Any ICON fans?

[Bubba Fett]

Although Icon tools are nice, if you do some searching, you can often find identical tools for much cheaper. And I do mean identical. But warrantying them could be an issue, so you do have to consider that.

But I do like the fact that they are offering better tools, because for a long time they sold absolute junk. I see a lot more tools that are made in Taiwan. In fact I don't even pay attention to the brands, just check the COO. I've seen far worse tools at Autoparts stores and hardware stores, including tools from well known brands that should know better.

They also carry USA-made buckets, and they carry Evapo-Rust, PlastiDip, CRC, and other good products. I also like those little black canvas tool bags.

 

[wrenchr]

The few icon tools I have I really do like. The ratchets I have a few of but never used them.

 

[Ton ton]

This might come as a shock, but harbor freight is not a tool company.

They are a retailer, that has certain brand names put on somewhat generic products, that are sold elsewhere around the world, under different brand names. Menards sell some of the exact same products under different brand name.

It’s hard to imagine an asian tool company making nothing but Icon wrenches for HF,( at least a successful one.)

As far as Making them look like snap on - what are they suppose to make them look like?

They are supposed to look like King **** screwdrivers and wrenches. Sorry I can't help myself anymore.

 

[dukefx]

Icon be like:
Step 1: Buy some tools from alibaba or any other Chinese wholesale site
Step 2: Add the "ICON" label to the tools
Step 3: Lie, lie, lie, and lie even more about them being comparable to Snap On and ****
Step 4: Resell them with a 300% profit margin
Step 5: Profit!

 

[ecotec]

I don’t have any Icon tools. However, I have seen when looking at them they are not inexpensive compared to others like Tekton, etc. For instance I have been looking at the metric Mountain long reversing ratchet wrench set for a while. Icon version of this is set is approximately $60 more. I am looking at the Icon set due to the fact the mountain set seems to be hard to find.

I have both metric versions of those extra long Icon Kabo sets, and they are terrific.

 

[ecotec]

Icon/HF won't innovate. But they are going to force Knipex/Snap On to. I like the fact that the role HF is playing in the whole system. It squeeze the fat profit away from fat cats' business and move the whole industry forward. Also relative to Knipex at least, HF has much much better warranty and service. If Icon can be as good as, or even close to Knipex, why would one miss Knipex?

Because Knipex is made in Germany.

 

[UglyViking]

If HF sold a lot of single sockets and wrenches in the store, that would make inventory mgt a lot harder.
Imagine trying to stock singles of Pittsburg, Quinn, and Icon sockets.

Also, to maintain a decent margin, they'd have to raise costs on those individual sockets to the point where cheapskate customers would complain and say "I can't believe I have to pay $4 for a 19mm socket when I could buy the whole set for $20!"

Might as well stick to selling complete sets and make a decent margin without complaints. Autozone has one brand (maybe 2) of hand tools but they don't carry half the stuff that HF has. It's easier for Autozone to sell singles, but even then, my local Autozone didn't have many 6pt single sockets when I needed one.

I'm not quite sure why HF would need to carry singles in every brand of tools they carry. They could simply say "Icon is our premium line which competes with the tool trucks, and as such is the only one that sells singles".

Additionally, why is it that HD, Lowes, and every auto parts store carries singles and makes cash but HF is somehow incapable? Honestly, they don't need to make the singles crazy expensive, just like 25% more than the bulk set and you're good. That causes the people who want to buy the set to buy the actual set, and people who are replacing a few sockets/wrenches to just buy the singles. It would also reduce losses from open packs having to be clearanced out.

I'm weird. Lets pick the knipex pliers wrench. They're like $55 bucks? Icon version is $30? Why would I buy the Icon version, when a known known product exists? I know the Knipex version is touted as great. So why would I gamble $30 that Icon is similar or at least passable, when for $55 it's a sure thing? That's my problem with knock offs, all it does is further justify the original. The pliers wrench is SO good, a business model exists to make a knock off.

A single pair of knipex may seem obvious. "Why would I buy these knockoffs when I get get the original for $25 more!", but if you reframe the question it becomes more clear. "Why would I pay 2x for the original when I can get the knockoff for half that!". Also the idea that even if you're only saving half, which is a lot in my book, it really stacks up when you're trying to build your own arsenal of tools. A bunch of pliers, picks, wrenches, etc. all end up costing a lot together and it may mean spending 5k on tools overall vs 10k, which is serious.

As an aside, I really wish we had competing products made in the USA, but today most of the stuff that is made in the USA isn't always quality, and more often than not I feel like people are trading on "Made in the USA" as a sticker over any real meaning or pride in the quality of the item. I'll be interested to see what the Craftsman and Milwaukee hand tools look and feel like once they finally release, but even still those manufacturing plants aren't hiring as many workers as things become more and more automated.

For what it's worth, I really dig the Icon tools. I like the product, at least as much as I've used them, and they seem to hold up. I'm sure they don't last as long as a Snappy, but they are also nowhere near the price and their warranty should cover anything up to loss. HF seems to be doing a much better job in keeping their "brands" around, so we will see how things go.

 

[Lt CHEG]

One thing that I see as promising is that Icon showed off a big pry bar that was proudly adorned as made in USA at SEMA. They print that Icon tools are designed in the USA. I think this shows some acknowledgment that US production is important to some of their customers. I know on a couple surveys that I’ve taken for Harbor Freight that I’ve indicated I wanted more made in USA tools, and that I would only consider buying products of theirs that are made in Taiwan and refuse to buy anything that’s made in China. Maybe they are making some efforts to have some US made products in their Icon line? That big ole pry bar at SEMA was definitely made in the USA - here’s hoping it’s not a one off.

 

[Ton ton]

I'm looking forward to seeing these USA made prybars!

 

[saltwater4life]

i picked up the case of snap ring pliers and they are great. i use proto snap ring pliers everyday at work and these seem to be just as good.

 

[Bubba Fett]

I'm looking forward to seeing these USA made prybars!

I figure they will be made by Wilde, since they also make the USA-made Hyper-tough prybars from Walmart.

 

[zendriver]

Harbor Freight knows the value of marketing as well as anybody, so I suspect (that in addition to making money) they see value in a line of professional tools, that remove/reduce the stigma, for those tempted to make a living with the Pittsburgh Pro line, which, for the most part, will get them by just fine. (could use some 6 points)

We live in a world where image is important.

They might still have to go into debt to buy them, but still way cheaper than the tool truck route. I't thinking there will come a time when Icon users will look down on those who swear by P-Pro, as "uninformed"

It's inevitable.

 

[visionguru]

Are those Icon wobble extensions .... wobble only?

Seth

Yes, that is wobble only extension set. They have other extension sets too, such as 1/2", 3/8",1/4".

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

Meh, they're like any other brand of tools; if they fit your needs at your price point then great. I've yet to buy any as I don't see any of their products as a value when pretty much all of them can be found branded under different names cheaper.

 

[Bubba Fett]

Harbor Freight knows the value of marketing as well as anybody, so I suspect (that in addition to making money) they see value in a line of professional tools, that remove/reduce the stigma, for those tempted to make a living with the Pittsburgh Pro line, which, for the most part, will get them by just fine. (could use some 6 points)

We live in a world where image is important.

They might still have to go into debt to buy them, but still way cheaper than the tool truck route. I't thinking there will come a time when Icon users will look down on those who swear by P-Pro, as "uninformed"

It's inevitable.

They already do.

 

[Tomstir]

2nd Gear. Harbor Freight doesn't have to innovate, their suppliers in Taiwan innovate all the time. KABO is the most innovative company I've ever encountered. Visit their booth at SEMA and every year they've got new and interesting ****.

Is there a video or review of the KABO booth?

I don’t have any Icon tools. However, I have seen when looking at them they are not inexpensive compared to others like Tekton, etc. For instance I have been looking at the metric Mountain long reversing ratchet wrench set for a while. Icon version of this is set is approximately $60 more. I am looking at the Icon set due to the fact the mountain set seems to be hard to find.

I'm in the same place.

 

[turnthewrench 2.0]

For the money you pay, Icon is an excellent deal. The fact that our home-brew tools are over-priced is not a Taiwanese problem, but ours to solve. In the meantime, I happily buy TW-Made HF tools.

 

[Billgluckman]

I work in mechanical and collision repair. I use Icon daily, been great.

I also bought a couple Williams ratchet wrenches 6 months ago that have both failed. I find it funny the brands that are praised/shamed on here. I also own a Tekton ratchet wrench. I can’t say Tekton quality is higher than what the icon line has.

 

[Fedwrench]

Is there a video or review of the KABO booth?

Not that I'm aware of. The Kabo booth is at the AAPEX show. They have large glass display cases arranged in a U, with desks in the center, and a large round structure in back of the cases with samples of the various tools they make from ratcheting wrenches to Torque wrenches. The KABO booth is very business like with meetings constantly going on throughout the day. Some of their samples will feature brand names such as Cornwell, Matco, and the old SK G Pro series. I've never seen a KABO branded tool. They make tools for a lot of different brands.

KABO

www.kabotools.com.tw

 

[Jtels85]

We have a young. heavy equipment tech at work with a Kobalt box full of Icon mechanics tools. I asked him if he liked them and he said he hasn’t had any problems.

 

[dchawk81]

Building off Bubba Fett and dnschmidt, I think part of the reason that HF is pricing their ICON tools at a higher price is that the HF store has some advantages over HD, Lowes, and online shopping.
Let's say you want a tool cart or toolbox, a nice set of chrome sockets, a beater set of impact sockets, some picks, and floor jack. Is there any other big box store that sells all of the those products and has them out on the floor for you to inspect before buying? Not in my part of the country.

Let's say that you're shopping at HF and a fairy godmother, or your smartphone, tells you that if you are willing to drive to Napa, you can buy the same jack $5 cheaper, and if you are willing to wait a few days, you can buy the same chrome sockets from Capri $5 cheaper and if you are also willing to drive to AutoZone, you can buy the cheap impact sockets $5 cheaper. Do you actually make all those extra trips (and burn fuel doing it) or pay the $15 convenience fee of shopping at HF and get to work on whatever you had planned?

Time is money. Also, it's nice being able to hold something in your hand before you decide to buy it or not. HF in general offers these values that other, less specialized stores do not. So they can charge more for some of their nicer items like the ICON brand, compared to Capri or Tekton.

I usually buy things online to save as much money as possible and stage it for when I have time to do the work.

Local is for when I screw up and have the wrong part or need a part unexpectedly. Seldom have I needed to run local for unexpected tools.

 

[dchawk81]

Harbor Freight knows the value of marketing as well as anybody, so I suspect (that in addition to making money) they see value in a line of professional tools, that remove/reduce the stigma, for those tempted to make a living with the Pittsburgh Pro line, which, for the most part, will get them by just fine. (could use some 6 points)

We live in a world where image is important.

They might still have to go into debt to buy them, but still way cheaper than the tool truck route. I't thinking there will come a time when Icon users will look down on those who swear by P-Pro, as "uninformed"

It's inevitable.

I can't wait for the Harbor Freight tool trucks.

Will they be shaped like boats? Kinda like how Carvana put skirting with their branding on regular Isuzu NPR rollbacks to make them look special?

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

We have a young. heavy equipment tech at work with a Kobalt box full of Icon mechanics tools. I asked him if he liked them and he said he hasn’t had any problems.

All the Mazak techs that come into the shop for repairs work with Husky, Pitts and Icon stuff. Last two new hires we had also had boxes filled with a mix of Icon and Pitts HF stuff. I think guys are over the stigma associated with HF tools and see the value in it for them. Also, I know the growing trend, in my trade at least, is for shops to provide company tools out of a tool crib so they can comply with certs and keep 5S in-line. Doesn’t make sense to buy top dollar tools if your next job tells you to leave them home. Only guys at our shop who give HF **** are the old timers with their Craftsman/Starrett stuff. I’m the weirdo with the Kennedy full of tools spanning the UN. I like spice in my life and in my toolbox.

 

[LWB]

All the Mazak techs that come into the shop for repairs work with Husky, Pitts and Icon stuff. Last two new hires we had also had boxes filled with a mix of Icon and Pitts HF stuff. I think guys are over the stigma associated with HF tools and see the value in it for them. Also, I know the growing trend, in my trade at least, is for shops to provide company tools out of a tool crib so they can comply with certs and keep 5S in-line. Doesn’t make sense to buy top dollar tools if your next job tells you to leave them home. Only guys at our shop who give HF **** are the old timers with their Craftsman/Starrett stuff. I’m the weirdo with the Kennedy full of tools spanning the UN. I like spice in my life and in my toolbox.

Toolbox tour!

 

[Garcky]

Sure there are ICON fans. They're not a big percentage of GL posters, though. Harbor Freight isn't really trying to compete for the business of seasoned pro line mechanics, though. Those guys buy whatever they buy. What HF is about is selling loads of tools to DIYers and bargain-conscious pros who need tools but can't afford the tool truck and don't want to go into debt. They're trying to earn a living, not collect tools.

Who makes the best tools? Well, it depends on what tools you need, really. In reality, the best tools are the ones you can afford to own and the ones you need to do whatever you need to do. Snap-On, MAC, Matco, and the others make or sell great tools. No question. But their tools are not what everyone needs. There are tools at all price points. Sometimes a guy needs some tool, but can't afford the top brand.

Even ICON is out of a lot of people's price range, so HF has other lines you can buy. So does Lowe's and Home Depot. You go in, you look at the tools, and you buy what you need (or think you need) at whatever price point you can afford. For the most part, they all get the job done, one way or another. Cheap tools work, but just not for as long or as well when the job is difficult.

And, then, there are some guys who want to own every possible tool and store them all in some really nice tool boxes. There are some guys who just want to own the tools, you know, just in case they need them some day. They don't really use the tools much. They arrange them in their boxes, make sure they're shiny, and sometimes they even have YouTube channels to show you their tools. Everyone sells tools to those guys. All of the tool companies and retailers who sell tools love those guys.

Other guys just need to get things done. They buy the tools they need, at whatever price they can afford.

It's all good.

 

[zendriver]

I can't wait for the Harbor Freight tool trucks.

Will they be shaped like boats? Kinda like how Carvana put skirting with their branding on regular Isuzu NPR rollbacks to make them look special?

Well, the whole point of a tool truck is to sell more tools.

Doesn't look like a problem, with the number of people flying in and out of my local HF store, (one of 1300 stores). not surprising if HF has already realize a tool truck is something that kinda made sense last century, but not this one.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Sure there are ICON fans. They're not a big percentage of GL posters, though. Harbor Freight isn't really trying to compete for the business of seasoned pro line mechanics, though. Those guys buy whatever they buy. What HF is about is selling loads of tools to DIYers and bargain-conscious pros who need tools but can't afford the tool truck and don't want to go into debt. They're trying to earn a living, not collect tools.

Who makes the best tools? Well, it depends on what tools you need, really. In reality, the best tools are the ones you can afford to own and the ones you need to do whatever you need to do. Snap-On, MAC, Matco, and the others make or sell great tools. No question. But their tools are not what everyone needs. There are tools at all price points. Sometimes a guy needs some tool, but can't afford the top brand.

Even ICON is out of a lot of people's price range, so HF has other lines you can buy. So does Lowe's and Home Depot. You go in, you look at the tools, and you buy what you need (or think you need) at whatever price point you can afford. For the most part, they all get the job done, one way or another. Cheap tools work, but just not for as long or as well when the job is difficult.

And, then, there are some guys who want to own every possible tool and store them all in some really nice tool boxes. There are some guys who just want to own the tools, you know, just in case they need them some day. They don't really use the tools much. They arrange them in their boxes, make sure they're shiny, and sometimes they even have YouTube channels to show you their tools. Everyone sells tools to those guys. All of the tool companies and retailers who sell tools love those guys.

Other guys just need to get things done. They buy the tools they need, at whatever price they can afford.

It's all good.

I believe you misunderstand my career choice.

Buy ALL the tools. "If you got a problem yo I'll solve it".

 

[Ton ton]

I can't wait for the Harbor Freight tool trucks.

Will they be shaped like boats? Kinda like how Carvana put skirting with their branding on regular Isuzu NPR rollbacks to make them look special?

I was hoping Harbor freight would use a farm tractor to pull a long cargo trailer. It would be easy to spot going down the road. Regular tool trucks tend to neglect marketing to farmers and construction dudes.

 

[dchawk81]

I was hoping Harbor freight would use a farm tractor to pull a long cargo trailer. It would be easy to spot going down the road. Regular tool trucks tend to neglect marketing to farmers and construction dudes.

I thought since harbor is in their name it should be pallets on a flatbed shaped like a boat or trash barge.

 

[Ton ton]

Harbor freight could use boat shaped vehicles to service coastal communities. And then use farm tractors with large cargo trailers to service inland communities. I think both ideas could work.

 

[Tomstir]

Not that I'm aware of. The Kabo booth is at the AAPEX show. They have large glass display cases arranged in a U, with desks in the center, and a large round structure in back of the cases with samples of the various tools they make from ratcheting wrenches to Torque wrenches. The KABO booth is very business like with meetings constantly going on throughout the day. Some of their samples will feature brand names such as Cornwell, Matco, and the old SK G Pro series. I've never seen a KABO branded tool. They make tools for a lot of different brands.

KABO

www.kabotools.com.tw

Thanks. I enjoyed your review/perspective of SEMA. Are you at/going to AAPEX? I also watched some youtube reviews of some booths.....wasn't sure of KABO labeled tools. Would be interesting to see the samples with others brands.....although that could cause a lot of issues too.

 

[CGarage]

Icon be like:
Step 1: Buy some tools from alibaba or any other Chinese wholesale site
Step 2: Add the "ICON" label to the tools
Step 3: Lie, lie, lie, and lie even more about them being comparable to Snap On and ****
Step 4: Resell them with a 300% profit margin
Step 5: Profit!

So it seems anything manufactured in Asia is “available off of Alibaba” as per your posts. A common opinion of yours, no doubt.

I guess the billions of $USD in revenue generated and the fact Harbor Freight is large enough to contract with big OEM manufacturers in Taiwan is not something you can comprehend.

 

[dchawk81]

Icon be like:
Step 1: Buy some tools from alibaba or any other Chinese wholesale site
Step 2: Add the "ICON" label to the tools
Step 3: Lie, lie, lie, and lie even more about them being comparable to Snap On and ****
Step 4: Resell them with a 300% profit margin
Step 5: Profit!

Icon seems to compare favorably in objective testing. Not sure it's really a lie.

Similar design, similar performance, significantly less expensive. Don't have to perform exactly the same with a large price difference.

 

[dnschmidt]

Good tools, but overpriced for the most part. They are not that much better than Taiwan-sourced tools from Carlyle, Tekton, Milwaukee, DeWalt, and many others that use the same contract manufacturers. The warranty is a plus if there is a HF near you.

The Icon are considerably cheaper than Carlyle and Milwaukee most of the time. Carlyle, in particular, is very proud of their stuff.

 

[roofdweller49]

Is Icon the easiest way to get one's hands on KABO tools? (widest selection)

 

[M635_Guy]

*sigh*

HF fills the role of bringing products down the price-grid to the broader market once patents expire. It's literally why patents expire. Otherwise, there's no downward pressure at all while they own the patent, and little chance for it to drop into broad-market price points. Yeah, they used to be a store of cheap, funny-smelling ****, but that's at least 15 years past reality today. Well, there are probably a few laggards...

On the Knipex Pliers Wrench example. Several other makers knocked it off (incl. Gedore) before Icon's version came out. The Knipex is $60-$70 (for the standard 10"), so Icon's represents an opportunity to get a well-made (in Taiwan), extremely-useful tool for a 40% savings vs. the Knipex tool-truck-level price.

For a DIYer, that is what closes the equation that makes the savings of DIY possible. That "just spend the extra $25" on a per-tool basis isn't possible across the board for most people. Achieving critical-mass to do enough money-saving DIY things to make it worth it is expensive, even when it's discount-level tools. For me, there are currently six cars for my household (I need to get rid of one), plus I do as much as I can for my mother who's in a tough spot these days as well as my mother-in-law (this morning I diagnosed her dead gas cap tonight with my scan tool and the internet, then fixed it with a credit card, rendering moot all the other tools I'd brought along this weekend just in case ). Even with all those cars and work in the mix, I can't monetize my tools enough to fill my box up with Snap On, etc. (I'm a bad example because I do have a set of Knipex pliers - 3 pliers wrenches, a couple Cobras and a pair of clamp pliers, several Snap On ratchets and other various tools that are much more GarageJournal-approved - and I blame all of you . But those have been treats to myself vs. necessity to get the job done.) Mainly I've got a bunch of tools that are not going to limit the work. They come from a lot of places, with the primary decision-factor being price-performance. (except when I treat myself, which doesn't really count)

My journey to the kit I have started with me trying to use some genuinely-crappy tools and being super-frustrated with my own significant-at-the-time limitations being amplified by my limited tools. To be clear, I still have many limitations, just less these days and with very few driven by the tools.

Most of my "core" tools are Tekton and Icon (and Milwaukee for power tools). I'm pretty confident that a starting tech could take what I have and be entirely as successful with my tools as if they all came from a tool truck. The monetization of that setup would more-than-close for them. And frankly, a kit like mine would be no less successful at the work while giving them the option of putting money in a retirement account while they're young enough for it to matter greatly when it's time to put the wrenches down.

Anyway, I do have a lot of Icon tools. I recommend and defend them, but I don't have an emotional attachment to them that would fit the definition I have of being a "fan". I'll probably keep buying them if they keep doing well in my price/performance equation.

 

[dchawk81]

*sigh*

HF fills the role of bringing products down the price-grid to the broader market once patents expire. It's literally why patents expire. Otherwise, there's no downward pressure at all while they own the patent, and little chance for it to drop into broad-market price points. Yeah, they used to be a store of cheap, funny-smelling ****, but that's at least 15 years past reality today. Well, there are probably a few laggards...

On the Knipex Pliers Wrench example. Several other makers knocked it off (incl. Gedore) before Icon's version came out. The Knipex is $60-$70 (for the standard 10"), so Icon's represents an opportunity to get a well-made (in Taiwan), extremely-useful tool for a 40% savings vs. the Knipex tool-truck-level price.

For a DIYer, that is what closes the equation that makes the savings of DIY possible. That "just spend the extra $25" on a per-tool basis isn't possible across the board for most people. Achieving critical-mass to do enough money-saving DIY things to make it worth it is expensive, even when it's discount-level tools. For me, there are currently six cars for my household (I need to get rid of one), plus I do as much as I can for my mother who's in a tough spot these days as well as my mother-in-law - I just diagnosed her dead gas cap tonight with my scan tool, the internet and a credit card, rendering moot all the other tools I'd brought along this weekend just in case. Even with all those cars and work in the mix, I can't monetize my tools enough to fill my box up with Snap On, etc. (I'm a bad example because I do have a set of Knipex pliers - 3 pliers wrenches, a couple Cobras and a pair of clamp pliers, several Snap On ratchets and other various tools that are much more GarageJournal-approved - and I blame all of you . But those have been treats to myself vs. necessity to get the job done.) Mainly I've got a bunch of tools that are not going to limit the work that come from a lot of places, with the primary decision-factor being price-performance.

My journey to the kit I have started with me trying to use some genuinely-crappy tools and being super-frustrated with my own significant-at-the-time limitations being amplified by my limited tools. To be clear, I still have many limitations, just less these days and with very few driven by the tools.

Most of my "core" tools are Tekton and Icon (and Milwaukee for power tools). I'm pretty confident that a starting tech could take what I have and be entirely as successful with my tools as if they all came from a tool truck. The monetization of that setup would more-than-close for them. And frankly, a kit like mine would be no less successful at the work while giving them the option of putting money in a retirement account while they're young enough for it to matter greatly when it's time to put the wrenches down.

Anyway, I do have a lot of Icon tools. I recommend and defend them, but I don't have an emotional attachment to them that would fit the definition I have of being a "fan". I'll probably keep buying them if they keep doing well in my price/performance equation.

To be fair, they do still have a lot of cheap funny smelling ****.

 

[Ton ton]

Is Icon the easiest way to get one's hands on KABO tools? (widest selection)

No. They don't have SAE Kabo wrenches that I know of. Napa's Carlyle brand does.

 

[M635_Guy]

No. They don't have SAE Kabo wrenches that I know of. Napa's Carlyle brand does.

They seem to have a fair number of SAE wrench options for the Icon wrenches: https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=Icon combination wrenches SAE

If you mean the long-flex wrenches, you're right they don't offer them - guessing not enough people need SAE in that application to bother stocking/warrantying/etc.

 

[M635_Guy]

To be fair, they do still have a lot of cheap funny smelling ****.

I guess. The store doesn't smell funny any more, and very few things seems as 1-and-done/disposable than back in the day. I do remember 20+ years ago wondering whether I was breathing in something I shouldn't...