Any Mainers here - Property line question

[TxAgs]

Good evening all,

I started a thread months ago regarding the planning of a new garage/apartment on our property up in Camden, Maine. Not much progress has been happening, but we did get our property surveyed. This is a crazy one. It appears that all of the structures for a few houses are shifted within their properties. Our house is circled in red. Our cottage, that we are replacing, is right up against the property line. We will have to ask for a variation with the city to build within this setback.

My big question is about the property to the left where the house defintely extends into our property. When we purchased, the "visible" property lines were well defined and we never expected this.

How would you discuss this with the neighbor without becoming a total douche canoe? I can say that the buildings have been in their places for close to 100yrs.

Thanks for any thoughts,
J

 

[M-technik-3]

Looks like a giant headache to me. Sorry to see that.

 

[PCustoms]

When was your house built?

When was the other house built?

I'd seriously question your survey and the 2 adjacent, they all look off.

 

[ConCretin]

I think I'd look for a second opinion before I took any action. I've observed an increased level of incompetence across many professions in recent years. It seems odd that this is the first time this issue has arisen. It wouldn't take much of an error to put both buildings back within their boundaries.

 

[Firebrick43]

The problem is old surveys and markers that would use lat/long cordinates. They were based off known markers that could be sometimes even miles away. Uneven ground, trees/brush, and care of the original surveyors moving the chain caused errors. But that was perfectly fine because they marked with surveyors markers to define the corners.

Then 50 or 100 years comes along some chump surveyor and places the new line exactly to the coordinates based on modern GPS.

The line is historical to fences and markers, not GPS coordinates. Did the surveyor find the markers? Do the markers match the "visible property lines"

The law normally will always side with the original pins/markers/monuments not GPS coordinates. If you surveyor isn't doing that they are twits and need to be fired.

 

[BrandonV]

I think I'd look for a second opinion before I took any action. I've observed an increased level of incompetence across many professions in recent years. It seems odd that this is the first time this issue has arisen. It wouldn't take much of an error to put both buildings back within their boundaries.

This for sure...

Honestly I don't know what you could do besides sell/give a portion of your property away (assuming the lines shown above are actually correct). The only concern I see is some BS from an insurance company about another structure on your property.

 

[Old tool guy]

Approach the neighbor, say “looks like we have a problem, maybe you should have a survey done to see if this is correct”. And tell him who you used so he uses somebody else.

 

[BillK]

First thing I would do is get a second opinion / survey to be sure. Maybe go to your Town / County / State courthouse and see what the tax maps show.

Did you have a title search done when you purchased ?

After all that I wonder if you could just give legal permission to the neighbor to allow him to have his building on your property.

 

[Zeke]

Not uncommon here in coastal CA for houses to move that much. I think they should adjust the property lines.

 

[PoorUB]

I would also recommend a second survey and if that comes back similar to the current survey I would look into a "quit claim deed" and see if you and either neighbor can work out sme land swaps.

 

[P0234]

I agree with possibly needing another surveyor but first your guy needs to be put on the spot for answers. Is he a one man shop or a bigger shop? How long has he been at this. As posted above, these are common issues with older properties.

 

[Dagny]

adverse possession

 

[Shiftless]

When I applied for a permit with the city where I live, I looked at what the city thought was the property line between my house and the neighbor’s. That line went about 2 feet into my house.
I looked at the lines between all the houses on my block and saw that the lines went through structures in about half of the parcels. The guy in the building department said don’t worry about that... we all know those lines are off by several feet or more.
Before building a new fence I payed the most well established and reputable surveyor a couple thousand bucks to settle the question. I now have a document showing the property boundaries to within a tenth of a foot.

Moral of the story… don’t trust something that looks wack-o.

 

[bb29510]

if it was me, i would just keep quiet, dont stir up a hornet nest, during the very old day, survey was crude, boundry marks might be trees and creeks. so if the houses been there a while, you dont expect them to tear it down, so just live with it

 

[bb29510]

this is also the reason,in my area, you cant build within ten feet of the line

 

[The Cobbler]

sorry about your predicament. it might get real ugly before it ( if ever) gets sorted out .
it almost looks like lot 67 is the mistake , with that 25' strip. if that was moved over and the adjacent lines were moved, there woulnd't be that problem.

 

[jack stand]

Is that consistent back line along all of these lots happen to be waterfront?
If for some reason this old existing encroachment (that wasn't a problem apparently until you learned of this old error) becomes a real issue, a simple swap of equal s/f road frontage for rear area. If it's waterfront, you might consider that a win.

 

[mepstein]

What are you expecting your neighbor to do. Even if the house is over the line into your property and you’re saying it might have been there for 100 years, I think it’s a moot point.
I’ve had two surveys done on our property and they differ quite a bit. They also differ from an earlier one that a former owner had done. I was a realtor for 15 years and it wasn’t uncommon for surveys to differ. It shouldn’t happen but it does.
Personally, I would just work on building what you want to build and hopefully get the win.

Love Camden Maine. Honeymooned there 25 years ago and been back many times.

 

[coldh2o]

That doesn't look like an actual legal survey. Looks more like a GIS map to me - those things are notoriously inaccurate.

 

[HoosierMark]

Having messed with real estate for almost 50 years I have seen this before. The issue becomes where did your surveyor start the survey from? In the case I am thinking of, one survey was started from lets say the known north monument and the houses appeared to be crossing the property lines. Another survey was performed starting from a known south monument and all the houses were clearly within their own lots. So you might want to talk with a county surveyor and perhaps your title insurance company. It would not be a title claim but they might give you some guidance.
I would also talk to your neighbors and see if any of them have information about this issue.

 

[PCustoms]

That doesn't look like an actual legal survey. Looks more like a GIS map to me - those things are notoriously inaccurate.

Google maps shows the same, definitely appears to be from GIS data and not a current survey:



Space to the back looks like state/town/forest preserve. Weird that the next lot down is a flag lot.

 

[Zeke]

I think you need to get your shed off the side of the road.

 

[kaffine]

My first thought was the overlay with the buildings isn't placed correctly.

 

[Rusty Wrench]

That doesn't look like an actual legal survey. Looks more like a GIS map to me...

I am a retired professional land surveyor. Did you get a survey or a mortgage inspection?
Post a pic(s) of the Plat of Survey you commissioned, if possible. I would advise to redact the surveyors name and seal.

 

[backupbeeper]

That doesn’t look like a normal Survey to me

The county will likely have on file , a copy of the plat for each separate lot

Your surveyor didn’t survey your entire neighborhood.

Did your surveyor locate and clearly mark each corner pin with surveyors tape ?

And send you a clear map showing exactly where each pin is in relation ship to the other pins and fire hydrants and utility poles etc ?

Because the survey I had done three years ago showed all that .

I knew where all the pins were and had used a metal detector to locate them and clear away bushes etc

Made it very easy for them .

And they didn’t survey every lot on the street , they only did my lot and charged me a pile of money to do it .



I had to have one done because were were wanting to do a large addition and the general contractor required a new fresh survey before he did any work .

 

[LOW1]

I am not a surveyor. Nor do I know anything about Maine law. But around here that is not a survey. It may just be a map prepared for tax assessment purposes.

If there really is an encroachment with an “over the line” building I would consider these options:

1. Ignore nor it. The problem has existed for 100 years. Is it really a problem?

2. A voluntary neighborhood property line adjustment For all affected properties.

3. Court action based on adverse possession, etc. This action will be expensive and may anger the neighbors for years to come.

To see what you are actually dealing with a professional plat of survey will need to first be found and/or obtained.

Once you have that provide copies and have a conversation with the neighbors.

 

[TxAgs]

Hey all! Thanks for the great replies. I didn't mean for this to be a trick question, but it ended up that way. The survey image I posted is from the town GIS department. We had recent survey done and their survey matches the town records exactly. I'll vouch for the surveyors - close friends of ours that have their own company. They know Maine and the nuances to old surveys really well.

All have great ideas. I'm happy to give and take. Honestly, there is a really good "line" on each side of the property that delineates the property lines really well. If anyone gets screwed, its us with a bit less property.

 

[TxAgs]

I am a retired professional land surveyor. Did you get a survey or a mortgage inspection?
Post a pic(s) of the Plat of Survey you commissioned, if possible. I would advise to redact the surveyors name and seal.

Waiting on the official report. We are friends of the surveyor and not a priority at the moment. Self imposed priority!

 

[TxAgs]

sorry about your predicament. it might get real ugly before it ( if ever) gets sorted out .
it almost looks like lot 67 is the mistake , with that 25' strip. if that was moved over and the adjacent lines were moved, there woulnd't be that problem.

Agreed. We have some research to do to see if the neighbor really owns that 25ft or there was a survey mistake years ago.

 

[TxAgs]

I think you need to get your shed off the side of the road.

HA! That black line that runs thru it is the highway right of way. We still have a few feet before its in the way.

 

[TxAgs]

Google maps shows the same, definitely appears to be from GIS data and not a current survey:



Space to the back looks like state/town/forest preserve. Weird that the next lot down is a flag lot.

Yes, we have Mt. Battie state park as our backyard. Part of the reason we bought this property.

 

[krapie]

Did you read the opening page of the town’s GIS website?

 

[PCustoms]

The survey image I posted is from the town GIS department. We had recent survey done and their survey matches the town records exactly.

Waiting on the official report. We are friends of the surveyor and not a priority at the moment. Self imposed priority!

If you're waiting on the report, what "survey" are you matching to GIS?

 

[zak77]

Very common for municipality's GIS to be off a little. Do not go based on what you see but wait for the official survey to get back to you and I highly recommend you make sure it gets recorded otherwise you just have a piece of paper. Typically with land court, the first survey to be recorded carries more weight.

 

[Hooked]

When we bought our property in 1977 we had a survey done which showed one neighbor's surveyor had missed our common property line by approximately 10' at the front and 2' at the back. The neighbor had built a nice stranded wire horse fence along the property line. Before we knew about the mistake the neighbor had already had the fence moved (at his surveyors expense).
Point is, surveyors sometimes make mistakes when the decide on a point to measure from. In our case, there were buried metal markers which our surveyor found during his work.

 

[Chaznsc]

Don’t expect city GIS to be accurate. Only a real survey will tel you this.

 

[My Old Tools]

Just here to say we love the Rockland/Camden area. Can't wait to get back up there in August.

 

[jonesg]

if it was me, i would just keep quiet, dont stir up a hornet nest, during the very old day, survey was crude, boundry marks might be trees and creeks. so if the houses been there a while, you dont expect them to tear it down, so just live with it

i live in maine and thats the way things are done here.
the official maine state slogan is "Maine, the way life should be."
That level of freedom should not frighten anyone .

 

[Joemctag]

Good evening all,

I started a thread months ago regarding the planning of a new garage/apartment on our property up in Camden, Maine. Not much progress has been happening, but we did get our property surveyed. This is a crazy one. It appears that all of the structures for a few houses are shifted within their properties. Our house is circled in red. Our cottage, that we are replacing, is right up against the property line. We will have to ask for a variation with the city to build within this setback.

My big question is about the property to the left where the house defintely extends into our property. When we purchased, the "visible" property lines were well defined and we never expected this.

How would you discuss this with the neighbor without becoming a total douche canoe? I can say that the buildings have been in their places for close to 100yrs.

Thanks for any thoughts,
J

That doesn't look like an actual legal survey. Looks more like a GIS map to me - those things are notoriously inaccurate.

Everywhere I’ve lived, a surveyor would:
Find the markers ( probably iron pins or pipe and likely buried somewhat )
Provide a few wooden stakes on the line near where you’re building ( if you told him you wanted them for a fence or yourbuilding project or whatever).
Confirm that those corner pins are reasonably ( within an inch or two) from where they’re supposed to be .
Confirm that the distance and compass direction from pin to pin are also reasonSbly accurate. He starts by getting a description of your property ( nowadays online instead of actually going to the courthouse and copying the deed.
Gives you a scale map ( don’t know what it’s called in Maine ), showing all the corners labeled, for instance, EIP, for existing iron pin, the distance and direction of all the lines between pins ( ex: 180.00 ft S 36degrees, 56 minutes, W. ) Structures will be shown to scale.
He would not have to do but a fraction of the work as when the land was originally surveyed and divided into lots. These days a lot of surveyors can work alone, I think. The equipment is amazing.
The image you show would not be complete enough where I’ve lived. When you bought your property, a deed , which is not really a proof that you own it, but rather a statement that the property, AS DESCRIBED, was conveyed to you by the seller. Whether he even owned it is not determined by the deed. He just swore he did, and it got notarized and filed at the courthouse. Your mortgage company, lawyer, title insurance company are all reasonably sure everything is as it appears to be. Your surveyor marks your land by finding pins or placing new ones and certifies that what he has staked out is what is actually what is described in the deed.
Sorry this was so long.

That doesn't look like an actual legal survey. Looks more like a GIS map to me - those things are notoriously inaccurate.

The surveyor was supposed to, at the least:
Look up your property description onlin from count record, which I’m sure he did.
Go on your property and find your corners. And mark them so you can see them.
Confirm that the corners and the distances between them and the compass bearings of such lines, are reasonably (very, very ) close to what your deed says is your property.
Maybe give you some intermediate stakes if you tell him you’re building a fence or building or whatever. So you don’t have to try to pull a string 300 ft , with trees in the way and all, to see where your line is in the locations you’re wondering about ( your cottage and the neighbors house ).

 

[firebirdparts]

I’m not seeing a problem. If you think the current survey is right, just quitclaim whatever the neighbors need to be legal.

No problem.