Anchor choices after failure

[Kaizen]

I'm having decision paralysis and need your help. I had another thread detailing my anchor issues on my new lift. I have to replace 3 3/4"x4.5" wedge anchors. The manufacterer instructed to torque to 150ft pounds. Now they are useless and no help. I get the feeling Greg Smith tech support are sales people with not much physical knowledge. I got the anchors out but the wedges are still in the holes. These are the options that I have. Perhaps i'm missing more?

A. Buy a 7/8 inch wedge anchor, drill a 7/8 inch hole but this time all the way through the floor! I'd have to buy the 50 dollar bit and maybe 30 bucks in anchors. This will torque to over the 150 pounds on the instructions.

B. Use Hilti 3/4 inch anchors with epoxy that i picked up. Due to their special applicator it cost me 300 bucks for what i need. I still need to buy the 7/8 inch bit per their instructions. But this can only torque to 110.

I suppose i could try the cheaper method of the anchor and if its an issue just pound it through and use the epoxy. I'm getting hung up on the torque amounts. I feel if i don't get that magic number and later it pulls out i'll be kicking myself.

 

[Falcon67]

I used 3/4 wedge but the torque was only 90 ft/lbs. At any rate, if any of mine end up pulling I would go back with nothing less than epoxy. $300 - no do-over, absolute minimum risk of failure. Look at it right, cheap insurance. Worth it IMHO.

 

[matt_i]

Maybe I'm overlooking but I'd sacrifice either a sawzall blade or three to slice that wedge in a couple places so all of the metal can be removed.

I would use Grade 5/B7 threaded rod and an epoxy of your choice. Sika Anchorfix 2 is/was around $20 a tube and just needs a standard caulk gun. As I recall its a 5ksi epoxy if applied correctly....blow out holes starting at the bottom with a metal or flex tube.

The torque might be limited by how the epoxy can grip the thread crest & valley. I would follow epoxy instructions but consider grinding some flats on the very bottom OR adding some weld tack "bumps" to build up the OD, again at the bottom of the stud. That not only gets the epoxy in a better shear proposition by having a large flat trying to displace it in compression/push vs. trying to hold on to a knife edge in tension/pull.

I always like to hand-coat (nitrile glove, tongue depressor, etc) the threads with epoxy rather than Only jamming it in the hole and twisting. Still good to work up and down and twisting but don't let that be the only method of spreading it.

I would wait a good solid week for it to cure before full torque, especially with sub 50F temps we have for half of the 24hr day.

 

[lukedwag]

DeWalt is selling chemical anchors under the DeWalt name
They are just as good as Hilti ( better on certain aspects) and they use a standard gun.

 

[lakeroadster]

Option B.

I've installed my Rotary twice (we moved and I took it with me). Used epoxy both times: SA-193-B7 studs, SA-194-2H nuts, Hilti HY-200R epoxy.

Epoxy is superior to the mechanical anchors. Just make sure you drill the hole the right size and you clean the hole out really well to get all the concrete dust out. And as you already pointed out, they don't require much torque.

Hilti wrote the book on epoxy anchoring... accept no substitutes.

Got any questions feel free to PM me.

 

[Kaizen]

DeWalt is selling chemical anchors under the DeWalt name
They are just as good as Hilti ( better on certain aspects) and they use a standard gun.

I actually spoke with one of their engineers and the best they have can only torque to 66 pounds or 3/4 bolt. I bought theirs first as I thought it would be fine.


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[lukedwag]

I actually spoke with one of their engineers and the best they have can only torque to 66 pounds or 3/4 bolt. I bought theirs first as I thought it would be fine.


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Why are you worried about torque? It's all about pull out strength

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[Kaizen]

Option B.

I've installed my Rotary twice (we moved and I took it with me). Used epoxy both times: SA-193-B7 studs, SA-194-2H nuts, Hilti HY-200R epoxy.

Epoxy is superior to the mechanical anchors. Just make sure you drill the hole the right size and you clean the hole out really well to get all the concrete dust out. And as you already pointed out, they don't require much torque.

Hilti wrote the book on epoxy anchoring... accept no substitutes.

Got any questions feel free to PM me.

Yeah I think I will just do it. Kills me to have to use their special gun. Ordered the 7/8 inch drill bit so I can enlarge the hole. Just going to have to stop torque at 100. Just crazy how different torque numbers lifts take.


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[Kaizen]

Why are you worried about torque? It's all about pull out strength

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Because if the metal plate of the lift is not torqued enough.....well what would happen? I know if I don’t torque main bearing caps on an engine bad things happen and quick.


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[Strouty]

I am willing to bet that the 150 ft lbs torque spec is not from the lift manufacturer, but are designed to meet the anchor manufacturer. On a side not my lift wedge anchors seemed to always need retorquing and that made me feel they were pulling out. I no longer have that lift, but I would use epoxy when I install another one.

 

[lakeroadster]

Yeah I think I will just do it. Kills me to have to use their special gun. Ordered the 7/8 inch drill bit so I can enlarge the hole. Just going to have to stop torque at 100. Just crazy how different torque numbers lifts take.

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Have you checked around at rental places? Also, call the local Hilti distributor and ask them if you can borrow one.

My Rotary installation says 20-ft-lbs. Remember with an epoxy anchor you don't need any torque to hold the anchor in place (like mechanical anchors do). The only thing the torque is doing is ensuring the nut doesn't loosen up.

 

[Kaizen]

Duh eBay. Found used epoxy guns for under 50 bucks so I can take back the 200 dollar one.


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[Kaizen]

Have you checked around at rental places? Also, call the local Hilti distributor and ask them if you can borrow one.



My Rotary installation says 20-ft-lbs. Remember with an epoxy anchor you don't need any torque to hold the anchor in place (like mechanical anchors do). The only thing the torque is doing is ensuring the nut doesn't loosen up.

I had to drive 45 min to the hilti store. They bent me over. I will be taking it back and get a used one.


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[Kaizen]

I am willing to bet that the 150 ft lbs torque spec is not from the lift manufacturer, but are designed to meet the anchor manufacturer. On a side not my lift wedge anchors seemed to always need retorquing and that made me feel they were pulling out. I no longer have that lift, but I would use epoxy when I install another one.

Thanks. I’m overly nervous as I will be under this and not much experience with them so wanted to follow to the letter. Y’all are convincing me it will be fine with epoxy.


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[Diesel Dan]

Out of the 5 lifts I put up never had anchor failure.
Used Hilti or red head wedge anchors all but this last bendpak, will see how those hold up. Only recall needing 90-110 lb/ft though.

 

[lakeroadster]

Duh eBay. Found used epoxy guns for under 50 bucks so I can take back the 200 dollar one.

As a heads up: Make sure you get the correct one.

The local rental store here had one, but the Hilti tube wouldn't fit into it. The new guns are different than the old ones.

 

[firebirdparts]

The torque is just putting unnecessary force on the epoxy anchor. Torque it low and that will leave its strength actually holding the lift.

 

[JSK]

Can we assume that you DID NOT drill all the way through the floor?

If you had, you could have pounded those anchors/sleeves down into the dirt below then simply add new anchors on top of the old ones.

 

[Kaizen]

Can we assume that you DID NOT drill all the way through the floor?



If you had, you could have pounded those anchors/sleeves down into the dirt below then simply add new anchors on top of the old ones.

Correct I did not. Could have easily have done that but did not know until I started researching how to fix my spinning anchors. That should be on every anchor directions. I guess I got lucky that my anchors did set but the bolt pulled out. So using some cut washers I was able to tighten the not and have it pull out of the hole. Now I can either pound down the sleeves or drill them out. Depends on if they drill and crush or start chewing up the hole. With epoxy I won’t be drilling all the way but would have if I was going to use more anchors.


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[Farmall450]

I actually spoke with one of their engineers and the best they have can only torque to 66 pounds or 3/4 bolt. I bought theirs first as I thought it would be fine.


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That's all you need; it's not a wedge.

 

[Kaizen]

That's all you need; it's not a wedge.

I will give it a try and torque to say 45. Sure will save me a bunch


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[Farmall450]

I will give it a try and torque to say 45. Sure will save me a bunch


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Yes, their engineers aren't fooling around. Since you aren't relying on the wedge expanding to lock it, you don't need or want nearly the torque, b/c once it starts drifting, bad things happen.

I think they'll work just fine.

 

[curiousB]

I had problems with my wedge anchors for my M-6 lift. In this case the anchors are female threaded flush to floor so you can install and remove the lift.

I presume yours is a permanent installation and thus you are using threaded male studs coming up out of the hole. You might try using longer studs than you need. Long enough able to hold 4 nuts above the base plate. Then run you washer at the bottom, your setting nut next then jam together a pair of nuts at the top of the stud. Get two wrenches and use the jam nut to hold the stud from rotating and use the lowest nut to draw up the wedge till you hit the mfg setting spec. Probably 90-120 ft pds. This should set the stud without rotating in the hole. Then use a sawzall to cut off the stud above the lowest nut. Repeat 5-6 times per base plate.

 

[Kaizen]

I had problems with my wedge anchors for my M-6 lift. In this case the anchors are female threaded flush to floor so you can install and remove the lift.

I presume yours is a permanent installation and thus you are using threaded male studs coming up out of the hole. You might try using longer studs than you need. Long enough able to hold 4 nuts above the base plate. Then run you washer at the bottom, your setting nut next then jam together a pair of nuts at the top of the stud. Get two wrenches and use the jam nut to hold the stud from rotating and use the lowest nut to draw up the wedge till you hit the mfg setting spec. Probably 90-120 ft pds. This should set the stud without rotating in the hole. Then use a sawzall to cut off the stud above the lowest nut. Repeat 5-6 times per base plate.

Now that my studs are out of the holes i can see what the problem is. Basically the stud pulled through the sleeve. The sleeve did set in as it was supposed to. I did use that procedure kind of to get the stud out. Put washers cut in half under the nut, held the top of the bolt, and tightened the nut. it pulled them right out of the holes which was great in this case. Now i can put in epoxy ones and be done with it.

 

[Kaizen]

Thanks for all your help. No place like gj to get me through the problems.



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[curiousB]

nice! congrats. I had to shake car quite a bit to build up courage to go under it.

 

[Kaizen]

nice! congrats. I had to shake car quite a bit to build up courage to go under it.

oh yea. since i installed this myself i was running through every bolt in my head last night. figured lightest car was the best bet. had multiple exit paths ready lol

 

[FTG-05]

Thanks for all your help. No place like gj to get me through the problems.



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Looks just like mine!

Took me 6 months to get the courage to get underneath it. Now I love it. My BIL uses it almost as much as I do.

 

[Farmall450]

Woohoo! Looks great.

Someday...

 

[lakeroadster]

Thanks for all your help. No place like gj to get me through the problems.

Glad it worked out for you...