Another Manual Switch Install thread

[AP514]

Hey ALL

Well the Wife has been on me for the last few week to get the Manual Transfer Switch bought and installed.

So, I am thinking of getting this Switch and changing out the wiring so it is longer. http://www.steadypower.com/products.php?product=Reliance-RA306A-Outdoor-Transfer-Switch-%2830A%29

The problem I have is I want to power circuits in 2 separate 200 amp panels.
(see pics)
I see the Main panel outside is Bonded. (Bar - Neutral to Ground)
The outside panel will have 2 circuits and the inside will have the rest (4)

If I can I will run wiring from Manual Switch to the outside Big single CB
panel.(3rd pic) Then run wiring in with the Large Wires going to the inside Panel.(1st pic lower Rt-hole(pic2)) The 2 outside Circuits will run the same way but come out the inside panel to the outside (pic1 lower L/H -hole...not sure this is LEGAL

 

[theoldwizard1]

Which panel is first, which one is second and which one is third ? Are any "double tapped" off the meter ?

The simplest solution is to install a generator interlock on the FIRST panel. It is up to you to "manage the load" for everything downstream.

 

[AP514]

Sorry..But I guess I did not explain well on how that Manual Transfer is set up.
The Transfer Switch has 6 switches 1 for each circuit.
All 3 position - Line, Off, Generator So you never have to turn your Mains OFF for generator use.
As far as what is first, second, third...
1) Meter
2) Gang Box -that takes wires from meter splits them off to the 2 Main Panels(sorry no Pic)
3) Outside Main Panel is pic 4(last above)
4) Outside C/B Panel only has the 1-200Amp C/B in it(pic 3). Wires go main inside Panel
5) Inside Panel (pic 1)

"Double Tapped"? not sure? going to have to explain that term to me....

 

[theoldwizard1]

As far as what is first, second, third...
1) Meter
2) Gang Box -that takes wires from meter splits them off to the 2 Main Panels(sorry no Pic)
3) Outside Main Panel is pic 4(last above)
4) Outside C/B Panel only has the 1-200Amp C/B in it(pic 3). Wires go main inside Panel
5) Inside Panel (pic 1)

I believe in KISS !

• Get rid of the "gang box". Run the cable from the meter directly into your "outside main" (pic #4 ... was that originally a 3 phase box ?) This box appears to be "bonded", but I can not tell if it has ground rods attached.
• Install a generator interlock on this panel.
• Get rid of the outside C/B panel. Not required. (It was only required because the inside panel did not have a main breaker. The next step fixes that.)
• Run cable from the inside panel directly to a breaker in the outside panel

 

[AP514]

The above KISS post is Not KISS...Do not want or need to rip out half my electrical System to put in a Manual Transfer Switch.
Really not looking to spend that kind of money to hook up a Simple Manual Transfer Switch setup.

1) The OP is to figure out if it is legal to run the Wiring like I had planned.
2) What problems I might run into ? does the inside panel have to be Bonded ?

I plan to put Transfer Switch next to the Panel on Left.(pic)

 

[theoldwizard1]

If THIS is your goal ...

The problem I have is I want to power circuits in 2 separate 200 amp panels.

... then my proposed solution IS the simplest !

That horizontal box that you called a "gang box" is more correctly referred to as a wiring trough or a wiring gutter. Leave as is.

Get rid of the box on the far left because the feed to the inside load center (breaker panel) will go into a breaker in the outside load center as will the generator interlock.

The only thing to replace is the feed from the outside load cent to the inside load center.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Okay, staring at your pictures more ...

Where does the feed for this circuit breaker

come from ? That junction is no longer considered legal. It should be 4 wires (2 hot, neutral and ground) after the first disconnect.

What is inside the 2 downward conduits from the trough and the conduit heading off to the left ?

 

[theoldwizard1]

In your outside load center

Why is that triple breaker in the green circle ? And what is that fourth breaker ?

What does the double breaker in the red circle feed ? If it feed the circuit breaker (in the left hand box) going to the inside load center then you can eliminate that it and most the changes I proposed are done !

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sorry..But I guess I did not explain well on how that Manual Transfer is set up.
The Transfer Switch has 6 switches 1 for each circuit.
All 3 position - Line, Off, Generator So you never have to turn your Mains OFF for generator use.
As far as what is first, second, third...
1) Meter
2) Gang Box -that takes wires from meter splits them off to the 2 Main Panels(sorry no Pic)
3) Outside Main Panel is pic 4(last above)
4) Outside C/B Panel only has the 1-200Amp C/B in it(pic 3). Wires go to main inside Panel
5) Inside Panel (pic 1)

"Double Tapped"? not sure? going to have to explain that term to me....

ok so since you have a 200a breaker feeding the inside panel, the inside panel is NOT a main service panel. it is a subpanel. ALL PANELS after the main service panel or first means of disconnect are subpanels and need to have an isolated neutral bar and 4-wire feeder.

Whoever installed this made it more complicated than it had to be. I wouldve fed the inside panel off of the outside panel

anyways, if you remove the 200a main breaker, you could put in a manual service rated transfer switch. Then feed both panels from the TS and change the outside panel to a subpanel...

A double tapped breaker has 2 wires under one lug

 

[AP514]

here is a diagram I thru together real fast.
The wires from the Single 200 Amp C/B go back down thru Gang box into panel inside.
So, I guess the Panel inside is considered a sub panel ??(No gang/bonding bar)

The (green) C/B 200 Amp - why 4 ? ? No Idea. All 4 are linked together
the (Red) C/B 100 Amp - goes to the GARAGE.

The 2 pipes going down. Pool and Septic

Why the separate C/B 200 Amp outside. I think we ran out of room on inside panel.
Electrical guy went C/B crazy.. Seems dam near every Switch and outlet have C/B's :O
Maybe paranoid because my house is STEEL FRAME...
and TY for Double Tapped answer..

 

[wyliesdiesels]

In your outside load center

Why is that triple breaker in the green circle ? And what is that fourth breaker ?

What does the double breaker in the red circle feed ? If it feed the circuit breaker (in the left hand box) going to the inside load center then you can eliminate that it and most the changes I proposed are done !

that is NOT a triple and a single breaker. its is a 4-space 200a main for the outside panel. all 4 handles are tied together.

That double breaker does NOT feed the indoor load center. The 200a single breaker feeds the inside load center. read his description a little slower

 

[wyliesdiesels]

here is a diagram I thru together real fast.
The wires from the Single 200 Amp C/B go back down thru Gang box into panel inside.
So, I guess the Panel inside is considered a sub panel ??(No gang/bonding bar)

The (green) C/B 200 Amp - why 4 ? ? No Idea. All 4 are linked together
the (Red) C/B 100 Amp - goes to the GARAGE.

The 2 pipes going down. Pool and Septic

Why the separate C/B 200 Amp outside. I think we ran out of room on inside panel.
Electrical guy went C/B crazy.. Seems dam near every Switch and outlet have C/B's :O
Maybe paranoid because my house is STEEL FRAME...
and TY for Double Tapped answer..

yes the inside panel is a subpanel but if it had a dedicated space for a main, running out of branch breaker space would not matter in terms of fitting in a main...

the 200a breaker is so you dont have unfused wire going inside to the inside subpanel.

 

[AP514]

So, I guess I am back to the Original Question. TF switch has 6 circuits
1) The 1 C/B is in the Outside Main.
2) The 5 C/B's are in the inside sub panel.
3) the Manual Transfer Switch will have these 6 Circuits isolated when EACH TF switch is in the Gen position.(so if power returns they will still be humming along on the Gen. until I put EACH TF switches back into the Line Position.)
4) I know how to connect the Power wires from the TF switches.... but the 1 GROUND ?(from TF Switch Box) Should it go to the Green(Ground) on bonded Main Panel or go to the Green(Ground) on the Sub Panel ??
Will it Matter??
5) the 1 TF switch circuit going to the outside panel will have to go thru the inside panel to get to the outside panel. Is this OK. (code)
Will I have a problem with the Circuits being on 2 Panels ?
Is it legal ?

 

[Colorado Squarebody]

Hello I am going to Weigh in here. The transfer switch you want to install comes pre-wired. I wasn't real happy with their instructions. It would be nice to see a one-line drawing for the Switch. Because your bond ,neutral, ground,and power are common to both panels. You do not have any issues. Make sure to ground to one panel and neutral to the same panel. Run your normal to the correct color wires and you load to the correct color wires.If you have to extend your wiring make sure to use the same size wire that goes to each circuit.If you need to extend the neutral and ground from the transfer switch make sure to use the same size wire as well.
I hope this can help clear things up a bit
Landon

 

[theoldwizard1]

Duplicate

 

[theoldwizard1]

that is NOT a triple and a single breaker. its is a 4-space 200a main for the outside panel. all 4 handles are tied together.

Okay. I have not seen that before !

That double breaker does NOT feed the indoor load center. The 200a single breaker feeds the inside load center. read his description a little slower

So inside the trough, the feed to the inside load center is just spliced off of the feed from the meter ? Need a pic inside the trough.

ok so since you have a 200a breaker feeding the inside panel, the inside panel is NOT a main service panel. it is a subpanel. ALL PANELS after the main service panel or first means of disconnect are subpanels and need to have an isolated neutral bar and 4-wire feeder.

Whoever installed this made it more complicated than it had to be. I wouldve fed the inside panel off of the outside panel.

So there is NO SINGLE DISCONNECT FOR THE ENTIRE BUILDING AND OUT BUILDINGS. Does one for interior and one for exterior meet code ?

Where would install the ground rod and start the 4 wire cable ?

 

[nadogail]

In the community where I learned English a “GANG BOX” is where the individual tool boxes of a Work Gang store their tools.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So inside the trough, the feed to the inside load center is just spliced off of the feed from the meter? Need a pic inside the trough.

NO! Read his explanation again.

The meter feed splits off to the outside 200a CB and the outside main panel. The 200a CB then feeds the inside subpanel.

So there is NO SINGLE DISCONNECT FOR THE ENTIRE BUILDING AND OUT BUILDINGS. Does one for interior and one for exterior meet code?

correct. yes it meets code. all the disconnects are grouped....

Where would he install the ground rods and start the 4 wire cable?

The GEC from the rods and the bonding wires for plumbing, need to go to both the 200a CB and the outside main panel.

In the community where I learned English a “GANG BOX” is where the individual tool boxes of a Work Gang store their tools.

yeah its not a gang box. wire trough or gutter is the correct term....

 

[AP514]

The GEC from the rods and the bonding wires for plumbing, need to go to both the 200a CB and the outside main panel.

So, are you saying the ground needs to be on the single 200a C/B ?? you lost me here..

yeah its not a gang box. wire trough or gutter is the correct term....

Sorry my bad on the term....But as usual guys here set me on the correct path.
I would take a Pic of the Trough but it is raining here for the week.

Hello I am going to Weigh in here. The transfer switch you want to install comes pre-wired. I wasn't real happy with their instructions. It would be nice to see a one-line drawing for the Switch. Because your bond ,neutral, ground,and power are common to both panels. You do not have any issues. Make sure to ground to one panel and neutral to the same panel. Run your normal to the correct color wires and you load to the correct color wires.If you have to extend your wiring make sure to use the same size wire that goes to each circuit.If you need to extend the neutral and ground from the transfer switch make sure to use the same size wire as well.
I hope this can help clear things up a bit

Yes I think the wires are too short on the Switch. So, I am having the Manufacture make them longer(if Price is not too much-If so I will rewire it myself). It is 5 week lead time right now due to Covid/Hurricane season.
Thanks for the ANSWER on the Install question. I plan on Grounding and Neutral the TF switch on the inside panel.
I just looked at this UTUBE video on the install. Not exact panel but close.

 

[theoldwizard1]

NO! Read his explanation again.

The meter feed splits off to the outside 200a CB and the outside main panel. The 200a CB then feeds the inside subpanel.

Okay, I'm blind. Where is the feed from the outside panel (pic below) to the single breaker that feeds the inside panel ?

 

[AP514]

Okay, I'm blind. Where is the feed from the outside panel (pic below) to the single breaker that feeds the inside panel ?

From the trough. Splitter in there.
Have a LOOK at POST #10 and #13

Here is diagram again

 

[AP514]

The Dealer would not let me add length to the wires when Manufacturing the TF switch. So, if the wires are short I will just have to rewire it.

Oh 1 more Question..is my service considered a 320 Amp service or 200 Amp ??

 

[theoldwizard1]

I still say, get rid of the 200A circuit breaker and wire the inside panel directly to a breaker in the outside panel. A breaker and four 10' wires.

If you use a generator interlock on the outside panel EVERY CIRCUIT COULD BE USED WITH THE GENERATOR with no additional wiring.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Okay, I'm blind. Where is the feed from the outside panel (pic below) to the single breaker that feeds the inside panel?

Thats because youre looking in the wrong place. the outside panel and 200a breaker for inside panel are fed from the meter feed that is split in the wire trough. there is no picture of this... he just explained it. go back and reread everything again.

the outside panel doesnt feed the 200a breaker. That wouldnt make sense...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The Dealer would not let me add length to the wires when Manufacturing the TF switch. So, if the wires are short I will just have to rewire it.

Oh 1 more Question..is my service considered a 320 Amp service or 200 Amp ??

My guess is you have a 200a service. that meter pan is too small for a 400a/320a service. They are much bigger than that and often have dual lugs. This is why you have a split in the wire trough instead of both sets of service entrance conductors going into the meter pan.

Does your meter say CL200? if so then its a 200a meter. Take a closeup pic of it and post it here.

 

[AP514]

My guess is you have a 200a service. that meter pan is too small for a 400a/320a service. They are much bigger than that and often have dual lugs. This is why you have a split in the wire trough instead of both sets of service entrance conductors going into the meter pan.

Does your meter say CL200? if so then its a 200a meter. Take a closeup pic of it and post it here.

Thanks your replies have been very helpful.
I will post a Pic of the meter as soon as this want a be hurricane (Beta) passes Houston...

 

[theoldwizard1]

Thats because youre looking in the wrong place. the outside panel and 200a breaker for inside panel are fed from the meter feed that is split in the wire trough. there is no picture of this... he just explained it. go back and reread everything again.

the outside panel doesnt feed the 200a breaker. That wouldnt make sense...

But this does !

I still say, get rid of the 200A circuit breaker and wire the inside panel directly to a breaker in the outside panel.

 

[AP514]

1 last Question..(I hope)
I will be using a L14-30 30a cord to connect to Manual Transfer Switch
my Generator is Neutral Bonded


Should the Neutral Bond (on the Generator) be disconnected when I hook up to the manual transfer switch ? Will it matter ?
Transfer Switch-- Both Neutral and the Ground Wires will be connected to my Main Panel (Bonded Panel) on the Neutral Bar.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

the neutral bond on the generator needs to be disconnected IF the transfer switch DOESNT disconnect the neutral bond at the main service panel.

You should not have more than one neutral bond on a service

 

[AP514]

That is what I thought. My Problem is 2 circuits from the Manual Transfer Switch will be in the Main Bonded panel and the other 6 Circuits are in the House (Sub) Panel.
MY PLAN is to UNBOND the GENERATOR Is this correct ?
Actually I think it is unbond the NEUTRAL.

I think this Diagram shows what I plan on doing. ( Note went with an 8 Circuit Switch )