Americans will do ANYTHING to avoid the metric system

[kythri]

There are 7.2 BILLION potential consumers outside of the US versus our 327 MILLION domestic customer base. While our antiquated units of measurement don't prevent people from buying our products, it does lessen the demand. So... increased sales and possibly more jobs?

If "being obtuse" means calling you on your nonsense claim, than perhaps?

You made the claim, now back it up. What product, currently produced under our "antiquated units of measurement" might see increased demand if it converted to metric?

Stop shifting the goalposts.

 

[mikehaugen]

It is equally inherently easy. You don't have to "work with fractions every second of your life" to grasp elementary school arithmetic. So, yeah, mental midget still applies.

I guess you really are as arrogant as you first sounded...

And it isn't really that easy. If fractions weren't automatically simplified, then maybe. Wrenches for the most part are stepped by 1/16th, so what's on size bigger than 1/4? Well 5/16 of cour! Had we asked what's one size bigger than 4/16 then maybe it would be more obvious. Drill bits are usually stepped by 1/64, so what is one size bigger than 1/4? Well of course it must be 17/64!

In metric drill bits often are stepped by 0.1, so what is bigger than 6.1mm? Well of course it's 6.2mm!

You're right... metric really isn't any easier to make simple calculations.

I'm a mechanic and deal in 1/16ths all of the time so I pretty much have them memori


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[mikehaugen]

Not sure why it cut off my last post, but anyway, I'm not a machinist so I don't deal with 64th often enough to memorize them so it takes me a little longer to add them.

For now I'll just bow down to your superior intellect... until 1/4 starts being expressed as 4/16 I'll stand my ground that metric is easier to work with.

Now I'll just go back to my corner with the rest of the mental midgets.

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[American Locomotive]

If you can base 10, you can binary.

1 2 4 8 16 occasionally 32, rarely 64. You're not going to see too many /128 or greater measurements.

It is equally inherently easy. You don't have to "work with fractions every second of your life" to grasp elementary school arithmetic. So, yeah, mental midget still applies.

It's not equally as easy. It's literally not. Take my example I posted earlier. For someone to do the math without any memorized calculations or fractions, they would have to do the following major steps:

1) Multiply 11 and 16 by 4 to get them into 64ths
2) Subtract 44/64 from 41/64. Mentally this means you need steal 1 from "152", add it to the 41/64. Remember that its now 105/64, then subtract 44 from 105 to get 61.
3) Remember that the 152 is now 151, subtract the 112 from that to yield 39
4) Put it all together and now you have 39 61/64

Here's the same operation in standard metric notation:
1) Subtract 2862.3 from 3862.4 from right to left.

Base 10 math isn't something inherently metric either. We could easily do the same calculations with decimal inches or feet, but we use fractions instead.

No one is saying that the math involved is particularly complex - it's not. Fractions ARE elementary school stuff. But the computing and dealing with fractions (especially ones with large bases) in your head are a huge hassle. I aced all of my college calculus courses, and I still despise working with fractions. You can keep screaming all you want that it's "binary!", but binary addition and subtraction is only quick and easy if you keep it in binary notation. The moment you start working with base 10 fractions, all of that goes out the window. My tape measure doesn't read "10010101 Inches", does yours?

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

The classic in Tips of the Trade for equal spacings, in a certain length, use metric.

 

[fasteddie]

Provide an example of a product that supports your supposition that, as it currently utilizes Imperial measurements, would see an increased demand were it to convert to Metric measurements.

Rulers?

 

[kythri]

Rulers?

Nice.

 

[Hagatronics]

Also us brits like to be stubborn and stick to certain imperial units, but can you imagine trying to change an entire countries road signs over from miles to kilometres, would takes decades probably and then they would be a lot messed up, and you can still find mile stones about the place that are hundreds of years old.

Sweden changed the side of the road they drive on overnight in 1967!

 

[Vvmvbb]

1. Standards result in efficiencies. That’s their point. We get to buy twice as many tools in the USA because we haven’t caught up to the standard yet, as an example of an inefficiency we’ll eliminate.

2. USA is already metric. Engineering, Science, Medicine, Military, Modern Manufacturing, all mainly metric. Just got to work through some remaining legacies. That takes a while in the USA because we’re all so free to say f*ck it. One of our lovely quirks we all enjoy.

 

[Hagatronics]

Provide an example of a product that supports your supposition that, as it currently utilizes Imperial measurements, would see an increased demand were it to convert to Metric measurements.

- Steel
- washing machines. Why use 600mm when it a washing machine can be a new unit of measurement?
- building products such as manmade boards and sheet products

I would say automotive but that already converted to metric for the reasons of export and global compatibility.

 

[kythri]

- Steel
- washing machines. Why use 600mm when it a washing machine can be a new unit of measurement?
- building products such as manmade boards and sheet products

I would say automotive but that already converted to metric for the reasons of export and global compatibility.

Are you seriously claiming that people buy less steel, less washing machines and less building materials because they're manufactured and sized in Imperial over Metric?

And are you seriously claiming that, had domestic automobiles not standardized on metric fasteners and components, people would have bought less of them?

I really need to find my hip waders.

"Golly, I sure as shootin' would have built me a house, and installed a washing machine in it, if only the metric system had become universally accepted!"

 

[Mr. T]

It wasn't specifically directed to anyone The whinging about the US not converting to metric is dumb. The US has converted where it needs to. If there was a good reason (i.e. an incentive) for the rest of the stuff to be converted, we would, but there isn't.

It’s more of a disincentive for the industries that have held on to the inch. They don’t change because it would cost money. Not because of some altruistic love of a system of measurement.

The industries which have switched over (which is most but with some notable exceptions) did so because it either saved them money or made them more.

The metric system makes more sense to more people and is vastly easier to use. I would like to see the change for those reasons.

Also, you’re a ****. I think in metric that’s still a ****.

 

[American Locomotive]

Are you seriously claiming that people buy less steel, less washing machines and less building materials because they're manufactured and sized in Imperial over Metric?

There is a world beyond the United States. In Europe, they have metric sized sheet stock, metric sized appliances and metric automobiles. If we made those in metric sizes, those markets would me more available to us.

We build cars in metric for standardization with the rest of the world. We can easily and readily share parts and platforms between countries.

 

[Notgrownup]

I’m 54 and was born In Canada, in grade school They changed from Imperial to Metric and everyone thought the world would end. I have been in the states for 30 years now and still understand both system very easily but I think the Metric is way simpler and easier.

 

[Hagatronics]

Are you seriously claiming that people buy less steel, less washing machines and less building materials because they're manufactured and sized in Imperial over Metric?

And are you seriously claiming that, had domestic automobiles not standardized on metric fasteners and components, people would have bought less of them?

So I started this thread (read the first post) as there was a news article about a sink-hole in a highway - the size of the hole was measured in washing machines! This seemed a pretty arbitrary unit of measurement and seemed like a good analogy for the rest of the imperial system. (12 inches in a foot, 3 feet to a yard, 16 ounces in a pound, and lets not even start with the miles, furlongs and all the other arbitrary ways to measure things like elevation in 100ths of a foot but length in feet-inches).

The thread then devolved and people like you got offended.

So putting the jokes about washing machines aside, yes I think less American steel is sold overseas then would be otherwise. Construction jobs and manufacturing specify material requirements in millimeters (except the USA).

I'll give you an example. There is a fantastic little product called Speed Bleeder (one way valve for brake calipers) made in the USA. Because the manufacturer can't get access to metric bar stock in the US they sell 1/4" bleeders with an M6 thread (3/8" with M10 etc). I love that product but damned if I'm going to buy it. I'm not carrying a 1/4" wrench to work on my car which is 100% metric. So I bought an inferior version in metric from a asian supplier.

US built cars a made in metric because of global manufacturing compatibility.

So I don't think more or less cars or washing machines would be sold based on the size of the fasteners. But I 100% believe that construction materials need to be made in dimensions that people want to buy.

"Golly, I sure as shootin' would have built me a house, and installed a washing machine in it, if only the metric system had become universally accepted!"

They are building them, just not with products made in the USA.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

The change over in construction would be difficult. North America has been building frame houses on the 16" and 24" stud spacing since the 1830s. Though I'm not sure but I think the framing square dates from around then. Unlike the rest of the world, stick framing on 16" centers is universal.

 

[gtae07]

Oh, snap. I guess they didn't adapt after all?

A huge proportion of Approved hardware, stock sizes (for sheet aluminum, etc.), fasteners, fittings, tubing, etc. are all in inches. But everyone works in decimal inches now (no building airplanes in feet and inches, or fractions... though common decimal sizes tend to be the fractional equivalents).

Pilots still work in feet, knots, and nautical miles.



It’s funny, I prefer US units for design/construction, cooking, and building my airplane, but metric for space stuff (my undergrad specialty was orbital mechanics) and certain physics problems.

 

[Hagatronics]

And just a reminder
There’s two kinds of countries
Those that use the metric system
And
Those that have put men on the moon

FYI NASA's 2024 Moon Mission project is being run in metric. Things change, maybe it's time to move forward.

 

[mudflap]

The rest of the world can have their metriks... and their .3048 long hotdogs. MERICA....and me will have chili, cheese, and onion on our footlongs..

 

[davethorik]

I'll give you an example. There is a fantastic little product called Speed Bleeder (one way valve for brake calipers) made in the USA. Because the manufacturer can't get access to metric bar stock in the US they sell 1/4" bleeders with an M6 thread (3/8" with M10 etc). I love that product but damned if I'm going to buy it. I'm not carrying a 1/4" wrench to work on my car which is 100% metric. So I bought an inferior version in metric from a asian supplier.

I just googled "metric bar stock" and got a number of results for places that sell metric bar. It's probably cheaper to buy inch size, which is why they'd make turds like that. I remember my first car, 89 Buick lesabre. Damn car was half metric and half standard. Super annoying, I can understand why you'd be annoyed.

 

[MikeF2316]

Lots of errors are made during conversions from one system to the other. And even worse, non conversions when quantities are given in one system's units and are assumed to be in the other.

NASA lost a weather probe due to the former, and the famed Gimli Glider is an example of the latter.

And you get stuff like people's height being given as 4' 12". 152 cm = 59.84" = 4' 11.84" which rounds off to 4' 12"!

 

[kythri]

The thread then devolved and people like you got offended.

I'm not offended. Just tired of seeing the same tired arguments being made for why we should convert. Like I said, It's happening. It started happening many years ago, and many more in the future, we'll undoubtedly abandon the Imperial system, organically.

They are building them, just not with products made in the USA.

Given the caterwauling and gnashing of teeth out of sectors of our economy due to recent actions of our government, I simply say: nonsense.

The idea that there would be measurable increases in the exports of those goods, if only the silly Americans would give up their fractions is poppycock.

 

[coldh2o]

The rest of the world can have their metriks... and their .3048 long hotdogs. MERICA....and me will have chili, cheese, and onion on our footlongs..

'Murica...you can have my yardstick when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

 

[jasonphelps]

Yeah, first we go metric, then we start driving on the wrong side of the road. I think not.

 

[paranoid56]

**** the metric system and he horse it rode in on. They copy everything else, why not our system of measurement?

because the metric system is superior in every way lol

 

[pstemari]

Sigh. If all your doing is measuring dimensions, there's no advantage to one measuring system over the other. Threads are actually a bit easier in inches than they are in metric, because TPI works better with screw cutting lathes then distance between threads. When using metric, or more specifically SI, units becomes important Is when you're doing dynamic calculations involving forces, densities, power, energy, and other derived units.

Unfortunately, metric units aren't nearly as standardized as the PR claims made for them. The discrepancies between ISO, DIN, and JIS fastener standards is pretty typical. You've also got competing units for energy, temperature, and three complete sets of electrical units, four if you count Gaussian units.

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[Aaron_W]

The BWG isn't inch standard, nor does it follow any mathematical construct. It's completely arbitrary based on drawing operations for steel wire. Eventually the gauges were defined by numbers for standardization purposes, but they're just as arbitrary in inches as they are in metric. You could easily define a system rooted in metric numbers, and then label it something like size "A, B, C, D" or whatever to easily remember.

I never said it was inch based, I said it wasn't metric.

Sure the largely metric medical industry could create a new metric standard, but they chose to continue using an arbitrary and "obsolete" standard that works because why fix what isn't broken.


That is the thing so many seem to fail to grasp, the items in the US, UK, Canada and elsewhere that "cling" to their archaic systems of measurement do so because the cost of changing is seen as not being worth that cost.

Lumber measurements are admittedly a mess, but changing them to metric would only lead to even more confusion (millions if not billions of structures already exist using the old standards) and building materials are heavily skewed towards the domestic market where the majority of users are familiar with the existing system.

Automobiles on the other hand have a metric export market to consider and an automotive platform typically has a life span of a decade or so. Not a big deal to switch to metric when the platform is replaced, and there are significant benefits (that world wide market) to doing so. As we have seen, most of the US auto industry has gone to metric.

Changing the billions of highway signs in the US would cost many billions if not trillions of dollars, so we stick with our MPH and miles to X signs. I suppose we could nickle and dime the change so as you drive down the highway you pass a sign for 65mph, and then a bit later pass one for 105kmh. Probably a bad idea as the biggest issue seem to be conversion, there is usually little issue if you stay within one system or the other.

 

[Aaron_W]

I'll give you an example. There is a fantastic little product called Speed Bleeder (one way valve for brake calipers) made in the USA. Because the manufacturer can't get access to metric bar stock in the US they sell 1/4" bleeders with an M6 thread (3/8" with M10 etc). I love that product but damned if I'm going to buy it. I'm not carrying a 1/4" wrench to work on my car which is 100% metric. So I bought an inferior version in metric from a asian supplier.

US built cars a made in metric because of global manufacturing compatibility.

So I don't think more or less cars or washing machines would be sold based on the size of the fasteners. But I 100% believe that construction materials need to be made in dimensions that people want to buy.



They are building them, just not with products made in the USA.

If only they made a machine that could make fasteners of any size... oh wait, they do it is called a lathe.

There has to be another reason for this oddity, there is no way they are mixing metric and SAE because they can't get metric bar stock. They are having it threaded to a metric standard, they are choosing not to have the rest of it cut to fit a metric size wrench.

I just had a look, I can go online and order hex bar stock in brass, steel, and stainless in metric sizes from 5mm to 50mm.

 

[garandman]

My business included selling solid modeling software to manufacturers for product design.

With rare exceptions, all new consumer products, medical products, and most manufacturing equipment was designed in Metric.

 

[Sliding T-Handle]

I don’t have a choice; My Employer is Japanese Owned. 100% Metric; its not .002” its 0.05mm; not .004” its 0.1mm. Lol


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[anndel]

For woodworking I'm used to feet and inches. For auto work, metric.

 

[GTO]

zfg........

 

[American Locomotive]

If only they made a machine that could make fasteners of any size... oh wait, they do it is called a lathe.

There has to be another reason for this oddity, there is no way they are mixing metric and SAE because they can't get metric bar stock. They are having it threaded to a metric standard, they are choosing not to have the rest of it cut to fit a metric size wrench.

I just had a look, I can go online and order hex bar stock in brass, steel, and stainless in metric sizes from 5mm to 50mm.

You need to look at it from a manufacturing perspective. It's easy to cut threads, it's not easy to mill a hex. It's also easy to buy whatever stock you want in small quantities. But, you may have a hard time ordering a bundle of 12 foot bars of metric hex stock here in the U.S.

A part like that speed bleeder can easily be made on something like a modern CNC Swiss-Type lathe. Cutting threads and profiling the part shape can be done extremely fast. However milling a 6 sided hex takes a long time. It'd probably double the cycle time to make that part.

Well if you start out with hex bar stock of the right size, you don't have to mill the hex. You can quickly turn the profile, cut the threads and then the part is done. It saves a lot of time, and you need less tools inside the machine. Less tools means less cost, less time, more production and fewer mistakes.

Some modern CNC lathes can do a quite crazy process called polygon turning, which would allow you to rapidly "turn" a hex into a part. However not every CNC lathe supports it, the polygon turning attachments are typically very expensive, and they need expensive custom tooling.

 

[Aaron_W]

You need to look at it from a manufacturing perspective. It's easy to cut threads, it's not easy to mill a hex. It's also easy to buy whatever stock you want in small quantities. But, you may have a hard time ordering a bundle of 12 foot bars of metric hex stock here in the U.S.

A part like that speed bleeder can easily be made on something like a modern CNC Swiss-Type lathe. Cutting threads and profiling the part shape can be done extremely fast. However milling a 6 sided hex takes a long time. It'd probably double the cycle time to make that part.

Well if you start out with hex bar stock of the right size, you don't have to mill the hex. You can quickly turn the profile, cut the threads and then the part is done. It saves a lot of time, and you need less tools inside the machine. Less tools means less cost, less time, more production and fewer mistakes.

Some modern CNC lathes can do a quite crazy process called polygon turning, which would allow you to rapidly "turn" a hex into a part. However not every CNC lathe supports it, the polygon turning attachments are typically very expensive, and they need expensive custom tooling.

Milling a hex is no more difficult than threading. It is an added step which adds cost, but it isn't difficult.

First thing that comes up when googling metric hex bar stock

Metric Metal.com


Next excuse for cutting corners

 

[Willie Makeit]

I'll give you an example. There is a fantastic little product called Speed Bleeder (one way valve for brake calipers) made in the USA. Because the manufacturer can't get access to metric bar stock in the US they sell 1/4" bleeders with an M6 thread (3/8" with M10 etc).

lol ... who the hell told you that metric bar stock isn't available in the U.S.?

when australia lands a man on the moon and returns him safely to earth then we might listen to you about the superiority of your measuring system.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

The moon landing, what it's now, half a century ago ? At that time , I think Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and India were still imperial.

 

[Willie Makeit]

The moon landing, what it's now, half a century ago ? At that time , I think Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and India were still imperial.

and none of the countries listed have yet to accomplish what the U.S. did half a century ago with slide rules and #2 pencils ... and the imperial system.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

If you look at the Nasa's engineering staff, it was recruited from the cancelled Avero Arrow staff.

 

[Willie Makeit]

If you look at the Nasa's engineering staff, it was recruited from the cancelled Avero Arrow staff.

I'm part of the current NASA engineering staff.

NASA recruited (and still does) engineers from all disciplines and from everywhere, the cotton fields of North Alabama to the battlefields of Germany to the oil fields of Texas. Never met a current NASA engineer from Canada though, but the Avro group you are referencing was approx 25 people ... NASA's engineering staff consisted of a heckuva lot more than 25 folks.

There was no one group that can claim to be the reason for mission success. But they all used the imperial system and for the most part still do.

p.s. it's Avro Arrow

 

[American Locomotive]

Milling a hex is no more difficult than threading. It is an added step which adds cost, but it isn't difficult.

First thing that comes up when googling metric hex bar stock

Metric Metal.com


Next excuse for cutting corners

Where did I say it was difficult? I said it takes time and adds complexity. You have to stop the spindle, index the part 6 times (3 if you pinch mill) which takes an enormous amount of time. Any time you have to start and stop a spindle it really eats your cycle time. That drives up your per part cost, especially since you now have additional tools to monitor and change out inside the machine.

Just because you can get metric hex bar stock, doesn't mean you can get it in the length, quantity or price you need.

Manufacturing in the U.S. competitively is very difficult. You need to minimize your machine cycle times to drive per part costs down low, maximize uptime and reduce your material costs.

Using round stock means more material waste (since more will have to be removed), lower cycle times, higher tooling costs and a host of other issues.

The metric bar stock you can get in the U.S. may be in short 3m bundles , which increases waste (since the machine has a minimum length of bar it can handle, the shorter your bars are, the more percentage of the bar is wasted). It may cost more than comparable SAE bar stock, not be readily stocked and could be a lower grade.