Robby321
Well-known member
4800 watt 220 shop heater to supplement the wood stove fast warm up. Has 6-30 plug, and shop is 6-50 (50 amp) the welders. OK simple cut the plug off and wire a 6-50? I'm a wizard mechanical, but not electricity! Thanks..
Any caution involved changing a 6-30 to 6-50 plug?
- Thread starter Robby321
- Start date
Most will say you shouldn't do it and they're right. But if it were mine I would probably just change the plug and not worry about it. People do it all the time with smaller welders, power washers/ect.
But you didn't hear it from me, do it at your own risk
But you didn't hear it from me, do it at your own risk
sberry
Banned
This is not totally accurate. The plug is so you don't plug in to large a circuit. The clock is rated to plug to 20, factory cord is often designed to be plugged in to a limited circuit. You can't chop plug off clock and plug in to 30 and the heater may be the same. The internals of the heater may not be rated for short circuit above 30, if it comes factory cord chances are it's limited and this isn't a good idea without thorough understanding of complete circuit design.
It's kind of a simple statement highly misunderstood that all the breaker does is protect the wire from thermal and mostly true on general circuits with multiple recepts.
sberry
Banned
In fact on most dedicated circuits the breaker doesn't protect the wire.
sberry
Banned
Most welders with a 50a plug are legal with a 50a breaker on a 12 wire with the exception of 250 feeders. They come with 12 cords.
An electric range is worth looking at. The unit is really a total of sub assemblies. The wire is protected by the fact that the total won't overload it and the internals designed so each piece of wire will safely carry it's load and able to short circuit a 50a breaker. You need breaker large enough so it doesn't trip.
If the number 6 wire had 20a internal breakers it could be connected to 200a,,, the short rating of 6.
An electric range is worth looking at. The unit is really a total of sub assemblies. The wire is protected by the fact that the total won't overload it and the internals designed so each piece of wire will safely carry it's load and able to short circuit a 50a breaker. You need breaker large enough so it doesn't trip.
If the number 6 wire had 20a internal breakers it could be connected to 200a,,, the short rating of 6.
sberry
Banned
A clock had a cord to short 20 and fuse internal to protect it. Christmas tree lights, modern ones same way. Not all stuff has additional protection, similar to the range only the wire size protects it from thermal, it relies on the supply circuit breaker for faults.
sberry
Banned
I have never seen a set of instructions say to cut the plug off and change it to higher amperage if you feel like it. I don't recall a code provision that allows it either.
It isn't about you being there or not, its the fact it wont trip the breaker properly if something goes wrong. The internal wiring may not be short circuit protected, this is different than overheating. The breaker doesn't do much for that. It doesn't just suddenly start drawing more than it needs unless it develops a short.
It isn't about you being there or not, its the fact it wont trip the breaker properly if something goes wrong. The internal wiring may not be short circuit protected, this is different than overheating. The breaker doesn't do much for that. It doesn't just suddenly start drawing more than it needs unless it develops a short.
canbug
Well-known member
For a couple of bucks you can build yourself a cheater cord. 50A male end, #8 wire to a 30A female cord end.
Tim
Tim
sberry
Banned
Run the right wire and install the correct breaker, one that matches the end the thing came with and the one it recommends in the instruction manual. Depending on the welder a guy could put a 30 recept, change breaker and make a cheater to a 50
There seems to be a problem with the concept here that one isn't sposed to put a larger breaker on the circuit than it calls for,,,, is it really that hard to grasp?
There seems to be a problem with the concept here that one isn't sposed to put a larger breaker on the circuit than it calls for,,,, is it really that hard to grasp?
sberry
Banned
I dont see 1 master here endorsing this, Wylie, Alfred, Norcal, Speedy, etc.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Thats because if it came from the factory with a properly sized cord and plug, then changing it violates not only the warranty but also the UL Listing.
There is reasons that manufacturers have to pay lots of money for UL testing and put certain size plugs and cords on the equipment they make. If it were able to be put on a higher amperage circuit then they would have built it accordingly.
sberry
Banned
The charger is designed for it.
OK, I'm the OP. Heres the story of "why" i wanna try this. I'm PNW, not real cold, but wet winter. Like my dry heat the wood stove as all my tooling (rust) the vintage (now, new me) motorcycle collection I rode (quit riding after 60 years, 67 now), and the getting tired (OK OLD)! the wood heat hassle. Occasional fine. But here is cheap Hydro heat the dams (whole house elec) The reason I want to try this 4800 is see if it will do the job. It was only $100. I've got also a forced air (no Nat gas me) wall propane heater that I can hook up a outside tank but would cost $1000 Pro install to a outside tank bought by me. I've ran it off a 20 pound tank and roast ya out fast as meant for a house, as the small tank?..fast M/T.
So this will be only a test. Not permanent. If does the job will be one pro installed, ceiling mount made to run off my 220 line out here with a wireless remote to control and "more power".
And on the comment "could short out" Please explain more that as like to know more. But ya have to understand I'm not a total idiot as my dad was a TV/Radio repairman (born 1901, and a hell of a wrench/gearhead) and he showed me young age "stick the screwdriver here as won't hurt ya. Yep, just knock ya on yer *** and a useless arm! I also still have his tester, 110/220 meter that I will use it. If a "short"? Well metal case and the LAST thing I would do is touch the case, but will test often with my dads meter, one Neg stinger one a 110 outlet ground, other to metal case. Zero plans to touch it away without plug out, and a plastic heat temp knob.
Nice info though ya wizards. Thanks for spreading the knowledge for others ..even this dumass..(never stop learning!)
So this will be only a test. Not permanent. If does the job will be one pro installed, ceiling mount made to run off my 220 line out here with a wireless remote to control and "more power".
And on the comment "could short out" Please explain more that as like to know more. But ya have to understand I'm not a total idiot as my dad was a TV/Radio repairman (born 1901, and a hell of a wrench/gearhead) and he showed me young age "stick the screwdriver here as won't hurt ya. Yep, just knock ya on yer *** and a useless arm! I also still have his tester, 110/220 meter that I will use it. If a "short"? Well metal case and the LAST thing I would do is touch the case, but will test often with my dads meter, one Neg stinger one a 110 outlet ground, other to metal case. Zero plans to touch it away without plug out, and a plastic heat temp knob.
Nice info though ya wizards. Thanks for spreading the knowledge for others ..even this dumass..(never stop learning!)
sberry
Banned
It and any metal should be grounded, makes it safe to touch. Often smaller than legal wire will trip a breaker but it doesn't have the speed. I had a single strand from a 16 cord, not the wire but a hair find strand stick out of a plug I had temp wired on and struck the box cover,,, big ole flash, big arc strike, tripped the 20 it was on and knocked the 60 feeding the sub over too.
I had a helper nick a wire was shorted to the case of a panel, full size conductors, just a click to trip it was so fast.
I had a helper nick a wire was shorted to the case of a panel, full size conductors, just a click to trip it was so fast.
sberry
Banned
Engineering can splain further and better than I can. My understanding is only basic, only thing I know is how big the wire, size of breaker and where to hook it.
Guys here can splain the phone charger too but it is especially designed to be hooked to 20A. We get questions, can I took my gas range 120v to the old 240 with 50A. The new stove isn't going to overheat the supply wire but it needs a 20A breaker.
Guys here can splain the phone charger too but it is especially designed to be hooked to 20A. We get questions, can I took my gas range 120v to the old 240 with 50A. The new stove isn't going to overheat the supply wire but it needs a 20A breaker.
jblnut
ALLIANCE MEMBER
After reading through this thread I realized my plug was also over-rated so I removed the 50a crows foot plug from the wire going to my heater and wired it direct instead. I would agree that it seems like a much better solution as the plug is no longer over rated for the electrical device it is supplying power to.
sberry
Banned
There isn't really anything wrong with the plug being over rated its the breaker that's the problem. Lots of the little welders work on 30A, if they changed it to a 30 along with the plug it would be a different matter but they aint sposed to be plugged to a 50A circuit.
jblnut
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Wire a short whip with your welder plug on one end and the heater plug on the other end with this box with a 30a breaker inside instead of the 60a rated switch. Mount it on the wall next to your welder plug. Over-current protection is taken care of and you are not cutting plugs off anything. I used the same box with a 30a breaker wired off a 50a breaker in my main panel. Works fine.
I'm sure it's not gonna get the sparky approval on here but it works and it's protected as close to the heater as possible.
I'm sure it's not gonna get the sparky approval on here but it works and it's protected as close to the heater as possible.
sberry
Banned
This is an improvement.
After reading through this thread I realized my plug was also over-rated so I removed the 50a crows foot plug from the wire going to my heater and wired it direct instead. I would agree that it seems like a much better solution as the plug is no longer over rated for the electrical device it is supplying power to.
You should consider upgrading that dangerous fuse box.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
My 100 watt plug in work lamp is un-fused, and has tiny 20 gauge wires, which could easily melt off on a 20 amp circuit if a bigger bulb were put in it, or something shorted out. Most vacuum cleaners come with paper-thin 17 or 18 gauge cords, and draw enough current to get the whole cord hot if you vacuum for an extended period of time. The last vacuum I took apart was also un-fused, and if a short-circuit or over-current situation occurred inside the vacuum, it would certainly light the whole cord up as well.
Then you also have things like the 15/20 amp outlets. Any 15 amp device you plug into one of those combination outlets will certainly not have wiring or internals rated for 20 amps (otherwise it would have came with a 20 amp plug).
IMO, install a 30 amp breaker on the heater somewhere and call it good.
Then you also have things like the 15/20 amp outlets. Any 15 amp device you plug into one of those combination outlets will certainly not have wiring or internals rated for 20 amps (otherwise it would have came with a 20 amp plug).
IMO, install a 30 amp breaker on the heater somewhere and call it good.
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TractorJeff
Well-known member
LOL!
I like the 3 wires plugged into the welder outlet and the only comment was "Get rid of that dangerous fuse box!"
Please explain why the fuse box is more dangerous than a circuit breaker box.
All parts being in good condition on both items of course!
I like the 3 wires plugged into the welder outlet and the only comment was "Get rid of that dangerous fuse box!"
Please explain why the fuse box is more dangerous than a circuit breaker box.
All parts being in good condition on both items of course!
jblnut
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I was joking with another member one here about doing that when I hooked up my heater so I had to do it and send him the photo. He laid into me about it being unsafe and some BS so I did it right
Last summer I had my master sparky electrical installer dude hook the shop and house up to the barn service and the entire property passed with flying colors. Please explain to me as I have no idea why a fuse box is more dangerous than it's alternative. I'm part of the "If it's not broke, don't fix it" crowd. The shop panel is run outside to an 8 space SquareD and is run off a 30a breaker I believe. I replaced the 50a fuses with 30's in the welder spot and the main spot has a 100a so the breaker will trip first if something shorts out. <- that was recommended by the electrical inspector, not sure if it'll happen that way but whatever.
I like how no one noticed the old light switches that give a good spark show when I toggle them. There are lots of things on the "To Do List" but for now, this stuff works fine and I see no reason to update any of it.
sberry
Banned
Where did you learn this?
OK, that in bold. In other words you mean a male 6-50 plug, short whip (I have extra 220 cable from orig instillation) to this box (link coming) and then whip to a 6-30 outlet?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052MB01O/?tag=atomicindus08-20
jblnut
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Yes. Male welder plug, 220v (10ga min I'd think) wire to the supply side of the A/C disconnect, the same 220v wire from the discharge side of the A/C disconnect to a surface mount receptacle for your heater. Unplug the welder plug when you don't want the heater powered up or use something like the box listed below and just flip the breaker off and leave the it all plugged in. No need to unplug the welder plugin, just flip the breaker.
I used this box so I could put a breaker in it so when/if something does happen I don't have to buy fuses. There is nothing wrong with the box you posted and it will serve the same purpose.
The box I used was a Square D QO200TRCPP with a Square D QO230 breaker inside. Total for both at the local Menards was less than $25.
I used this box so I could put a breaker in it so when/if something does happen I don't have to buy fuses. There is nothing wrong with the box you posted and it will serve the same purpose.
The box I used was a Square D QO200TRCPP with a Square D QO230 breaker inside. Total for both at the local Menards was less than $25.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
Take apart some of your appliances. The majority of small appliances with thin cords are generally unfused. Motorized devices will tend to have a thermal fuse on the motor, but that's about it.
Very few devices I've seen have a fused plug that would protect the cord. The majority of household appliances will happily melt the cord off if a short/partial short developed somewhere inside the device.
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sberry
Banned
There is a reason for the enginers and licences, why would they bother if it was so simple a caveman could do it? Why bother with UL? Same for Nema. Figure they hire all those guys off the street? There are several ways to protect an appliance and I only discuss a couple simple ones as we seem to have a problem with those let alone more complex ideas, many over my head. Do we figure they leave all these millions of appliances unprotected? It could even be as simple as a wire that opens. Stuff with 15 ends are rated for 20 general circuits. Outlets 15, breaker 20, we figure these people are stupid and get their paper from the crackerjack box? We have been over the reason for 20 plugs and outlets here before.
sberry
Banned
Some motors are impedance protected. Some appliances have transformers with thermal fuse or simply blow open, wall warts have somewhat isolated transformer with thermal fuse.
Others may be able to splain better than I can, my understanding is rather rudimentary.
Others may be able to splain better than I can, my understanding is rather rudimentary.
It was Sarcasm.
I'm the OP. Great knowledge all, but have some Q's about a separate breaker box. Life getting in the way too today, so more tomorrow. With pix. "Ya learn something every day"! I'm one who will (learn someday) that spend $3 to save a buck? Do it right first!
More later.........
More later.........
jblnut
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I have a 18kw PTO generator that I feed through that outlet to power the property when the power goes out. That makes it a 50a welder/heater outlet and an 80a generator inlet if my math is correct ... although the generator has a 70a breaker on it. Whatever, close enough.
Look above, that's how you do sarcasm
Robby321 I hope you don't mind if we have a little fun in your thread
I have a 18kw PTO generator that I feed through that outlet to power the property when the power goes out. That makes it a 50a welder/heater outlet and an 80a generator inlet if my math is correct ... although the generator has a 70a breaker on it. Whatever, close enough.
Look above, that's how you do sarcasm
Robby321 I hope you don't mind if we have a little fun in your thread
HA Go for it! Ya "never stop learning"
OK, again in this. If I bought this cord and plug..
http://www.americord.com/10ft-heavy-duty-power-cord-8-3-soow-1678.html
and cut in 1/2 (don't need a lotta length) and plug to disconnect, rest out to a 6-30 female outlet.
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