Another jack handle feedback (Arcan rising under load) question

[Stevenn1]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=197787

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51105

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=173844

I have read a lot on here about this problem. My old AJ-35 jack (red/black) is starting to get this issue. I guess it is a 'working valve' problem? So where is it located in the pics? I added my new XL-35 jack (black) picture too, it came with the labels on it.
Thanks.

 

[Hiball]

My gut tells me that the working valves are under the hex plugs. I am curious after looking at the newer version if Arcan has went to cartridge type valve system on the new jacks.

I can verify with some pictures of components. Maybe elevate the rear of the jack to persuade the oil to the other end and crack that hex open and let me know what you have. If you see another adjusting plug underneath the hex, its more than likely Not the working valve, and since its a dual pump piston there should be 2 working valves, thus the handle feedback is because the upper ball isn't seating, you will have to inspect both upper seats.

 

[EDGAR]

That jack looks a lot like the AFF 350SS. When you open it check if it has the same components as shown in the parts breakdown. It also shares the pump with the 200TT. Does you jack looks like the one below? The parts breakdown are also linked below. And yes, the working valves, or one way valves, should be under the hex plugs. Be aware that on the parts breakdowns one of the working valve components are not shown for the sake of clarity of the other components.

http://www.affjaxx.com/pdf/350SS.pdf

http://www.affjaxx.com/pdf/200t_sd.pdf

 

[Stevenn1]

Its the red/black one thats starting to have the issue. It is an Arcan AJ-35. I can not find anything on the net about it, this is where u guys come in. I even emailed the company and they said its not listed in their digital database anymore, so i hit a dead-end there. Its still a good working jack today. I will open the hex nuts soon & let your guys know what i find. Just wondering, if i mesure the ram diameter (i have a Snap-On 6" digital caliper), would that tell me the real ton capacity of the jack? Since i have heard these import jacks tend to be over-rated. Thanks.

 

[EDGAR]

STEVENN1

If you check post #3 you might find your answer there. AFF sells also the same aluminum jack Arcan sells, so there is a possibility of the SJ-35 being the same as the AFF 350ss. Both have the same supplier, I guess.

As far as rating, the manufacturers don't expect anyone lifting more than half a ton at a time. If anyone tries to lift, lets say 3 tons at a time, something in the jack might fail, either the pump or the chassis. And this pump has the less than desirable o-ring and o-ring retainer as a main seal, which is kind of frail compared to an u-cup.

 

[Stevenn1]

Used 6mm hex. So far this is what i can get out of the hole with a small magnet.

 

[Hiball]

Used 6mm hex. So far this is what i can get out of the hole with a small magnet.

Below that weight there will a small ball, the problem though is the seat where that upper ball sits. If you didn't see any debris that would prevent the ball from seating, I would recommend that you "lightly" attempt to reseat each side and see if it remedies your problem. This can be done by reassembling the valve components and with a punch aprox the size of that upper ball, give it some taps with a hammer. It is possible to overseat things so don't go crazy... I would do both sides but more than likely its the left side. Here is a link to understanding valve seats, it can also be found in the link in my signature.

 

[Stevenn1]

So the upper ball basically is to not rise in the hole?
So i put it all back in, tap with a punch/hammer, put hex screw back on & should fix it?

I was looking at the info EDGAR sent, if its the same model, i am missing a ball bearing.
That info says a 10mm, 8mm, the spacer, then a 5.5mm.
I have one of the big ball bearings (10 or 8 mm), the spacer, then a smaller one.

 

[Hiball]

So the upper ball basically is to not rise in the hole?
So i put it all back in, tap with a punch/hammer, put hex screw back on & should fix it?

I was looking at the info EDGAR sent, if its the same model, i am missing a ball bearing.
That info says a 10mm, 8mm, the spacer, then a 5.5mm.
I have one of the big ball bearings (10 or 8 mm), the spacer, then a smaller one.

I can't confirm whether your jack uses 3 balls or 2? Did you open the left or right hex? The upper ball seats to hold cylinder pressure, when there is seepage the oil slips around the ball/seat and seats the lower ball and transfers to the pump pistons, which in turn lifts the handle.

Again.. I'm not 100% familiar with this model, but my guess since there is a high and low side is that there is 3 balls on the high side and when the cylinder pressure opens the high side adjustment, it diverts oil instead of lifting the upper ball.

The seat procedure will work for all seats, you just have to be careful on smaller seats and use a punch that fits the hole opening, versus a punch the size of the ball. With to small of punch you take a chance of slipping off the ball and damaging the seat.

 

[Stevenn1]

Ok. Well the first one i opened was the right side. I put it all back with light taps. I kept checking the seating process with a small magnetic pick-up tool. The magnet kept on bringing the ball back out. I assumed that it was not seated when the magnet can do this? So gave it a couple more light taps & then screwed on the hex. Then i opened the left side, pulled out the ball, no debris, put it back, did light taps and closed it up.

 

[Hiball]

Ok. Well the first one i opened was the right side. I put it all back with light taps. I kept checking the seating process with a small magnetic pick-up tool. The magnet kept on bringing the ball back out. I assumed that it was not seated when the magnet can do this? So gave it a couple more light taps & then screwed on the hex. Then i opened the left side, pulled out the ball, no debris, put it back, did light taps and closed it up.

Ok.. When the ball seats, that doesn't mean it sticks, they are supposed to lift when pressure dictates and seat/seal from the topside. Just curious.. How many balls where on the left side?

Have you tried it? Make sure you bleed it first, handle in the release position, pump 8-10 times, handle in the go position and give it a try.

 

[EDGAR]

Just out of curiosity, did you try to pick the balls with a magnet or by turning the pump/jack upside down? Did you look down the hole, while using a flashlight, to see if there is a ball stuck there? There was a case here before of a ball that was missing and I recommended the GJ member to turn the jack upside down and tap the bottom of the pump body with a hammer as sometimes the balls get somehow stuck to the seats. He did and a ball fell down. Do keep an eye for any falling ball so it does not get lost if it is indeed there.

 

[Stevenn1]

All i used was a magnet. I did see another something in the hole, could of been another ball.

I didnt see in the left. I just pulled a ball out and put it back. There was some oil in the left keeping me from seeing in it easily. The oil on the right was lower.

 

[Hiball]

Thats weird, my last post vanished, hmmmm...

So i seated it, i think. I did light taps, checked with magnet, it still raises the ball, did more light taps, checked with magnet, it still raised it, did a couple more taps & sealed it.
That was the right side. Then i did the same for the left. So if it is seated properly, should a magnetic pick-up tool be able to bring the ball back out?

Yes post #11 I think we are replying to fast for you. Lol

 

[EDGAR]

I think that if there is oil over the ball, the magnet will not pick the ball. That is exactly what the other member did to retrieve the balls and his magnet would not pick the ball. The same thing has happened to me when trying to use a magnet, so now I turn the pump upside down and tap the bottom of the pump in case of a missing ball, just to be sure. Maybe the oil disrupts the magnetism.

 

[Hiball]

I think that if there is oil over the ball, the magnet will not pick the ball. That is exactly what the other member did to retrieve the balls and his magnet would not pick the ball. The same thing has happened to me when trying to use a magnet, so now I turn the pump upside down and tap the bottom of the pump in case of a missing ball, just to be sure. Maybe the oil disrupts the magnetism.

Strange.. Maybe my magnets are stronger, I've never had a problem.

 

[Stevenn1]

Got an oil mess now. The block the jack was on fell over and back casters hit floor. Oil came out left hole. Got to add oil & bleed....

 

[EDGAR]

Well, it is one of those cheap extendable pencil type magnet. I think that was what the other member was also using. These are probably not very strong. But it only happens if the oil level in the hole is well over the ball but not if the ball has oil on the surface only.

 

[Stevenn1]

Tested the old jack, handle still rises.

Tested new jack, something weird happened. As i was lifting car, i pushed handle down and it would not stay down at all. Lucky i still had a good grip on handle. Handle rose with much force, car lowered as handle rose. As if the jack was trying to undo the last full pump i did. Then i pushed it back down & it stayed, car stayed up. It only did it the first time i really put the vehicle weight on it. I tried it again several times, fast pumps, slow pumps. Lowered it, raised it. It never did it again. Did a hold test for a few minutes, handle never rose, jack never lowered. It only did it the one time. I wonder if something was just sticking in shipping. Have u ever heard of this happening? Hmmmm......

 

[EDGAR]

Did you seat both of the big balls, left side and right side? What is the condition of the balls? These should look bright and shiny, as these are chromed. Maybe you will eventually have to try using new balls if seating the balls does not works. Have you inspected the seats? Do you see any nick on the edge of the seats? It is the very edge of the seat that seals, the intersection of the vertical hole wall and the slopping edge seat. Any damage to this edge, any loss of metal due to rust will result in a leaking seat.

Last resort alternative before trying to redo the seat edge:

There is also another alternative if using new balls of the same size does not work. You may try a new ball of a slightly smaller diameter, and seat that one by tapping and then test. If the ball is 10mm, you can use a 3/8" ball which is 9.5mm. It does work as long as the size of the smaller ball isn't to far away from the original size. What you are doing here is slightly lowering the point of contact of the ball with seat edge. That "new" seat edge may be in good condition compared to the original seat edge.

I did recommend this to someone else here but he did not paid attention. His Snap On jack still leaks even after trying to redo the seats repeatedly.

For anyone thinking of shooting down this alternative, please try it before commenting (nagging) on how "it does not work because of this or because of that". Nay saying without actual experience does not helps anyone at all, it only prevent others from getting results. I have done it before and it works.

I did not mention any name, did I? Let's see who bites.

 

[Hiball]

Tested the old jack, handle still rises.

Tested new jack, something weird happened. As i was lifting car, i pushed handle down and it would not stay down at all. Lucky i still had a good grip on handle. Handle rose with much force, car lowered as handle rose. As if the jack was trying to undo the last full pump i did. Then i pushed it back down & it stayed, car stayed up. It only did it the first time i really put the vehicle weight on it. I tried it again several times, fast pumps, slow pumps. Lowered it, raised it. It never did it again. Did a hold test for a few minutes, handle never rose, jack never lowered. It only did it the one time. I wonder if something was just sticking in shipping. Have u ever heard of this happening? Hmmmm......

I wouldn't sweat it.. Sometimes if there is a pocket of air you will get a instant where the ball didn't seat, since it rectified itself on the next stroke I would call it good.

 

[Hiball]

I did recommend this to someone else here but he did not paid attention. His Snap On jack still leaks even after trying to redo the seats repeatedly.

For anyone thinking of shooting down this alternative, please try it before commenting (nagging) on how "it does not work because of this or because of that". Nay saying without actual experience does not helps anyone at all, it only prevent others from getting results. I have done it before and it works.

I did not mention any name, did I? Let's see who bites.

IRC that was Jeeper who tried to use a smaller ball, with no success. The only thing I can see from going to a smaller ball, which going from a 9.5 to 10mm ball and calling it smaller is a stretch IMO, the sealing angle difference between 9.5 and 10 isn't much. I can't say I've ever needed to use a smaller ball to remedy seat issues and you definitely wouldn't want to step down too far or your going to have a over seat condition.

Did you catch what you where looking for?

 

[EDGAR]

Hook, line and sinker.

With a good bait, the fish always bite. Hungry fish I guess?

I think I should ask that person if he actually used a smaller ball. I know that he never mentioned using a smaller ball on any of these threads. And I do not believe he did. So much so, that he spent money on a camera and time making a tool to seat the balls. He was only focused in redoing the seat and use the original size of ball. Had he tried my advice, he would have a working jack.

I think there is a saying that goes something like this: "He who does not heed advice does not get very far".

The size of the seat edge is very small, that is why it is called an edge, so a small difference in size of the ball can actually make the ball contact the seat in a place were it will provide a perfect seal. Of course, don't forget to tap the ball so the smaller ball forms a new seat edge.

So, I stand by my position. And it is not an opinion, for I have tried it before, as a last resort remedy, of course.

You say you have not tried it. You should try it, as an experiment, next time you have a problem seating a ball and then, please, tell everyone, if you feel like it, how it went.

I provide an alternative solution to a problem and anyone is invited to analyze it and decide if it is something they would like to try or not. It is up to them.

Thank goodness I have not said anything about splicing O-rings and gluing them back with Super Glues or CA to make O-rings of different sizes. I probably would be treated the same way Christopher Columbus was when he stated that the earth was round. Everybody knows the earth is flat, isn't it?

 

[Hiball]

Hook, line and sinker.

With a good bait, the fish always bite. Hungry fish I guess?

I think I should ask that person if he actually used a smaller ball. I know that he never mentioned using a smaller ball on any of these threads. And I do not believe he did. So much so, that he spent money on a camera and time making a tool to seat the balls. He was only focused in redoing the seat and use the original size of ball. Had he tried my advice, he would have a working jack.

I think there is a saying that goes something like this: "He who does not heed advice does not get very far".

The size of the seat edge is very small, that is why it is called an edge, so a small difference in size of the ball can actually make the ball contact the seat in a place were it will provide a perfect seal. Of course, don't forget to tap the ball so the smaller ball forms a new seat edge.

So, I stand by my position. And it is not an opinion, for I have tried it before, as a last resort remedy, of course.

You say you have not tried it. You should try it, as an experiment, next time you have a problem seating a ball and then, please, tell everyone, if you feel like it, how it went.

I provide an alternative solution to a problem and anyone is invited to analyze it and decide if it is something they would like to try or not. It is up to them.

Thank goodness I have not said anything about splicing O-rings and gluing them back with Super Glues or CA to make O-rings of different sizes. I probably would be treated the same way Christopher Columbus was when he stated that the earth was round. Everybody knows the earth is flat, isn't it?

I think your confusing me with yourself, Im open to Ideas and Suggestions and by all means if using a small ball is working for you there is no one here that can dispute that. I am not criticizing you... I only stated that I have "NEVER" in the hundreds or thousands of seats that I have cleaned up or re-seated needed to use a smaller ball.

I went back and reread my response and I see no reason for the Innuendo personal attack, If you are Angry with me Im truly sorry.

If you wish to talk about your theory im all ears.. but here is my Problem, If you create a New edge using a smaller ball and then revert back to the Normal sized ball you have now taken away the backbone of that seating area.. Correct? So is this a Temporary fix or something that will Last through thousands of cycles for a customer who paid to get his jack fixed.?

Yes.. They make splice together orings kits.. Not sure what your saying.

 

[Hiball]

Lets look at it this way since my Paint/Drawing skillz are ****.

Which of the 4 valve scenarios are you going to have if you attempt to use a smaller ball on a seat? Depending on the difference in size you will either be overseated or Heavily over seated. Agree? Assuming based off your past instructions you now need to remove the smaller ball and reseat with the Normal sized ball.. And maybe its just me but unless you intend on pounding the normal sized ball you have already removed under material and even if you do decide to just to Deepen the seating position you have now changed the sealing face of the ball. Again.. Im all Ears but I don't see how the Risk outweighs the reward, Once that metal is gone, Its not coming back.

 

[EDGAR]

Well, excuse me if I get touchy touchy, but there have been attempts to derail my train more than once by winds from the north. Garage Journal should not be like Youtube, where anything someone says or does receives negative comments from the so called haters. I hope you don't turn into one of those haters and say negative things about everything I post.

You have been just lucky that all the hundreds of jacks that you have repaired had good seats so you had no problems seating the balls. But what is going to happen the day you get one with bad seats and anything you do does not fix the seats? What is going to be your solution to this problem?

As I mentioned before, this is a last resort effort. Yes, the seat will be different for a ball of the original size if you wanted to go back. But, when it works, why would you go back to a ball of the original size? Just put the plug back and use the jack. If the ball is seated correctly, it should work as well as the original sized ball and it should last for whatever amount others seats last.

Persons pay to get their jacks working. They wants results. If the pump does not work with the original sized ball, for whatever reason, then resort to other methods of fixing it. Many jacks can not be fixed with original parts because, as you well know, there are no original parts to be found. Does that mean I have to tell the person that it is impossible to fix his jack because there are no original parts? I know of a local hydraulic repair shop that does that. They don't want to do anything to repair those jacks. Most imports jack that have been fixed in GJ have been repaired without original parts. I think this can be extended to other methods of fixing, within reason, of course.

Take for example the Snap On that still leaks; maintaining the same size ball has resulted in a non working jack after a lot of effort. Had he taken the jack to be repaired "professionally" he may had gotten his jack back still leaking or returned as non-repairable, for many shops are not equipped to redo seats or they don't want to do it. So what other alternatives he has? Maybe buy a milling machine and bits to redo the seats? Too expensive and no guarantee of results. The only solution left is to try another method and if it works, great, if it does not, take the jack to the scrap yard or sell the parts.

If things were always done with the same parts and no one wanted to try other methods, race cars, for example, would not exist for no parts could be changed or modified. And we would still be riding steam trains for no one would have dare to change things and build diesel or electric trains. Be grateful you don't have to shovel coals into a boiler (or wherever) because someone else though of a different way to do things.

 

[Hiball]

Well, excuse me if I get touchy touchy, but there have been attempts to derail my train more than once by winds from the north. Garage Journal should not be like Youtube, where anything someone says or does receives negative comments from the so called haters. I hope you don't turn into one of those haters and say negative things about everything I post.

You have been just lucky that all the hundreds of jacks that you have repaired had good seats so you had no problems seating the balls. But what is going to happen the day you get one with bad seats and anything you do does not fix the seats? What is going to be your solution to this problem?

As I mentioned before, this is a last resort effort. Yes, the seat will be different for a ball of the original size if you wanted to go back. But, when it works, why would you go back to a ball of the original size? Just put the plug back and use the jack. If the ball is seated correctly, it should work as well as the original sized ball and it should last for whatever amount others seats last.

Persons pay to get their jacks working. They wants results. If the pump does not work with the original sized ball, for whatever reason, then resort to other methods of fixing it. Many jacks can not be fixed with original parts because, as you well know, there are no original parts to be found. Does that mean I have to tell the person that it is impossible to fix his jack because there are no original parts? I know of a local hydraulic repair shop that does that. They don't want to do anything to repair those jacks. Most imports jack that have been fixed in GJ have been repaired without original parts. I think this can be extended to other methods of fixing, within reason, of course.

Take for example the Snap On that still leaks; maintaining the same size ball has resulted in a non working jack after a lot of effort. Had he taken the jack to be repaired "professionally" he may had gotten his jack back still leaking or returned as non-repairable, for many shops are not equipped to redo seats or they don't want to do it. So what other alternatives he has? Maybe buy a milling machine and bits to redo the seats? Too expensive and no guarantee of results. The only solution left is to try another method and if it works, great, if it does not, take the jack to the scrap yard or sell the parts.

If things were always done with the same parts and no one wanted to try other methods, race cars, for example, would not exist for no parts could be changed or modified. And we would still be riding steam trains for no one would have dare to change things and build diesel or electric trains. Be grateful you don't have to shovel coals into a boiler (or wherever) because someone else though of a different way to do things.

The only major issues I've had with seats is when people reassemble things in the wrong order and crease them or put big nicks in them and I have to make the call on trying to fix the issue with carbide tipped balls or it heads straight to the machine shop. It makes me cringe when someone Pm's me and explains how they used a punch and a big hammer to reseat the balls. It doesn't take a lot of force if any and 99% of the time I find they just need to be cleaned as they have rust forming etc. Unfortunately a lot of shops don't understand valve seats and or they like to use the term "re-cutting" as it's some big job that the average joe can't do with simple compound because they are trying to sell there service.. I get it.

If your intentions are a last ditch effort, due what you need too... I guess I have to look at things differently, because I have to answer to the customer if Mickey Mouse his jack. As you stated earlier, the sealing edge is very small, I still see no way of maintaining that edge by dropping a smaller ball in its place. The way I see it.. You now have not only increased the edge, but you have made the contact area higher on the face of the ball by deepening it.

I'm of too bed... But before I go, Please don't take a "difference of opinion" as I'm trying to show you up etc. I think you are a intelligent person, maybe a little long winded (lol) but god knows there is enough hydraulic need around here to support more than what me and you can provide. I will never know everything about hydraulic jacks and I still run into issues and call on friends in the business, as do they. I'm always looking to expand my knowledge of the newer designs as they intrigue me, sounds weird, hard to explain.. But GJ keeps me sharp mentally in regards to hydraulics, trouble shooting etc .

Now I'm off to bed..

 

[Stevenn1]

I wouldn't sweat it.. Sometimes if there is a pocket of air you will get a instant where the ball didn't seat, since it rectified itself on the next stroke I would call it good.

Really?
When i took it out of box, before the first use, i bled it according to the directions. Then after that is when the weird thing happened. I wonder if i should bleed it again? I was just afraid that when vehicle is up, about to place jack stands under car, the handle it pop up violently & bashing in the bottom of my plastic bumper. I was thinking i needed to swap it out for another one.

 

[Hiball]

Really?
When i took it out of box, before the first use, i bled it according to the directions. Then after that is when the weird thing happened. I wonder if i should bleed it again? I was just afraid that when vehicle is up, about to place jack stands under car, the handle it pop up violently & bashing in the bottom of my plastic bumper. I was thinking i needed to swap it out for another one.

If you notice it again, you can bleed it once more. Generally handle feedback "after" pressure has seated the upper ball (but seeps) is a slow and steady raise, versus a violent action. The issue you described earlier represents a upper ball that didn't seat at all, thus the cylinder pressure was immediately felt in the handle and i suspect it had some force. I will say this.. The newer jack based off your pictures has a different valve makeup, "If" it utilizes a cartridge type valve system under the pump pistons, they are undesirable and in "my" experience give bouts of seating issues like you described.

If its under warranty or within the exchange/return time frame maybe exchange it.. Dunno.

 

[Stevenn1]

An update.

XL35:
I bled the jack again according to the directions that came with it; open release, pump 10 fast full pumps, close release, raise jack all the way, lower all the way, & now it can be put under a load. I did several load tests & could not get it to duplicate the weird situation as before. Lots of fast pumps, slow pumps, and now my arm is tired. Nothing bad happened. I did a 10 minute hold test; handle stayed down, vehicle stayed up. The only thing i can complain about is that when pumping, the end of the handle can touch the ground. So dont have your hand on the very tip of the handle or you will smash your fingers.

AJ35:
I did the re-seat process a couple times. (I never did add oil like i said i was going to because of the spill. I wonder if some of the problem was that it was over-filled in the first place?) I then bled it real good. Did some tests. The only issue is the handle still raises a small bit at first. Nothing like it was before, coming up to rest on the bumper. Now with a vehicle raised, when i first let go of the handle, it immediately starts to come up 2" within the first 20 seconds. And thats it. A lot better then before. 10 minutes later, the handle has not moved anymore. So i would consider this a success. Thanks to all that helped.

 

[Dntwnbro]

Hiball I have the same jack (Arcan AJ 35, 3.5 ton) and would like to find a parts diagram fot it. I need valve parts for sure and not sure about seal kit yet.
Thank You for whatever you can help with.

 

[Dntwnbro]

Hiball I have the same jack (Arcan AJ 35, 3.5 ton) and would like to find a parts diagram fot it. I need valve parts for sure and not sure about seal kit yet.
Thank You for whatever you can help with.

 

[Hiball]

Hiball I have the same jack (Arcan AJ 35, 3.5 ton) and would like to find a parts diagram fot it. I need valve parts for sure and not sure about seal kit yet.
Thank You for whatever you can help with.

It Appears Edgar linked a Diagram of the Hydraulic Unit in post #3.