Another barn insulation thread, I'm sorry

[travisn1]

Between researching and dealing with a cold barn I'm ready to do something but am worried about long term effects.

30x42x16, built around 2005 I think. Upstate NY

The plan is to put liner panels on the interior, likely white. Run all MC cable for outlets and lights on the surface.

Since I can't/won't put house wrap under the exterior metal, am I limited to building out with 2x4's and putting in r13 bats in order to keep an air gap? I really don't want to worry about mold or rust.

Do I caulk at the bottom to keep critters out? I think it has the foam filler pieces but they definitely don't touch the panels 100%.

I'm getting a quote from diy pole barns for an insulation kit, not sure what that comes with or what I'll be required to add for structure.

Maybe I'll use rockwool r23?

Horizontal girts or vertical studs? Going flush with the 6x6's would be nice but not a requirement on my part. I'm not really a 'hang stuff on the walls' kind of guy. Maybe a white board, drill chart, and paper towel holder.

Ceiling... rafters are 48" OC, so do I fir on 24" centers, liner panel, blow in a bunch of something?

Vapor barrier before the liner panels?

Thanks in advance. I'm going crazy if you can't already tell.

 

[matt_i]

I would start with keeping critters out. You could bend pieces of trim coil fitted to the spaces, or stainless screening/hardware cloth should be a start. You can caulk around that (well the trim coil), or under the hardware cloth for air sealing but imo put something there that the critters can't touch with their teeth.

I'm a fan of rockwool due to the benefits (higher R-value for the thickness, doesn't harbor organic growth/mold, essentially fireproof) but it takes some extra time to cut and fit it properly.

What is your intended heat source?

 

[travisn1]

What is your intended heat source?

I have a decent pellet stove i pulled from the house that I might use until I can be bothered to trench a gas line out there.

 

[GTFiero]

With a 16’ wall I would skip the 2x4” and go with 2x6”. The 2x4” will make a very flimsy wall even after you put the wall sheathing (OSB, drywall etc) on it. Most wall over 10’ with 2x4” do t fair well. As a minimum go with 2x6” the cost really isn’t much more.

Rock wool is a good idea. What ever insulation you use, it must be kept dry at the floor level. That being said, you might want to put 2” foam at the bottom of your wall cavities to keep the insulation off the floor plate.

 

[Dodge]

Spray Foam. My son did his new building, very tight and a sound deaden-er.

 

[travisn1]

With a 16’ wall I would skip the 2x4” and go with 2x6”. The 2x4” will make a very flimsy wall even after you put the wall sheathing (OSB, drywall etc) on it. Most wall over 10’ with 2x4” do t fair well. As a minimum go with 2x6” the cost really isn’t much more.

Rock wool is a good idea. What ever insulation you use, it must be kept dry at the floor level. That being said, you might want to put 2” foam at the bottom of your wall cavities to keep the insulation off the floor plate.

Good points, thanks. I'm still worried about the right amount of sealing re: the steel to the outside. Since I know it's not 100% waterproof, moisture will get in so I need to allow it to get out.

Spray Foam. My son did his new building, very tight and a sound deaden-er.

I believe spray foam is not a good option for me since the barn is not house wrapped. Panel removal and panel rust are a concern.

 

[dcg9381]

My barn has a "rat lip" (there's another name for this) - basically the panels are inset into the foundation so you don't get that gap at the bottom.

Caulk - absolutely..

Or as others have mentioned: foam insulation solves a bunch of these problems real fast. It, does, however, remove your ridge and soffit vents and make your barn more of an envelope. Closed cell (expensive) does appear to provide sound insulation. It's more expensive than traditional insulation, but IMHO, much more effective.

My second choice would be caulking/sealing - install wiper strips on your doors. Insulate the vertical walls any way you want. I'd probably do the bottom of the walls where it meets the foundation in expandable foam, after a heavy dose of pesticide.

Ceilings are a challenge. I'd spray foam that ceiling, it's just MUCH easier and although more expensive, you've got a tall building and it can be done in a few hours (at most).

Again, this will leave you with a "ventless" building, but it's easy to install a push-pull fan setup, if that's what you want, dehumidify, or even heat..

I believe spray foam is not a good option for me since the barn is not house wrapped. Panel removal and panel rust are a concern.

Here, we spray foam right on the metal. No problems. My barn was done this way, tons of hangers done this way. You're right, you can't remove panels without having to-readdress insulation, but that should be pretty rare. No issues with rust.

 

[bullnerd]

Frame a complete set of additional, 16' walls ($$$) inside a standing building just to hold insulation, Think about that for a minute.

Blanket or spray makes more sense to me.

I went blanket. I was going to add the link to my build, but since PB went crazy, none of the pics work. So here's just a few to get an idea.

Blown in the ceiling and a very efficient radiant tube heater makes the shop more comfortable than my house!

 

[travisn1]

Frame a complete set of additional, 16' walls ($$$) inside a standing building just to hold insulation, Think about that for a minute.

Blanket or spray makes more sense to me.

I went blanket. I was going to add the link to my build, but since PB went crazy, none of the pics work. So here's just a few to get an idea.

Blown in the ceiling and a very efficient radiant tube heater makes the shop more comfortable than my house!

I see your build thread in your signature, I'll have to read through it tonight. Thanks.

Yes, a bunch of extra 2x's don't make sense and I like what you did.

No concerns with the fiberglass settling? Even though you have it pinched at the top (was that permanent?) will that work long term?

 

[bullnerd]

You don't have to take my word for it. I copied Morton buildings. If framing an extra building inside was the way to go, they'd be doing it.

You can go to their website and see a vid of their process.

The blankets are hanging from the header. The pinch you see is some small scrap wood clamps that it is hanging from.

I can post pics of them if you want.

 

[b-boy]

I added 2" foamboard (R10) between my 6x6 posts. I screwed it directly into the girts. Then I used spray foam to seal any gaps. I framed 16" OC using 2x4s on top of that, and added unfaced R11 batts. That's covered in 1/2" OSB.

The ceiling has 24" X 48" faced batts (R38) covered with corrugated steel panels.

The structure is air-tight, and I barely have to run my heater to keep it warm.

 

[travisn1]

You don't have to take my word for it. I copied Morton buildings. If framing an extra building inside was the way to go, they'd be doing it.

You can go to their website and see a vid of their process.

The blankets are hanging from the header. The pinch you see is some small scrap wood clamps that it is hanging from.

I can post pics of them if you want.

No, I saw, it's just a lot of weight hanging from the clamp. I'm just a natural born skeptic.

I'll check out their vids.

Your method seems like the winner so far. What did you do for vapor barrier? before interior wall sheeting?

I added 2" foamboard (R10) between my 6x6 posts. I screwed it directly into the girts. Then I used spray foam to seal any gaps. I framed 16" OC using 2x4s on top of that, and added unfaced R11 batts. That's covered in 1/2" OSB.

The ceiling has 24" X 48" faced batts (R38) covered with corrugated steel panels.

The structure is air-tight, and I barely have to run my heater to keep it warm.

Spray foam for gaps = great stuff? If the r11 is unfaced, what did use to keep it from settling?

Seems thorough but it also sounds like $10k in materials, which I'm trying to avoid.

 

[bullnerd]

That's understandable, 16' is a lot of insulation. I came up with my own way to do it. I never found a good pic of exactly how Morton does it. I had to be able to hang it by myself. So I fed it up through the header and hooked it on.

Yes, walls and ceiling were covered in plastic, Then metal liner.

 

[tricountytrail]

I ran the numbers Spray foam is expensive but much better insulation and you save on the lumber and extra work ect. No air infiltration I am 100% a fan If your heating and cooling your space.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=957392&stc=1&d=1576632735

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=957393&stc=1&d=1576632735

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=431840

and for more picss

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=410461

 

[GRivera]

I added 2" foamboard (R10) between my 6x6 posts. I screwed it directly into the girts. Then I used spray foam to seal any gaps. I framed 16" OC using 2x4s on top of that, and added unfaced R11 batts. That's covered in 1/2" OSB.

The ceiling has 24" X 48" faced batts (R38) covered with corrugated steel panels.

The structure is air-tight, and I barely have to run my heater to keep it warm.

Sounds slick - Where are you located?

 

[Mancino]

I did a version of what b-boy did. I searched for surplus EPS or XPS insulation to attach right to the metal panels. Then CC foam on top of that to up the R value and seal cracks. That way if I ever need to remove outside panels, the foam isn't sprayed right to the panels...you can check out my build thread to see what I did. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373162

And like dcg9381, I also have whats called a rat guard on the bottom of my panels that closes the bottom of the metal to keep critters out.

 

[travisn1]

Thanks guys, keep em coming. I like the idea of the concrete rat guard, I'm going to see what's going on in that area, I haven't paid attention to those up-close details yet.

I got a quote a couple years ago for a 19x25x10' garage at my old house and I think they wanted $3600 to spray foam it. So at that rate it would be at least 10k in just spray foam. How much did it cost for your 30x40x12?

 

[Mancino]

I did roughly 2" of CC foam on top of the EPS foam....it cost me $1400.

 

[Mancino]

Most spray foam outfits charge around .90-$1/in for CC...at least that's the pricing I've seen around my area.

 

[b-boy]

Sounds slick - Where are you located?

Buffalo NY

It was a lot of work, but I'm very happy with the results. The foam board is a bit pricey.

 

[travisn1]

Most spray foam outfits charge around .90-$1/in for CC...at least that's the pricing I've seen around my area.

Yea, but how far upstate are you? Maybe stuff is cheaper in southern canada. haha.

Buffalo NY

It was a lot of work, but I'm very happy with the results. The foam board is a bit pricey.

Us western NY guys gotta stick together. This cold is a mess. If I can get spray foam for 2k I might do the foam board against the steel.

 

[travisn1]

Looks like I'm good in the rat board department. Concrete poured right up to the girts. If you look close you can see a piece of flashing that's closing out the bottom of the panel ribs. Should I still seal them with something? Low expanding great stuff? Caulk?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Spray Foam. My son did his new building, very tight and a sound deaden-er.

Second that ! Even if you do 2" and then add fiberglass rolls/batts later.

It has to be closed cell. Open cell hold moisture.

 

[Mancino]

Yea, but how far upstate are you? Maybe stuff is cheaper in southern canada. haha.

Ha! You could be right...I'm outside of Albany. I don't consider Poughkeepsie or Kingston upstate.

 

[soloz2]

South of Rochester NY here. It's chilly today. My garage is down to 41 degrees! Need to find some time to dig into my furnace and see if I can use it.


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[travisn1]

So quick and dirty math says I need about 2000 sq foot of insulation, which is 3-4 spray foam kits and 70 sheets of 1.5" foam board. About R14 total assuming I can get an even 1". I've painted cars before so I'm confident my technique will be sufficient. I'll probably rent scaffolding. Approx cost is $4100

From a pole barn manufacturer for large bat kits that go between the posts:
r-10 $2,051.50
r-13 $2,812.54
r-19 $3,242.70

The r19 kit is more r-value on paper, but the spray will be more sealed so it might offset the lower r-value.

Similar costs to both options: plastic sheeting before wall panels, $500 for blown in insulation on the ceiling.

I'm still going to get a quote from the local Mennonites who build pole barns to see what they offer.

 

[b-boy]

Spray foam for gaps = great stuff? If the r11 is unfaced, what did use to keep it from settling?

Seems thorough but it also sounds like $10k in materials, which I'm trying to avoid.

Yes - Great Stuff. I invested $50 for the spray gun. It makes a huge difference.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002YOMJE/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The R11 packs into the gaps between the framing very tightly. I don't anticipate a lot of settling. Overall, I wanted a tightly sealed building, and that's what I got. Spray foam would have been $6K-$8K.

I think the total cost was:

• 2" foam board (1700 sq ft) - ~$1600
• R11 unfaced batts (1700 sq ft) - ~$700
• R38 faced batts (1200 sq ft) - ~$900
• spray foam - ~$100
• screws/adhesive/strapping/etc... - ~$200

I had quite a bit of material left over, because I didn't factor out the 9x8 and 16x9 doors and the windows. I sold the extra foam board and R11 batts for $500 on CL.

Total - ~$3000

I don't count the framing here, because I planned on doing that anyway.

 

[wingrider02]

I added 2" foamboard (R10) between my 6x6 posts. I screwed it directly into the girts. Then I used spray foam to seal any gaps. I framed 16" OC using 2x4s on top of that, and added unfaced R11 batts. That's covered in 1/2" OSB.

The ceiling has 24" X 48" faced batts (R38) covered with corrugated steel panels.

The structure is air-tight, and I barely have to run my heater to keep it warm.

If you had to have multiple pieces of foam board together, did you spray foam them, or just make sure they were tight together? How about the edges of where the post met the foam?