi.
reference https://copper.org/