Antiseize on spark plugs?
- Thread starter czgunner
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bmwohio
Well-known member
This ^^
...and this ^^
Not a professional wrencher, but have been changing spark plugs since before I could drive a car. Mainly work, drive, and race german cars and have never put anti-seize on them. It can limit the spark, as Stick said, and acts as an insulator. Just be careful putting them in, don't cross-thread, and use a torque wrench for the best fit.
Just my .02
volvo420coupe
Well-known member
My mentor at Volvo dealer I worked at years ago summed it up best, "If God wanted anti sieze on those threads he would have put it there from the factory.".
After all, O2 sensors come with anti-sieze on the threads, Why would Bosh feel it important enough to include with O2 sensors and not sparkplugs.
After all, O2 sensors come with anti-sieze on the threads, Why would Bosh feel it important enough to include with O2 sensors and not sparkplugs.
Packard V8
Well-known member
When manufacturers went to 50-100kmi plug changes, long after the warranty expired, they created nightmares for the owner and the techs who had to deal with the mess. The Ford mod/Triton engines almost always have plugs seized in the head, so much so many independent shops won't touch a plug change on them. Rare to get them all out without breaking one.
jack vines
jack vines
Nissan has switched from putting anti-seize on the sparkplugs to--- do not put anything on them. The end of the sparkplug that hangs into the combustion chamber also does not have any threads on it( the threads stop before the end). It has been working very well with no thread damage. With anti-seize on the plugs, I've had the issue of it being dry and galled the threads---the plugs would not even turn a little before the threads were damaged. We have been told for years to ant-seize with very mixed results. It has been going very good without it--------
Fedwrench
ALLIANCE MEMBER
We must live a charmed life in our little fleet shop then as we don't change them until 80k, and we manage to get them out without breaking them. However, we do perform a decarb first, follow the TSB to the letter, and don't rush things. I think the plug design ***** but, many of the broken plugs may come more from flat rate issues. Your results may vary.
you obviously spent a lot of time putting that response together. but it was for not. as a pro tech, i won't be making any money if i'm sitting around waiting for carbon to 'soften up.' the whole point of the antiseize is to make the removal of the plugs easier. the main thing it boils down to is if i can do a tune up in 30 minute or 3 hours because a plug broke off. as for the manufacturers, i'm betting the reason they don't recommend it is because they have no idea who will be using their plugs or the conditions they will be running in, so they have to post the method that is safest for a majority of situations. it may not be correct but they are covering their butts. thats all i have to say.
ServiceWithIntegrity
Banned
I agree with everyone who says use it on all s.plugs regardless of what the vehicle manufacturer says. Just don't go overboard with the application. A little goes a long way.
garfunkle24
Well-known member
I say go with what the manufacturer recommends. It takes a long time for conventional "wisdom" to change I see, even when a poster goes to the trouble of presenting hard data right from the horse's (plug mafg's) mouth.
Anyone who is saying ALWAYS or NEVER use anti-seize, without considering the application, is wrong.
Anyone who is saying ALWAYS or NEVER use anti-seize, without considering the application, is wrong.
84bimmer
Well-known member
Last semester my Engine Performance instructor preached to us not to do it on any spark plugs. I wondered if he had ever had a spark plug break off in a head. Not just on a Ford. I've had some plugs break on me during removal. They are always the hard to reach ones, easy to cross thread while installing. Some people just like to ignore those ones all together and just never change them. Do I use anti-seize? DAMN STRAIGHT.
MrMark
Well-known member
You are a student and your instructor preached to you not to use it on spark plugs, but you know better? That makes a lot of sense.
Elroy wonders why that would be?
Maybe it would be wise to pay attention to what a professional mechanic recommends as these are wise words:
Would WHT like Elroy to explain again, why making the generic claim that never-seize raises the heat range is BS
X1 Mike
Well-known member
If you want to know if you should use anti-seize take the time to talk to one of the engineers like I did.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1358788&postcount=32
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1358788&postcount=32
mrholeshot
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There are good instructors and bad instuctors. Some go by what the plug maker says some have real experiance. Anyone who tells you not to use it never spent 3-6 hours getting the plug base out or pulling a head because the numbnuts that put the last set in put them in dry. Sometimes a student can teach the teacher.
mrholeshot
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Maybe you can call Champion and ask them why your plugs won't come out and see if they will send someone over to help you
garfunkle24
Well-known member
Yes I have and still don't use antisieze in a lot of applications, depending on manufacturer recommendation. Mr Holeshot, you make a lot of assumptions and are very quick to de-value other poster's opinions. You're hardly the first guy in the world screwed by a spark plug.
Perhaps if your removal and installation techniques were improved the use of anti-sieze might be less of an issue?
Also, how can you be so sure that a lack of anti-seize is the reason the plugs are hard to get out? Maybe by lubing them with anti-sieze you keep over-torquing the plugs and distort the threads? Maybe they have carbon buildup? Maybe some numbnuts cross-threaded them?
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volvo420coupe
Well-known member
I have been waiting for someone to point this out, without a real scientific test, everyone claiming "lack of anti-sieze" as the absolute reason a spark plug broke, are speculating at best.
Isn't it in our nature to place blame as far away as possible, so if you are old school and love silver **** all over you and your car, then it is really easy to say not using it caused everything to break, and its not your fault. (as you hold up your dirty anti-sieze covered hands to prove the point)
You know, for once you could actually post meaningful information if you have it to share instead of making people pry it out of you like you are some sort of all knowing oracle of automotive knowledge.
If you have info that shows that raising the heat range is BS, I'd love to see it, because everything seen from the manufacturers has stated that it can happen.
AZ_Catskinner
Well-known member
Some of you anti-anti-seize folks are making the assumption that you're supposed to slather the things with half of a can. Doing it right only requires a little light coating on the threads (a cheap soldering flux type brush works great for this).
The argument about it raising the heat range is also based on the assumption that someone just dipped the plug in the can prior to installation. The only real determiner of heat range is the length of the insulator, not how efficiently the metal body can sink with the head. With the exceptions of flatheads and hemis, that plug is usually located next to a nice, cool exhaust outlet, is it not?
The argument about it raising the heat range is also based on the assumption that someone just dipped the plug in the can prior to installation. The only real determiner of heat range is the length of the insulator, not how efficiently the metal body can sink with the head. With the exceptions of flatheads and hemis, that plug is usually located next to a nice, cool exhaust outlet, is it not?
mrholeshot
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How about 45+ years of hands on knowledge working as a line technician and shop owner. I've never pulled a pull with anti-seize that broke or ruined the threads. Any one that ever broke off in the head didn't have any anti-seize. Every once in a while (not very often) a plug gets cross threaded. Those are not hard to get out but damage threads. Plugs that are bottomed out and sealed won't be cross threaded. If anything a cross threaded plug comes out easier especially in a alloy head.
Sure I'm going to devalue other peoples opinions on this subject because I'm going to stand hard ground on this one. As a lifetime auto tech, shop owner and engine machinist and builder I have gained enough wisdom on this subject to qualify to make an informed and professional opinion on the use of anti-seize.
Plug makers can tell you whatever they want, That doesn't make is so.There are brake pad makers that tell you their pads don't squeal, Tire builders that tell you their brand rides better, wiper blade makers that tell you their wipers don't streak, rotor makes that tell you their rotors don't warp. Bottom line is that Plug makers don't have to deal with plugs that have been in for 5+ years 50-200K on the clock. Just a small dab of anti-seize is all it takes. All plug makers want is for people to say "My car went 100K miles on (brand of your choice) and ran like a charm. It doesn't matter to them that they broke off coming out, tore up the threads and they won't cover a dime of it. When I buy a new vehicle with alloy heads I'll pull the plugs and put antiseize on them. Especially Mod Fords like my truck and wifes Mustang. Not only is it a saftey advantage it keeps wear down on the plug hole.
garfunkle24
Well-known member
Making optimistic claims to sell your product is a very different thing than a manufacturer (or several of them...) giving bad installation instructions. That would only make their product(s) look worse.
You are welcome to feel so assured in your opinion but I will take hard data over anecdotal evidence anytime.
Also, why de-value anyone's opinion at all? If you make a good point and make it well, you don't need to.
strnjss
Well-known member
ok, enough with all the bickering. The cold hard facts are this:
Spark plug makers may say not to use anti-seize. In the real world and with real experience, using the proper amount of anti-seize will NOT harm anything.
Putting spark plugs in without anti-seize may come out fine in the future, but DO have a higher chance of getting seized.
Most good mechanics will put anti-seize on spark plugs. This is what one should do to avoid potential problems in the future.
A thin layer will have no negative effects and is beneficial. If you cake the stuff all over the plug, then yes, you may have problems, and maybe that's what plug makers are trying to avoid.
But as mrholeshot pointed out, I would rather do what so many mechanics with real world experience do every day with no problems, than to follow some company's instructions that may quite possibly be motivated by other factors than to stop plugs from seizing.
Spark plug makers may say not to use anti-seize. In the real world and with real experience, using the proper amount of anti-seize will NOT harm anything.
Putting spark plugs in without anti-seize may come out fine in the future, but DO have a higher chance of getting seized.
Most good mechanics will put anti-seize on spark plugs. This is what one should do to avoid potential problems in the future.
A thin layer will have no negative effects and is beneficial. If you cake the stuff all over the plug, then yes, you may have problems, and maybe that's what plug makers are trying to avoid.
But as mrholeshot pointed out, I would rather do what so many mechanics with real world experience do every day with no problems, than to follow some company's instructions that may quite possibly be motivated by other factors than to stop plugs from seizing.
mrholeshot
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Whenever a spark plug gets seized nobody including myself has ever blamed the plug. You can blame it on mileage, enviromental conditions, two differant metals and the reaction they have, heat cycles whatever but the plug itself (at least not from any of the 100's of techs I know) has ever blamed it on the plug. If a plug maker put's on the box "Use Anti-seize before installing" some numbnuts is going to either cover the plug with anti-seize,The wrong anti-seize, use locktight thread locker,RTV,headbolt sealer or JB weld and then plug makers will be on the hook for not being specific enough. The best way to cover their *** is to tell you to install them dry. At least dry you won't have any performance issues. It's just a matter of knowing what to use, how much to use and where to use it.
Everytime I pull a plug and it has antiseize especially on a vehicle that has a near impossible access to the plug I quietly thank the last person who was responsible enough to do things the right way.
MrMark
Well-known member
If that Harley engineer really told you what you posted I have to wonder.
Silver has a lower coefficient of resistivity than copper. In other words, it is a better conductor than copper. It has a lower resistance. So why would it be OK to lower the resistance if resistance is critical for ION sensing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity
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czgunner, most antiseized plugs would be easier to remove than dry ones, perhaps a little drag on the thread but that's it. I use antiseize on just about everything especially two different kinds of metal contacting each other like aluminum cylinder heads/header bolts, brakes, hubs, lug nuts, and various other parts and yes, plugs.
Your other question regarding how long people do stuff wrong - no one should qualify how good they are at something by the number of years they've done it. I know plenty that have been doing things wrong for 20+ years. The quality of their work should prove how good they are. Take it for what's it's worth.
Your other question regarding how long people do stuff wrong - no one should qualify how good they are at something by the number of years they've done it. I know plenty that have been doing things wrong for 20+ years. The quality of their work should prove how good they are. Take it for what's it's worth.
MrMark
Well-known member
That's pretty funny calling what you posted "cold hard facts." You obviously have no clue what a "fact" is. Most everything you posted is opinion (or purported facts without evidence) and opinion that many disagree with. It is also opinion that should be devalued because it is mostly not based on facts. The two mechanics that on this board that have shown themselves through their posts (Stick and Fedwrench) to be the most knowledgeable have both said the same thing:
Follow directions, and directions many times state not to use the stuff. If the service manual says to use it, use it. If not, don't use it. It has known drawbacks that have been pointed out many times here. Manufacturers know way more about their product than you do and are not in the business of telling you to do something that will damage your car; that is just nonsense coming from conspiracy theorists.
How anyone with a remotely open mind could read the posts and come to the conclusion that anti-seize is always a good idea is just not very smart, quite frankly.
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To add to MrMark's post, please note that I qualified my statement about not using it (on modern ignition systems using coated plugs). On my 1964 Galaxie with a 289, sure I'll use antisieize, but on a 2007 Crown Vic with a COP ignition and coated plugs I've been able to see the difference with a labscope. In that case it had come in for a tune up, and came back a thousand miles later with a P0316 and a P0300. It had antiseize on the plugs, a little more than I would have used on an uncoated plug, but certainly not excessive. A set of plugs installed dry, after cleaning up the holes fixed the problem.
Certainly modern ignition systems can be picky, so the safest bet is to go with factory recommendations. Even then that can vary by model, such as some of the taper seat 4.6L and 5.4L Fords saying to install with a light coat of antiseize on the taper seat, but none on the threads.
Certainly modern ignition systems can be picky, so the safest bet is to go with factory recommendations. Even then that can vary by model, such as some of the taper seat 4.6L and 5.4L Fords saying to install with a light coat of antiseize on the taper seat, but none on the threads.
strnjss
Well-known member
Oh personal attacks on my intelligence? That's always a good sign of someone whose argument can't stand on it's own. Especially where what I 'know' is directly from actual ASE certified mechanics. I didn't make this up, I have learned this
I have stated no opinion, just the fact that every mechanic I have used has used anti-seize on every plug. Every mechanic I have ever talked to before taking on this task myself has told me to use anti-seize when doing so.
These people work on all kinds of cars, every work day of their lives, and I think they would tend to know a little more than you.
Not to mention the countless avocations of using anti-seize in just about every automotive forum out there:
http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/r22810455-Antiseize-on-plugs-in-aluminum-heads-Yes-or-No
http://www.hardcoresledder.com/forums/352-general-snowmobile-forum/205774-using-anti-seize-plug-threads.html
http://forums.turbobricks.com/archive/index.php/t-150955.html
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/general-automotive-discussion/64523-need-everyones-input-using-anti-seize-spark-plugs-pro-con.html
I could keep listing but I won't
Every vehicle I have ever done using anti-seize has NEVER had an issue.
I have also stated the FACT that even though plug makers may write it, I would rather take the advice of real world experienced mechanics than a company.
I've had to replace entire throttle bodies due to 'manufacturer's instructions' of dry torquing TPS screws. The screws seized into the aluminum so badly I had to get a new throttle body and sensor from the junkyard when one day the TPS failed. I made sure this time to use anti-seize on all the fasteners, and torqued them. So don't tell me manufacturers no more than me (or more specifically in this case many mechanics).
Take it or leave it for what it is, but I would love to see a car that had problems because of a little anti-seize on the spark plug threads (not slathered up with anti-seize, just a proper small amount). You can read about the consequences for not using it all over the place.
I stated the FACTS from real world conversations and experience, and also stated where my facts come from, and the fact that I would accept those over a company's packaging.
If you have evidence to the contrary, then post it, there's no need for personal attacks just because you feel safe behind your computer desk talking to faceless people.
MrMark
Well-known member
Every mechanic you have used, lol. How many is that? I could walk into the local Chevy dealership and line up 10 mechanics that say to never use it because it screws up the heat range of the plug and can cause electrical problems. I could walk into the Mercedes dealership and no one would tell me to use anti-seize because Mercedes doesn't recommend it.
You and I obviously value different sources of information. I prefer manufacturer instructions and you think you know more than the manufacturer. I'm not that vain. You prefer the word of mechanics you have talked to and you think they know more than the maker of the car and plugs. So be it but don't start talking about how these mechanics you have talked to are some singers of spark plug gospel, because they are not.
You and I obviously value different sources of information. I prefer manufacturer instructions and you think you know more than the manufacturer. I'm not that vain. You prefer the word of mechanics you have talked to and you think they know more than the maker of the car and plugs. So be it but don't start talking about how these mechanics you have talked to are some singers of spark plug gospel, because they are not.
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mrholeshot
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Lets get into the Dexcool debate next.
Stick
Never had a problem with a start-up misfire on any 4.6 due to antiseize. I'll take that one with a grain of salt. I've seen it caused by lack of using dielectric grease on the COP and allowing moisture in. Removing the COP and putting it back on could have cleared that problem up (for a while). My shop did the work for several of our local mustang clubs and 90% of those cars have Modular Engines. They are quite sensitive. We have had them set codes after installing underdrive pulleys. Never over anti-seize and we used it in every one that got plugs.
I won't say it it didn't happen, just very doubtful that was the actual cause. But I've been wrong before.
Stick
Never had a problem with a start-up misfire on any 4.6 due to antiseize. I'll take that one with a grain of salt. I've seen it caused by lack of using dielectric grease on the COP and allowing moisture in. Removing the COP and putting it back on could have cleared that problem up (for a while). My shop did the work for several of our local mustang clubs and 90% of those cars have Modular Engines. They are quite sensitive. We have had them set codes after installing underdrive pulleys. Never over anti-seize and we used it in every one that got plugs.
I won't say it it didn't happen, just very doubtful that was the actual cause. But I've been wrong before.
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First thing I checked after scoping the coils and finding high firing voltages was to pull the boots and check for dielectric, and there was a nice light coat on the inside of all the boots. Car had the new plugs installed at most two weeks before it came back and apparently ran fine when it left. Secondary ignition looked perfect after cleaning the antiseize out of the holes and installing new plugs, so I doubt it was coils or boots. Like I said, the previous tech used a bit more antiseize than I would have if they had been uncoated plugs, though nowhere near excessive. Probably put plug resistance just out of spec enough to create problems.
I do have to say though, maybe I would be singing a different tune if I lived in the rust belt, instead of what is effectively a desert. I've never had a problem installing or removing plugs, but then again we don't deal with rust the same way the midwest or coastal areas do.
garfunkle24
Well-known member
What am I, chopped liver? (JK)
There you go with your damn facts and evidence again.
Give us some hearsay and "common knowledge", it seems to be much preferred around here...AZ_Catskinner
Well-known member
I'm just one of those neanderthal heavy diesel guys, so my knowledge of modern electronic ignitions is somewhat limited, but I still don't see how anti-seize can possibly affect the heat range of the plug. Altering the resistance between the head and the plug, sure, but not heat range. To be honest, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around how a couple of ohms can make a difference in the grounding of the plug too, but what do I know?
My 2 cents offered were obtained by high school and community college instructors during the times that I drove a '47 CJ2A and a '63 C10, respectively.
My 2 cents offered were obtained by high school and community college instructors during the times that I drove a '47 CJ2A and a '63 C10, respectively.
garfunkle24
Well-known member
The belief is that anti-seize can prevent the plug and head threads properly seating together and thus compromise heat transfer.
The slight resistance change only really effects Ion sensing plugs AFAIK.
Having said that, I'm just a neanderthal heavy diesel guy too.
Resistance goes up, heat goes up, heat increases resistance, repeat and so on. Tolerances are so tight now that some stuff that used to be pretty minor can have effects on today's systems. In my case the misfire was bad enough to throw a code on startup, but under normal operation it appeared to work fine.
strnjss
Well-known member
Ok, well there was first the mechanic who helped me removed my semi-seized from the factory spark plug. (which by itself shows that these things can seize up without proper anti-seize).
Then there's the retired mechanic who now works at an autoparts store who told me to use the stuff.
Then there's the bodyshop/mechanic place I used to take my cars to who I watched install my plugs.
Plus there's my new mechanic who said he always uses the stuff on anything going into aluminum.
I have no doubt that mercedes and even BMW would manufacture cars that have electrical systems that could get screwed by heavy amounts of anti-seize. That doesn't mean those plugs aren't going to seize by not using any. I don't have any mercedes experience, but could start a whole other thread on the ridiculous things BMW does with their cars; but even with those, I highly doubt an extremely thin layer of anti-seize would cause issues on any car.
but anyway, I'm done with this thread.
AZ_Catskinner
Well-known member
Weird stuff - I'll stick with simple things like chasing down goofy VIMS faults, and diff pressure faults.