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AlchemyMetalworks' Tool Steel Test Thread

SledgeFix

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Perhaps a list of what you still need, when the packages start arriving and you build up the samples?

Let's call them samples, it breaks my heart otherwise.

I had a decent pile of TrueCraft stuff I just gave away, too. Older stuff that looked like it had seen a lot of action, I was curious how it'd stack up. Maybe I have a few rolling around yet, I'll check when it's not so miserable outside.

Fantastic endeavor, anyway. If you were close I'd offer help (not sure how, but maybe I could hold the bolt while you turned the socket ;)). This looks good enough to be sticky'd just for the raw data even if it's inconclusive.
 
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MaximRecoil

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I'm surprised there is not even more interest in this. I'd love to know if the structure of top brands is superior of if we're paying for marketing.

I think that with the tool truck brands, e.g., Snap-on, much of what you are paying for is nothing at all. In other words, the cost of the tools is far higher than what it needs to be for them to make a reasonable profit. I've read that certain people can get 50%-off discounts from Snap-on, so that tells me that their prices are at least twice as high as they need to be in order to turn a reasonable profit (because I highly doubt they are selling to anyone at a loss or even at a no-profit-margin price point).

Snap-on's factory is highly automated, and they turn out tools at a high rate (mass production). This usually means low or at least reasonable prices. However, Snap-on and other tool truck companies have a business model that allows them to sell at high prices, and tools aren't the only field this works in. Saladmaster for example sells sets of pots and pans for $3700 that cost them $400 to manufacture, as revealed in a 1998 settlement agreement. The same applies to other "direct marketing" companies, such as Cutco, and Kirby & Rainbow vacuum cleaners. Products like this probably wouldn't survive in stores without a serious price reduction. Add direct marketing and some convenient financing options, and it is a whole new ballgame though.

A Snap-on combination wrench for example, is made like most any other wrench. They start with some steel round bar and cut it into billets. The billets pass through an induction heater and then they are drop-forged into the rough shape of a wrench. The raw forging is cleaned up on a belt sander, the markings are pressed in, the box and open end are drilled and broached, the wrench is polished in a tumbler with ceramic media, and then it is heat treated, cleaned, and chromed. I don't believe that this costs them four or more times what other companies can do it for.

However, more power to them. I'm in favor of capitalism. I'd like to have some Snap-on tools, because they are among the best. I'd never buy a full set of anything from them though, unless I was rich.

I know Snap-on, Mac, Matco, etc., aren't necessary, even for professionals, because I've hung out in too many garages. I was in the biggest and most popular garage in town today (8 bays, several full-time mechanics, has been in business for ages) and the only thing Snap-on I saw there was a small toolbox. There was also a slightly larger Mac toolbox, and the largest toolbox in that bay was a Craftsman (I didn't check out the other bays). They were all old, beat up, and well used; all of them still doing their job fine. The actual tools I saw being used were a random mixture of Craftsman, local auto parts store brands, and brands I'd never heard of (everything looked very well used; not recently purchased by any means). I see the same thing at every independent garage I've ever been in around here. From what I can tell; most any hand tool typically works, works well, and works for a long time (assuming you're not buying absolute junk like from a Fingerhut catalog or a dollar store).

And more on topic, I am extremely interested in these steel tests, and I hope the project doesn't fizzle out.
 
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demographic

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I would be very interested indeed to see the results of this testing, just as I was to see this that I think Monte posted on the Old World Tool thread, the words are in German but its not rocket science to work out that it gives dimensions for the open end and ring end, torque before they are damaged at the open end and ring end the maximum torque any get is 240Nm and perhaps more importantly... Price....
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That testing kind of reminds me of the SHARP motorcycle helmet testing, which showed that price doesn't automatically indicate an increase in protection and several of the cheapo (£100 or thereabouts) helmets significantly outperform some of the very expensive ones.
 
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MaximRecoil

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Chinese steel might surprise you. For example, in the early '90s Chinese M1911A1 clones from Norinco showed up here in North America. They were dirt cheap and not pretty (very "rough around the edges" in terms of fit and finish), but people soon discovered that they were reliable and very rugged. The steel they used, as it turned out, was very high quality. In fact, many gunsmiths complained that the steel was so hard that it wore their machining tools down very quickly:

I'm not smart enough about such matters to make a statement, however, my smith will make milling cuts on Norincos only if you buy him the cutter head. (link)

The gun quickly became popular as a base for highly customized guns, including competition "race guns", because it had the goods where it counted; i.e., all forged and machined-from-barstock parts, and very high quality steel:

Here is one of the best writeups on the topic I have read, claimed to be from an engineer in Ottawa:

All right, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.

Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)

In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.

Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).

*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.

Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!

I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow

Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!

5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.

All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts. (link)

Now whether or not this applies to Chinese wrenches and such, who knows? However, the Chinese can certainly produce quality steel if they want to, and still sell at a low price.
 
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MaximRecoil

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I would be very interested indeed to see the results of this testing, just as I was to see this that I think Monte posted on the Old World Tool thread, the words are in German but its not rocket science to work out that it gives dimensions for the open end and ring end, torque before they are damaged at the open end and ring end the maximum torque any get is 240Nm and perhaps more importantly... Price....

That testing kind of reminds me of the SHARP motorcycle helmet testing, which showed that price doesn't automatically indicate an increase in protection and several of the cheapo (£100 or thereabouts) helmets significantly outperform some of the very expensive ones.

I'd love to read that whole article; I wish it was translated. However, I'm not sure how much real-world relevance it has. If they were breaker bars, it would be relevant, but when is the last time you saw someone muscle a 13mm wrench to the point that it bent or cracked? The bolt or nut would normally fail (round off the head or twist/break the shaft) before such a wrench will, regardless of who made it (assuming the wrench isn't absolute junk), meaning that even the "weaker" ones according to that test are still overbuilt for normal use.

I think a more relevant test would be resistance to wear and tear from everyday use; i.e., maybe set up a machine that rapidly turns bolts back and forth under resistance for an extended period of time, and then measure the wear on the bolt gripping surfaces of the wrench. Also, a check of tolerances / dimensions would be good too; i.e., how well does the wrench actually fit a bolt that it is designed to fit?
 

diesel research

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I'm not sure how much real-world relevance it has. If they were breaker bars, it would be relevant, but when is the last time you saw someone muscle a 13mm wrench to the point that it bent or cracked? The bolt or nut would normally fail (round off the head or twist/break the shaft) before such a wrench will, regardless of who made it (assuming the wrench isn't absolute junk), meaning that even the "weaker" ones according to that test are still overbuilt for normal use.

Last week. While it wasn't a "high torque capacity 13mm wrench" it was a top of the line 12mm combo wrench. Ended up looking somewhat like a moon wrench. Did have slight permanent deformation, not just spring back. Coworker wants to try to warranty it out, but tool truck never shows up at 2am....

They (box ends) don't typically break off too often, but open ends do crack or break. Have saw a few cracked box ends. Possibly used as a back up wrench against an impact.

_____________________
In a previous job, our company sold scrap steel directly to china. We would load the barges, and 60million pounds at a time would head off to china. US mills weren't buying. I remarked at what a vicious cycle it was. We sell them steel, they make stuff to sell us (including the high-manganese hammers involved in shredding operations), it hits the end of useable life, and we sell it to them again.
 
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aidank

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I think a more relevant test would be resistance to wear and tear from everyday use; i.e., maybe set up a machine that rapidly turns bolts back and forth under resistance for an extended period of time, and then measure the wear on the bolt gripping surfaces of the wrench. Also, a check of tolerances / dimensions would be good too; i.e., how well does the wrench actually fit a bolt that it is designed to fit?

I agress a fatigue test would be more relevant, torque the wrench to 200Nm and calculate cycles to failure, be that until either shaft breaks or wrench slips
 

Bull

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I would advice treading carefully when it comes to criticizing the OP's methods, since he is investing his own time and energy to do this.

I'm not suggesting that you need to agree with them, but I am suggesting that this thread is going to be a mess if people are arguing about methodology.

Take the test for what it is. Either you will find it useful or you wont, but the original idea was Alchemy's and so it's going to be done his way.
 

oldtools

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I would be very interested indeed to see the results of this testing, just as I was to see this that I think Monte posted on the Old World Tool thread, the words are in German but its not rocket science to work out that it gives dimensions for the open end and ring end, torque before they are damaged at the open end and ring end the maximum torque any get is 240Nm and perhaps more importantly... Price....

Can someone translate that article. Is wrench 4 made in India. It did very well in the test (as good as Snap On).
 
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Plombob

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Alchemy - I have tools to send if you're still up for the test. I am interested to see how a bunch of old Plombs fare next to their modern equivalent. I trust your judgment on methods and process.
 

honcho

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I applaud AlchemyMetalwork's test proposal. Like the German test showed with the combination wrenches, sometimes the most expensive isn't the best (as in Snap-On's performance) and country of origin isn't everything either.

Having been involved in technical testing of military equipment. May I suggest preparing a test plan. I'd be happy to help structure the plan so that the test hopefully measures desirable attributes for a chosen tool in a common size to all test articles. It would be also be interesting (but not necessarily practical) to test something like SnapOn or Craftsman sockets produced over the years). Unfortunately, the stresses that different size tools and types of tools (8mm versus 36mm sockets and wrenches, impact rated tools, 10" 3/8 breaker bar vs 24" 3/4" breaker bar, etc...) make it dern near impossible design a test that will make everyone happy.

The German magazine test is probably a good place to get some ideas and build upon with the metallurgical tests mentioned.

Oh, there's no need for the tester to have a degree in metallurgy or materials science. There is a need for the tester to work with a sound methodology in an unbiased way. Experts are most useful in planning the tests and evaluating the results. Having spent millions of your tax dollars on pre-testing conferences and post-testing scoring, unless you're just measuring one very simple quantifiable thing, there will be people who will argue until their blue in the face about the test and its results. When money and reputations are on the line, they'll argue forever and hire lawyers and lobby politicians to sway the results.

May the force be with you!
 
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