Another attempt at explaining socket detents

[Wamsutta]

For the sake of discussion, let's refer to the top of a socket as being the square drive end. You guys with the Hansen socket trays will probably agree. OK now ... let's pretend for a second that a chrome socket has no detents, what's going to keep the socket from traveling all the way up an extension; the round section, correct?

The square drive end of the socket is prevented from traveling all the way up the extension because it runs into the round section. If the entire extension was a square, then the circumstances might be different.

Now ... wouldn't it be nice if the little spring loaded friction ball of the extension was to center itself into the scooped out detent at the same time as the square drive stops at the round section?

In order for that to happen, the scooped out detent needs to be positioned inside the square drive in such away that the friction ball centers into the detent at the exact moment that the socket stops at the round section. If the detent is too far up, then the friction ball of the extension is going to travel passed the detent before the socket comes to a complete stop at the round section.

If the detents are too far down in the square drive, then the socket will come to a stop at the round section of the extension before the friction ball of the extension has a chance to engage with the detent.

If any of you guys can explain it better than I can with words, please do so.

 

[jay70]

??? What even is the point of this thread???

 

[Wamsutta]

The point of this thread is to earn a one star rating; which it will probably do easily.

 

[AA/FC]

The point of this thread is to earn a one star rating; which it will probably do easily.

Lolol

 

[jay70]

The point of this thread is to earn a one star rating; which it will probably do easily.

Sorry mate just gave it 5 stars

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

Got a link to the first attempt?

 

[97nismo]

Why is this a topic?

 

[protegeV]

 

[Wamsutta]

This is a topic because you guys need to know when a socket has its detents in the wrong spot. A buyer beware topic. Hopefully some manufacturers like GearWrench will catch on.

 

[DWise]

I gave it 5 stars because of the photography.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

The detents purpose is to keep the socket from falling off the tool and release it only when everything is positioned to allow the socket to fall and roll to a location where it will be somewhat hidden or least convenient to retrieve.

 

[Moparman390]

The detents purpose is to keep the socket from falling off the tool and release it only when everything is positioned to allow the socket to fall and roll to a location where it will be somewhat hidden or least convenient to retrieve.

This guy is right, it's there more to keep the socket from falling off than pushing up where it will be hard stopped by running into the round part of the extension or ratchet head.

 

[Michael_in_DE]

This guy is right, it's there more to keep the socket from falling off than pushing up where it will be hard stopped by running into the round part of the extension or ratchet head.

This guy is also right.

But I believe that socket extension also has a 'back-up' solution sing as most are round and will therefore keep the socket from sliding down the extension as well.

Now, lets talk about lynching those who DO NOT put detents in their sockets and therefore more prone to dropping in the engine bay, and incurring my, F IT lets see how far I can throw it attitude.

 

[Spacey_G]

For "at the same time" and "exact moment" to occur consistently, both the socket and the drive tool would need to be made with zero tolerance. It would be nice but not practical.

Is the issue with Gearwrench sockets that the detent engages too soon?

 

[CR888]

I liked the OP's explanation, if he had a chat to all the cheap socket producers who set up the tooling to make them we'd have much nicer tools to use. When you have detents in the right spot, tight tolerances and good ball springs, extensions & sockets are MUCH nicer to use. So many BIG tool co's get this small feature WRONG and only a few actually get it right. Gearwrech are hop less in this area, when the socket is in position on your ratchet or extension you can push it down another few mm's and its annoying. These are fine details that seperate shiny chrome polished tools from the educated buyer or 0.1%'ers. So many reccomend sockets in threads everyday without seeing past the shiny chrome and warranty claim on the pack. Good info IMO.

 

[Mr Ratchet]

As long as all of my sockets and extension combinations lock together I don't give the subject much thought. Each manufacturer has their own idea on what spec's they want to use. You have double detents in addition to the single ones. All of my wobble extensions have the ball lock in the socket detent and produce the wobble motion. Then they all can be pressed down past the detent on to the shoulder of the extension to eliminate the wobble without the ball being in any detent.

 

[nmantas]

Then there are the Danahar/Apex double detents.......

I have a portable set of craftsman ratchets and sockets that have double detents and have had no issue with them using the next gen craftsman ratchets from the set (never used any other tools with them). I recently bought a few Armstrong and Allen garage socket set fills from Cripe with the same detent design and tried the sockets on my garage ratchets (typically nonquick release)......holy **** I feel like I wasted money. If I need a screwdriver to take a socket off there is a design flaw. Thinking of taking a little material off between the detents with my dremel.

 

[anndel]

The point of this thread is to earn a one star rating; which it will probably do easily.

Sorry to disappoint you but I gave it a 5 star rating.

 

[PJNJ]

Next thread idea - how ratchet direction switches work.

 

[Wamsutta]

For "at the same time" and "exact moment" to occur consistently, both the socket and the drive tool would need to be made with zero tolerance. It would be nice but not practical.

Is the issue with Gearwrench sockets that the detent engages too soon?

Yes they do. If GearWrench was to move the detents down further into the square drive a little ways, then the engagement of the friction ball with the detent and the stop at the extension would occur at the same time. We're probably talking about a distance in the neighborhood of thousands of an inch.

 

[Spacey_G]

I don't have access to the standard, but I would bet the detent location is specified in ASME B107.110.

Maybe Gearwrench moves the detent a little closer to the end so that they can have a larger tolerance on its location without exceeding the maximum distance, which would cause the detent to not fully engage.

 

[WWheeler]

Funny how I have had sets of GearWrench sockets for several years now and not once have I ever noticed this is a problem.

Has anyone actually measured the detent location on them as compared to other brands?

 

[Yarpo]

Funny how I have had sets of GearWrench sockets for several years now and not once have I ever noticed this is a problem.

I got home from work early and read this thread, promptly went to the garage and played with 1/4" and 3/8" gearwrench sockets and extensions(GW/Stanley/SnapOn/Craftsman) and must have the nicest GW set on the planet, cause all my sockets sit pretty damn perfectly on my extension.

 

[Wamsutta]

I got home from work early and read this thread, promptly went to the garage and played with 1/4" and 3/8" gearwrench sockets and extensions(GW/Stanley/SnapOn/Craftsman) and must have the nicest GW set on the planet, cause all my sockets sit pretty damn perfectly on my extension.

After the socket is pushed all the way on the extension as far as it will go, take your thumb and push it down a tad; you'll see the socket move away from the stop and then center itself on the friction ball. That's my beef.

 

[WWheeler]

Hmmm, measuring the depth of the indention away from the 'top' of the socket per the description in the OP is a bit tricky to do.

I took short extension and measured its exposed length with a GearWrench 9/16 semi-deep (80368S) seated squarely on the extension's ball-detent and did the same with a Snap-on 9/16 semi-deep (FSS181). They both measure almost identical to one another. As best I can tell the difference between them in the depth of the indention from the top is ~0.2mm which is negligible. I repeated these measurements several times and the variation was at least that.



I did notice though, that the Gearwrench will push further on completely past the spring-ball detent which seems to be the complaint whereas the Snap-on will only push a tiny bit past center and if you let go the socket will move back to again center itself on the ball. This looks to be due to the fact that the GearWrench has a noticeably deeper bowl-taper (don't know exactly what to call it) that lets the round portion of the extension to go deeper into the socket.



I suspect this difference is by design so that the socket works better with a wobble-end extension, and it truly does work better than the Snap-on, especially when you want to push past the wobble so as to have the socket lock into the fixed, or 'ridgid' position. The Snap-on just barely gets onto the square portion of the wobble end whereas the Gearwrench really sets up on it.

 

[Al Borland]

Now, try mix-and-match with different brands of sockets, ratchets, and extensions
(But that's another issue)

 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Hmph... how do the hog ring anvils fit into all of this? I've always wondered about this. Is it that the impact sockets tend not to have the simple indents? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[WWheeler]

Hmph... how do the hog ring anvils fit into all of this? I've always wondered about this. Is it that the impact sockets tend not to have the simple indents? Inquiring minds want to know.

I'm sure you and most everyone reading this forum knows this, but for thread discussion sake, putting a non-impact socket w/ the four detent indentations on a hog ring anvil is a really bad idea, as anyone who has done so can attest to. Unlike an impact socket with a single indentation (usually a through hole for a pin detent) the hog ring will seat in all four indentations and you'll fight like hell with it to get it off, likely needing a screwdriver, and run a very good chance of breaking the hog ring, deservedly leaving the numnuts who did so with both a busted anvil and a wallowed out non-impact socket from beating on it with an impact.

If you are going to destroy your non-impact sockets better to do it on an impact with a pin detent anvil. At least then it won't get stuck.

 

[Jeremy77]

This is a problem so terrible that I was unaware that I even had it.

 

[3baygarage]

For a mind blowing experience try to mix and match Snap On low profile socket set with regular.

 

[bob15]

Now where do my old chrome Bonney sockets without the detent fit into this story? Those Bonney's been working just fine since the 1950's and never had a socket fall off prematurely, nor has it gone up too far on an extension.

 

[Yarpo]

After the socket is pushed all the way on the extension as far as it will go, take your thumb and push it down a tad; you'll see the socket move away from the stop and then center itself on the friction ball. That's my beef.

I see what you're saying. My gearwrench ones seat nicely but can be pushed down with my thumb a little farther, but then again every other socket in my box I tried this with did the same thing?

 

[Spacey_G]

I'm still trying to figure out why it's a problem to be able to push the socket on a little farther once it seats.

 

[Wamsutta]

I see what you're saying. My gearwrench ones seat nicely but can be pushed down with my thumb a little farther, but then again every other socket in my box I tried this with did the same thing?

Can you hear the click every time you move the socket between the fully centered detent position and the full stop?

 

[WWheeler]

I'm still trying to figure out why it's a problem to be able to push the socket on a little farther once it seats.

Me too. It's never been a problem for me before. The only thing the detent is for is keeping the socket from falling off, and it still does that.

As i wrote above, it looks to me like it's that way on purpose to better work with a wobble extension.

 

[Wamsutta]

I'm still trying to figure out why it's a problem to be able to push the socket on a little farther once it seats.

When you push the socket on a little further until it stops, you're also pushing the friction ball of the extension passed the center of the detent. But then if you pull the socket back away from the stop so that you can re-center it on the detent, the socket will wobble because it's away from the stop.

 

[Farmall450]

This guy is right, it's there more to keep the socket from falling off than pushing up where it will be hard stopped by running into the round part of the extension or ratchet head.

Hence the name detent.

 

[WWheeler]

Can you hear the click every time you move the socket between the fully centered detent position and the full stop?

Yeah, but I'm just not really understanding why that's a problem. Have you had an actual issue due to this? I've never had my GW sockets fall off the ratchet or extension before.

The Snap-on I compared it to also pushes a bit past fully centered detent position and makes a similar clicking sound, though not as far and the ball doesn't push all the way past the indentation like the GW does. It's not even the shoulders of the extension where it goes from square to round that stop it on the Snap-on, but rather the depth of the square end is not as deep and the end of the extension hitting up inside the socket. The GearWrench on the left is not just a couple MMs deeper but also machined in a deeper round/bowl up inside just like it is around the square drive end, again, like it's made to work better with a wobble-end.

 

[Wamsutta]

GearWrench may make them that way to work better with a wobble-end, but I don't know because I don't have any wobble extensions.

What I do know for sure is that my Snap-on and Proto sockets are timed so that when the friction ball is fully centered in the detent, the socket is also fully seated up against the stop. It feels like a rock solid connection when the socket is sitting fully square against the stop and centered in the detent at the same time.

 

[PJNJ]

This is a problem so terrible that I was unaware that I even had it.

Sums it up well.

I've never had a socket fall off or had a problem with not being able to install or remove a fastener because of any socket movement on an extension or on a ratchet (which also has had at least one thread devoted to it).