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another pole barn question

65cayne

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Sep 26, 2010
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Oklahoma
Hello everybody, new guy here...

I am drawing up plans for a 30ft wide by 35ft deep pole barn with 10/12 pitch roof. Front and rear 10Hx13W sliding barn doors, and a 13ft wide (12ft between edge of barn and post) carport/overhang on one side. Walls will be 12ft, attic trusses up top for room upstairs.

My question (first of many) relates to the horizontal boards that run around the structure (gurts?). I have seen them nailed to the outside of the poles, and I have seen them toe-nailed between the posts so they are flush with the outer edge.

Is this just a matter of preference or is there an advantage of doing one over the other? It is easier (for me) to go between the posts but I stink at toe-nailing boards.

I'll try to get some plans posted later today...thanks. By the way, this is in Oklahoma if anyone has any location specific advice (framing, anchoring, construction supply outlets, etc...)
 
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Shadowdog500

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Down the shore
Hello everybody, new guy here...

I am drawing up plans for a 30ft wide by 35ft deep pole barn with 10/12 pitch roof. Front and rear 10Hx13W sliding barn doors, and a 13ft wide (12ft between edge of barn and post) carport/overhang on one side. Walls will be 12ft, attic trusses up top for room upstairs.

My question (first of many) relates to the horizontal boards that run around the structure (gurts?). I have seen them nailed to the outside of the poles, and I have seen them toe-nailed between the posts so they are flush with the outer edge.

Is this just a matter of preference or is there an advantage of doing one over the other? It is easier (for me) to go between the posts but I stink at toe-nailing boards.

I'll try to get some plans posted later today...thanks. By the way, this is in Oklahoma if anyone has any location specific advice (framing, anchoring, construction supply outlets, etc...)


Welcome to the forum!

I really don't know which is better, but they laid long 20' boards around the outside of the poles on my Morton Building.

You may want to talk to your construction official about local specific local advice since they will probably have wind load, anchoring, snow load, etc requirements. I don't know how the official is in your area, but the guy in my township is willing to work with you and would probably tell you how deep poles have to be for our area. etc.

Chris
 
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65cayne

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Oklahoma
Thanks for the welcome Chris.

Yes I will check with local officials but I dont think I will have any issues. I am using 6x6 poles all the way around, about 8' on center, sunk and anchored to a concrete footing. Planning a 2"x12" to wrap the base, 2"x4" around the sides 24" vertical spacing (maybe 16"), and a 12" LVL beam notched and bolted into the top of the posts.

10/12 pitch attic trusses will be 16" on center and strapped to the LVL in addition to nailing. Two stiffener will be put in tying all the trusses together and there will be a third LVL beam running underneath, down the center of the garage.

Siding is up in the air....thinking either T-1-11 (?) or pine shiplap siding.

Roof is up in the air too (pardon the pun)...havent decided between metal or asphalt shingles.

I know I wont get it exactly right, but I am shooting for a mid 1800's look and feel on the exterior. I'll probably miss it by a mile but I am gonna try anyway...it's all in the details. Additional features...sliding doors, cupola, small 6-pane windows, and a second story access door.
 
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65cayne

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first try at posting my concept drawing...looks like it worked...sized it a little smaller than I thought.
For size perspective...its about 11'6" to the eave, and about 7'6" under the overhang. Sliding door is about 10' by 13' wide. All drawn in MS Excel.
 

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Shadowdog500

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Here it is a little bigger.

Looks good! We had a guy around here pull off the 1800's western look on a large shed that they built behind the real 1800's house that they were restoring. I believe they used something like 1"X8" or 10" boards laid horizontal like pine shiplap siding for the exterior siding.

attachment.php
 

larry_g

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oregon
http://www.mwbsc.biz/html/bldmodel.html

Above is a model from the company I bought my kit from. It shows a lot of different ways that you can construct a building. I had a mix of commercial and flat girts in my building. The commercial girts have blocking between the ends nailed to the post so it is not all toenailing. I would suggest trying to find a pole building company in your area andhaving a sitdown with them. With M&W I was able to sit down with them, go over design and construction details, have a custom drawing made, engineered stamps, and building permit approved. They delivered a kit to the site and all we had to do was put it together. Looking back I should have had them also erect the building as it would have been a lot quicker, and about the same cost.

For the people in the NW I can recommend M&W as a good company. The drawings were good and the materials (lumber) were of a much higher grade than you can get at the local HD.

lg
no neat sig line
 

dcovey

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Kempner, TX
I just had a company out of Oklahoma build my pole barn. Rob Bilt I was very peased with their prices and work..They sent me the drawings for my build so I figure they have someone that could take your drawing and figure out what you need..
I know they put the girts on the outside of the poles on mine. Give them a call and see what they say. Heck they will sell you the materials even if they didn't build it. It took two working days for them to build mine..

My Texas Shop..

Dave
 
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65cayne

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Oklahoma
Okay another question and another picture...

Purlins...are they necessary all the time or just for metal roofs?

My trusses will be 16" on center. Figure if I go with shingles, I'll lay down some 1/2" plywood directly on the trusses. No need for purlins.

Here is an overhead of my planned build and a shot of how I plan to anchor the posts. I am considering using post protectors or something similar. All feedback welcome. I'll post the elevation in a day or so, I need to make a small change to it.

Still havent found a happy medium for picture size. Sorry if that is hard to read.
-Kevin
 

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65cayne

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Oklahoma
I just had a company out of Oklahoma build my pole barn. Rob Bilt I was very peased with their prices and work..They sent me the drawings for my build so I figure they have someone that could take your drawing and figure out what you need..
I know they put the girts on the outside of the poles on mine. Give them a call and see what they say. Heck they will sell you the materials even if they didn't build it. It took two working days for them to build mine..

My Texas Shop..

Dave

that scale model on his website is pretty neat.
 

dcovey

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Kempner, TX
Okay another question and another picture...

Purlins...are they necessary all the time or just for metal roofs?

My trusses will be 16" on center. Figure if I go with shingles, I'll lay down some 1/2" plywood directly on the trusses. No need for purlins.

Here is an overhead of my planned build and a shot of how I plan to anchor the posts. I am considering using post protectors or something similar. All feedback welcome. I'll post the elevation in a day or so, I need to make a small change to it.

Still havent found a happy medium for picture size. Sorry if that is hard to read.
-Kevin

If you are putting your trusses on 16" centers, I would think you would be like a house. Sheathing, paper and shingles.

Dave
 

Dewaynep

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I spoke with our local pole barn builder a while back. He puts the girts in between the posts, uses 2x6 also. He said it will make it easier to insulate and get a more airtight building. I would agree that putting them in-between the posts would make it easier to use fiberglass insulation batts, but if you sprayed in foam insulation it wouldn't matter. Also he said it was easier to finish the inside because you don't have to construct an inside wall to finish it off with wallboard. It seems to me it is harder for the builder to do this, so he must have some good reasons for doing it that way. Makes sense to me.
 

larry_g

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oregon
Okay another question and another picture...

Purlins...are they necessary all the time or just for metal roofs?

My trusses will be 16" on center. Figure if I go with shingles, I'll lay down some 1/2" plywood directly on the trusses. No need for purlins.

Here is an overhead of my planned build and a shot of how I plan to anchor the posts. I am considering using post protectors or something similar. All feedback welcome. I'll post the elevation in a day or so, I need to make a small change to it.

Still havent found a happy medium for picture size. Sorry if that is hard to read.
-Kevin

That post detail would not work here. Here they require a 4' deep 2' dia hole with 6" pad on the bottom with backfill of concrete around the post. I would suggest you confirm what is needed there. Have you set down with a pole building company to glean ideas and requirements for your area? It looks to me that your almost defeating the purpose of a pole building with all the lumber that your putting in. How does the cost of your building compare convential foundation with stud walls?

lg
no neat sig line
 

Possum

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KS
I would put the girts between the posts on 2' centers. Then you are ready to finish inside and out with several different options. Plus, this way you are not relying on a couple of face nails on the post to take the forces from things like wind, but the boards themselves. With out getting long winded, I will say it makes a hell of a difference. I build my pole barn the traditional way, then went back as an after thought and toe nailed 2x6 in between the posts, also nailing through the 2x4 girt on the face. The difference in rigidity and resisting of twisting was drastic.

As far as doing concrete footings, plus brackets, plus post protectors, plus galvanized or stainless hardware at each post - why not use something like a permacolum http://www.permacolumn.com/ or actual footings? I would bet the money gets close.

Also, 24-36 inches may be close to your frost line depth depending where you are in OK. You will want the post to go below that to resist heaving.
 
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65cayne

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Oklahoma
I spoke with our local pole barn builder a while back. He puts the girts in between the posts, uses 2x6 also. He said it will make it easier to insulate and get a more airtight building. I would agree that putting them in-between the posts would make it easier to use fiberglass insulation batts, but if you sprayed in foam insulation it wouldn't matter. Also he said it was easier to finish the inside because you don't have to construct an inside wall to finish it off with wallboard. It seems to me it is harder for the builder to do this, so he must have some good reasons for doing it that way. Makes sense to me.

This agrees with all the research I have done, more air tight, easier to finish the inside, 2x6 strong backs make great shelves too, plus nailing the sheath fluch against the posts is supposed to be stronger (according to what I've read and what Possum said above).
 
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65cayne

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Oklahoma
That post detail would not work here. Here they require a 4' deep 2' dia hole with 6" pad on the bottom with backfill of concrete around the post. I would suggest you confirm what is needed there. Have you set down with a pole building company to glean ideas and requirements for your area? It looks to me that your almost defeating the purpose of a pole building with all the lumber that your putting in. How does the cost of your building compare convential foundation with stud walls?

lg
no neat sig line

I am actually overseas right now, but I plan on getting everything approved when I get back of course. We dont get much ground penetrating frost, but I can adjust depth/width easy enough.
I haven't priced out the whole design yet but I dont think it's more than a conventional building. If you think it is overkill in areas, let me know. I designed it all myself and I am no expert. I went 16" OC on the attic trusses so I could have a room upstairs.
 
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MN BIANCHI

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Moorhead, Minnesota
This is what the inside of my building looked like before the sheeting went on.

Nov25002Medium.jpg


This wall is actually an interior dividing wall between the 12 foot high shop and the 16 foot high storage section. The girts are 2 x 6's and are placed every 2 ft on both sides of the posts. You can not see it in the photo, but there is a 2 x 6 between the posts at the top and bottom that lays flat and is toe nailed into the posts.
 
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65cayne

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Bianchi,
I cant see your picture for some reason, just the littl red x. :headscrat


Possum,
looks like those columns would add roughly $700 to my budget. Looking at what you get, I may consider that route depending on where my final dollar figure comes in. Both methods will work, but those definitely seem superior.
 
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65cayne

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Oklahoma
To make your jumps scarier, drape saddle pad, coats, or blankets over the jumps. you could also place a hay bale or bags of shavings under it. But i suggest free jumping your horse over them first, just in case he freaks out a first, so you don't get hurt.

hmm...I dont own any horses
 

yimbo

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Jan 31, 2009
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Brighton, Il
I put 2x4 girts on the outside of my 6x6 posts. On the inside I put 2x4s horizontally on edge in the middle of each girt between the 6x6s and screwd them in from the outside. This will allow me to run my insulation horizontally instead of building an additional wall inside to run my insulation vertically, plus I ran my wiring along the girt and behind the 6x6s and keeping it at the same girt hieght so I'll know where not to cut through the wall from the out side.
 

mkbrower

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Foot Hills of North Carolina
Hi, I built my with 6X6 posts using 2X6 toenailed between the post mainly to keep the posts from twisting and used 2X4s nailed to the outside of the post centered on the 2X6s. I then laminated the outside of the post with 2X6's so all the 2X4's would be flush to give the siding more support. May be a little overkill but it is a super strong frame. My intention was to use only the 2X4 girts but after one of my post started to twist, I added the 2X6's between the post to resist the twisting of the 6X6 post. All the extra shelving was a bonus.


Mark

IMG_6049.JPG
 
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65cayne

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Oklahoma
Hi, I built my with 6X6 posts using 2X6 toenailed between the post mainly to keep the posts from twisting and used 2X4s nailed to the outside of the post centered on the 2X6s. I then laminated the outside of the post with 2X6's so all the 2X4's would be flush to give the siding more support. May be a little overkill but it is a super strong frame. My intention was to use only the 2X4 girts but after one of my post started to twist, I added the 2X6's between the post to resist the twisting of the 6X6 post. All the extra shelving was a bonus.


Mark

IMG_6049.JPG

Hi Mark,
I've decided to go a similar route with mine with the difference being I'll have 2x4 (one edge) toe nailed flush with the edge of the post (long side facing out) and then toe nailing a horizontal 2x6 above the 2x4 and nailing them together. Should be rock solid and provide plenty of shelf space.

-Kevin
 

onewaydave

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I'm just a backyard carpenter, so...

I noted that a friend's pole barn had the outside applied 2x and that he ran his electrical between the skin and the poles horizontally. One would have to either drip fromthe ceiling or drill holes in the posts to do that with toe nailed 2xs.

O also looked at your sketches. I'm sure youre measurements are correct but I have a 30x36x10 and if it were placed on a 12 wall, it would look more tall and skinny than your drawings did to me. Maybe it is my perspective.

Anyway, looking forward to whatever you do.

Dave.
 
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65cayne

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Oklahoma
I'm just a backyard carpenter, so...

I noted that a friend's pole barn had the outside applied 2x and that he ran his electrical between the skin and the poles horizontally. One would have to either drip fromthe ceiling or drill holes in the posts to do that with toe nailed 2xs.

O also looked at your sketches. I'm sure youre measurements are correct but I have a 30x36x10 and if it were placed on a 12 wall, it would look more tall and skinny than your drawings did to me. Maybe it is my perspective.

Anyway, looking forward to whatever you do.

Dave.

Hi Dave,
Yeah, not too worried about the elctrical. I could either drill through the 2x6 or just run down the front of the post. I'd have an outlet every 9' that way.

On the drawings, I just looked at another build on here, 30x40 on a 12.5ft wall, and it defintely looks taller in pictures than my drawings would have you believe. I drew it in excel and eyeballed the grid pattern. I think I might have missed the mark on row height or column width but every square represents 1ft. That is also a 10/12 pitch too which might make the walls appear smaller.

-Kevin
 

popcorn-guy

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Sonoma County, CA
Thanks for the welcome Chris.

Yes I will check with local officials but I dont think I will have any issues. I am using 6x6 poles all the way around, about 8' on center, sunk and anchored to a concrete footing. Planning a 2"x12" to wrap the base, 2"x4" around the sides 24" vertical spacing (maybe 16"), and a 12" LVL beam notched and bolted into the top of the posts.

10/12 pitch attic trusses will be 16" on center and strapped to the LVL in addition to nailing. Two stiffener will be put in tying all the trusses together and there will be a third LVL beam running underneath, down the center of the garage.

Siding is up in the air....thinking either T-1-11 (?) or pine shiplap siding.

Roof is up in the air too (pardon the pun)...havent decided between metal or asphalt shingles.

I know I wont get it exactly right, but I am shooting for a mid 1800's look and feel on the exterior. I'll probably miss it by a mile but I am gonna try anyway...it's all in the details. Additional features...sliding doors, cupola, small 6-pane windows, and a second story access door.


Here are some things to consider. One is to protect your poles for as long as possible. I decided that when I built a new and very expensive fence that I wanted the posts to darn near be forever. I came up with the idea of using the material that a lot of companies use for pick-up beds to coat the lower portion and about 6" above ground level to protect them from ground contact as well as the concrete that surrounded them. I went to Pep Boys and purchased a pick-up bed kit and some additional bed material and coated my posts and the bottom portion of the 2X12 kickers that would have ground contact. The material had the ground up rubber in it and wasn't easy to use, but it certainly provided a seal on the redwood.

http://www.cotelind.com/ This is what I have gone to after the above experience. I order their DuraBak blk smooth (w/o rubber granules) in 1 gal containers. It's a polyeurathane. Best way to apply it, imho, is with disposable "chip" brushes and throw them away after completing your work for the day. I've treated one sign post with this product and it goes on quite easily even though it is heavy in consistancy. Everyone in the trades that sees the material thinks it's one of the best ideas that they have come across lately. Most have never thought of it and I could see that they had logged it in their memory banks. Polyurea is another product that I believe might be considered. http://www.rocksolidfloors.com/home.html This being one company that provides it.

For the stability of the poles, Big Foot forms ( http://www.bigfootsystems.com/ ) are worth considering. As pole barns are designed to esentially move with the wind and earth movements having their root end stable will keep them from shifting (unnecessay amounts) and allow the poles to bend accordingly to their loads.

Another product to consider if you are going with a "shiplap" siding or say a panel and batt covering is the "Hardie Board" material. A cementatious board of concrete and fiberglass mat. It doesn't rot, warp, check, etc., and it takes paint/stain like nobodys business and outlasts other paint proceedures by a long way. I'm sure that there are others, but here's their web site as well. http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowne...ogle_Adwords&gclid=CJq6jcP2uaQCFRj4iAodmSfO7Q

What little I know about the construction of pole bldg's, I had noted that everything that I had read indicated that round poles gave the best performance, but square poles would work but did not perform as well but did have the advantage of easier building. I would think that it would not matter in some locales as they may not have as severe weather as others, such as on the coast of an ocean or in high altitude mountains where it gets extreme.

I hope the above may help and the best to you. :beer:
 
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65cayne

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... I came up with the idea of using the material that a lot of companies use for pick-up beds to coat the lower portion and about 6" above ground level to protect them from ground contact as well as the concrete that surrounded them. ...

... Big Foot forms ( http://www.bigfootsystems.com/ ) are worth considering. ...

Another product to consider if you are going with a "shiplap" siding or say a panel and batt covering is the "Hardie Board" material. ...

That's all great advice popcorn guy. I especially like the idea of using bedliner coating on the pole. Very simple and seems like it would be very effective.

I'll look into the forms as nothing is set in concrete yet (pun intended).

I am still mulling over siding. It just occured to me that just prior to buying my property that we had two grass fires blaze through there in a two year period. I either need to put a faux rock foundation (i.e. fire resistant) skirting around the bottom, or use something less flammable like the hardie board or even metal (not my fav). Wood all the way to the ground is not going to let me sleep soundly.

Thankfully time is on my side. I just need to not "overthink" it.:headscrat
 
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65cayne

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So...I have a few more questions/comments...

1) Can an attic truss span 30 feet without the center LVL beam shown in my layout (see post #8) ?

2) Has anyone installed a "faux rock foundation" on there barn/garage that would be willing to post some pictures?

3) comment...I decided to extend the barn one foot to make it 36. Wont hardly cost anything and I will just re-distribute the posts.

4) contemplating a metal roof, wood siding with the faux rock "foundation"...opinions? Pro's or cons? I am thinking that with a metal roof, I could put the trusses at LEAST 24" OC and maybe 48" OC and run purlins (correct term?) along the roof to use as nailers. I would still have joists 16" OC in between the trusses to maintain my loft area. I am also thinking that I would have to retain the center LVL beam that I asked about in question #1. What do you think?

5) I am thinking I could take all my plans to an engineer and have them take care of these questions but I like the interaction on this forum (and it's free). I hope you guys dont mind.
 
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