Steve W.
Well-known member
By the way, they're not "Mainers", they're MANIACS. 
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Any Mainers here - Property line question
- Thread starter TxAgs
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Says the flatlander....By the way, they're not "Mainers", they're MANIACS.
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One possible complication is that the OPs and his neighbors’ mortgages and liens may all utilize the “0ld” legal descriptions. When the “New” legal descriptions are created there may be title issues until the owners of the mortgages and liens also adjust their documents to reflect the “New” descriptions. Getting that done can be a PITA.
Buckaroo5
Well-known member
Recently bought some property down near Hocking Hills in southeast Ohio. It was on the books as 38+ acres but had not been surveyed in modern times. The County Engineers office explained to me that the current legal description had 7 exceptions, their current maximum was 2 - they would allow one more transaction but not another one. So I could buy it but would have to get a survey and a new legal description before I sold it. They cautioned me that many times the acreage can change quite a bit with a new suvey in these situations. So I got the survey and new description before I bought it - final acreage came in at 34.4 acres which is a difference of >10%. Bought it regardless as I loved it and it was a great deal but learned a lot in the process. By the way, visit Camden every year and have been to the top of Mount Battie a number of times. Beautiful place!
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My folks in Maine had to buy land their garage was on that wasn't there's because the ~1950s survey was inaccurate vs the 50 yr newer one.
Id imagine a local surveyor and property lawyer knows better than a random internet person.
Rusty Wrench
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As I've stated, I'm a professional land surveyor. Most states, if not all, require a 4 year degree in an accredited survey program. Boundary law and legal research are a significant part of the curriculum. Maine (Orono) has one of the top programs in the country.
After graduation and successfully passing the Surveyor-In-Training exam you must work under a Licensed Professional Land Surveyor in boundary work for 4 years before being eligible to sit for the final exam.
We are within the umbrella organization AES, Architects, Engineers, and Surveyors. It's an esteemed and complex body of knowledge not well understood by the general public, which is understandable. But know this: ignorant aspersions on the professionalism of a discipline one has no knowledge of can be tantamount to 'fightin words'
A little education seemed to be in order here.
coldh2o
Well-known member
Well put. But good luck associating with engineers and expecting to get any respect on GJ...
Firebrick43
Well-known member
So you have never seen a previous surveyors work that was incorrect because every single one is the utmost professional in training and exercise of their discipline?
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Why did they have to buy it? Maine has an adverse possession law after openly and notoriously maintaining a piece of property for twenty years without dispute from the owner. Were they compelled to by a court, figured it was the easiest and cheapest course of action due to the cost of a lawyer or felt it was the right thing to do?
In the property disputes I have been witnessed to, I never seen a decades long marked and pinned property line changed due to a modern survey that was technically more accurate.
Rusty Wrench
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Huh?...
I didn't malign engineers. My entire career was with civil engineering companies. Retired now but associated with and consulted to architects, CE's and lawyers regularly. We all do. It's how stuff gets built.
It’s not you. There are some vocal people here that don’t like engineers in general and he was commenting on that. I just ignore the haters…
The only thing I would add is that surveyors are frequently in a no win situation. Old surveys were based on the technology of the time, which basically was a compass, a transit to see through, a pole held by an assistant and rods and chains.
Earlier surveys also did not all start at the same accurately premeasured spot so there were frequently gaps and overlaps between them. And old surveys frequently used trees, rocks and other "landmarks" instead of iron pins to mark corners. These landmarks frequently get lost or moved. Inaccuracies caused by this are not really mistakes, just unavoidable reality. But surveyors, old and new, also made mistakes. Modern surveyors have to use their professional judgment to try and reconcile these discrepencies but sometimes they just cannot be. Frequently some people are unhappy when this happens.
So surveyors do a lot more than take measurements and draw lines.
Maybe the OP's situation can be fixed with a modern survey and a surveyors judgment but maybe not.
Mainiac Mat
Well-known member
The survey would most likely have been done to the meets and bounds as defined on the deeds, and old deeds and old surveys can often be "iffy".
I think you're going to need to get a real-estate lawyer involved and have both your deed and your abbutters deeds corrected to describe the actual lines that you were looking at (and agreed to) when you all bought your properties. If everyone cooperates, then you can probably tidy this up in a couple months for a thousand dollars each. If someone gets uppidy and decides they want to make their neighbor move their house, you're going to have a drawn out and expensive legal debacle.
As for talking to the neighbors... that depends on your relationship with them. But I'd go to them and say "you're not going to believe this...." and make sure they know that you're not trying to take what's theirs.
Cooperation is going to be key to tidying this up.
Hopefully you all bought title insurance.
I think you're going to need to get a real-estate lawyer involved and have both your deed and your abbutters deeds corrected to describe the actual lines that you were looking at (and agreed to) when you all bought your properties. If everyone cooperates, then you can probably tidy this up in a couple months for a thousand dollars each. If someone gets uppidy and decides they want to make their neighbor move their house, you're going to have a drawn out and expensive legal debacle.
As for talking to the neighbors... that depends on your relationship with them. But I'd go to them and say "you're not going to believe this...." and make sure they know that you're not trying to take what's theirs.
Cooperation is going to be key to tidying this up.
Hopefully you all bought title insurance.
Rusty Wrench
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A few comments.
Thank LOW1 for that. OP did have a survey completed. NO ISSUES. Problem lies in GIS as others have noted. This thread is complete and resolved in that regard.
My rant defending surveyors is based on 30 years of personal experience of reviewing work of other surveyors and having my own work reviewed. It would accurate to describe the vast, and I mean VAST, majority of professional land surveyors.
Firebricks comment about some 'chump surveyor' set me off, even though it was a wildly implausible event. But it was borne, not out of ignorance, but on his own personal experience. In fact, if I didn't hear it directly from him I would have rejected it as hearsay.
I apologize personally to Firebrick and also on behalf of my profession for such an egregious case of malpractice that he was subject to. It's disappointing if these extreme outliers come to reflect on entire population.
Over n Out.
Thank LOW1 for that. OP did have a survey completed. NO ISSUES. Problem lies in GIS as others have noted. This thread is complete and resolved in that regard.
Sure I've seen mistakes. Plenty of 'em. Even made a few myself.
My rant defending surveyors is based on 30 years of personal experience of reviewing work of other surveyors and having my own work reviewed. It would accurate to describe the vast, and I mean VAST, majority of professional land surveyors.
Firebricks comment about some 'chump surveyor' set me off, even though it was a wildly implausible event. But it was borne, not out of ignorance, but on his own personal experience. In fact, if I didn't hear it directly from him I would have rejected it as hearsay.
I apologize personally to Firebrick and also on behalf of my profession for such an egregious case of malpractice that he was subject to. It's disappointing if these extreme outliers come to reflect on entire population.
Over n Out.
Easiest, cost $50, and wasn't 20 years.
Junkman
Well-known member
My parent's home was about 3' over on the neighbor's property, and it was established that the original survey done to split up the tract of land into building lots had an error on day one. Every home on the street was off. In the end, nothing was ever done about it, and I doubt that anyone even knows today, since the mistake happened in the late 1940s and wasn't recognized until the mid-1960s. There was nothing that could be done to fix the problem, so everyone just lived with it. Possibly today someone might have gotten my parent's home issue resolved, because the building lot that the encroachment was on, was never built on. My parents offered to buy half of that lot, but the neighbor didn't want to sell. He was foolish because he could have gotten some money then, but once the home was sold, the new owners were not in a position to buy the half lot. Today, all those people are long gone, so it doesn't matter, or so I believe.
When I lived in New Hampshire I bought a large parcel of land (about 40 acres) and the deed referred to a large oak tree and a snow pile. No one knew exactly where the property lines were nor did they care. I sold it about 5 years later when the real estate agent who sold it to me brought me an offer on the property. I later learned that he sold that lot about every 4 or 5 years and everyone made a small profit on the purchase. In 1962 it was about $20 or $25 an acre. The taxes were $8.50 a year, and you had to go into the town hall and tell them what you owned. They didn't send bills out to be paid.
When I lived in New Hampshire I bought a large parcel of land (about 40 acres) and the deed referred to a large oak tree and a snow pile. No one knew exactly where the property lines were nor did they care. I sold it about 5 years later when the real estate agent who sold it to me brought me an offer on the property. I later learned that he sold that lot about every 4 or 5 years and everyone made a small profit on the purchase. In 1962 it was about $20 or $25 an acre. The taxes were $8.50 a year, and you had to go into the town hall and tell them what you owned. They didn't send bills out to be paid.
Give me a shout when you get back up there. If we still have the boat and the weather is nice, I'll be happy to take you guys sailing. Feel free to PM me.
Exactly. This is like Texas in the 1980s before the religious right took over.
That said, we really aren't concerned with the neighbor on our property. What we are concerned with is how large we can build a garage toward the neighbor to the right.
My wife used to work for a small city and when you leave things alone, all is good. Its when you want to build new structures that you can't get grandfathered in.
Mainiac Mat
Well-known member
As my handle implies... I live in Maine... "western" Maine to be specific (which for the uninitiated is actually southern Maine, but not to be confused with Down East Maine).
I sat on the planning board years ago and developed our wooded parcel by carving off "back lots" and have dealt with surveyors and the code peeps on several occasions. I'm currently dealing with the town because the assessor can't get the geometry to "close" on a lot we sold this past summer (somehow she wasn't aware that we had a plot plan recorded, which would have helped her greatly... just saying).
I love that most of Maine still has a small town rural character and you can actually talk to and deal with reasonable people at town hall. Our code officer has often advised me how to "wiggle" around the written requirements to realize my plans... but so far I've managed to do all by the book. Though I did live in the house I built for 12 years without a CO (I got that squared away when I built a large addition).
I hope the OP can get his situation cleaned up without major hasstle or expense. Please keep us posted how things develope.
I sat on the planning board years ago and developed our wooded parcel by carving off "back lots" and have dealt with surveyors and the code peeps on several occasions. I'm currently dealing with the town because the assessor can't get the geometry to "close" on a lot we sold this past summer (somehow she wasn't aware that we had a plot plan recorded, which would have helped her greatly... just saying).
I love that most of Maine still has a small town rural character and you can actually talk to and deal with reasonable people at town hall. Our code officer has often advised me how to "wiggle" around the written requirements to realize my plans... but so far I've managed to do all by the book. Though I did live in the house I built for 12 years without a CO (I got that squared away when I built a large addition).
I hope the OP can get his situation cleaned up without major hasstle or expense. Please keep us posted how things develope.
My Old Tools
Well-known member
I'll preface this by saying that I have no idea how things are done in Maine. In Texas, you would likely have a problem getting title insurance on a property with incroachments. No title insurance, no loan. No loans, hard to sell.
I don't live in Maine partially because it's oppressive with all the rules and "laws" vs AK.
Oh, and the salt. I enjoy my cars to last more than 10 years! And taxes.
Lived there 18 years, in "the other Maine" so well disconnected from the rulemakers in "north Massachusetts" (haha). Left with the USAF. Family all still does.
My folks had to petition the town, attend public hearings, spend several hundred $$s posting notices and over a year if time just to build a ~300 sq ft shed and it was within 30ft of property lines... of land they'd already gotten ok from the owners.
Here... my first step would be firing up the truck to head to the lumber store!
Unfortunately I expect that there are people who just don't respect the boundries or rules in general.
A lawyer might be the one to intervene and work it out.
If not, where does that put you when it's time for your property to change hands?
Or, in the meantime, what about your liability if someone gets hurt at that house on land that may be deeded to you?
A lawyer might be the one to intervene and work it out.
If not, where does that put you when it's time for your property to change hands?
Or, in the meantime, what about your liability if someone gets hurt at that house on land that may be deeded to you?
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chris142
Well-known member
There's a lot of property problems in my area too. The govt gave you a 5 acre parcel in the 50's. Part of the small tract act.
Some people didn't like a feature on their lot they got so they moved the marker. Nobody thought to check.
Now 60+ years later we are find houses built on wrong lots and what not. My friend ownes his neighbors kitchen.
Some people didn't like a feature on their lot they got so they moved the marker. Nobody thought to check.
Now 60+ years later we are find houses built on wrong lots and what not. My friend ownes his neighbors kitchen.
My Old Tools
Well-known member
We had a case where the crew repaving a street pulled up the survey pins and then put them back after they were done. You know what that looked like. Every lot surveyed 20 feet off until someone resurveyed the pins that don't move.
I'm hoping that working with the town will work out for the better on this. After the survey info was completed and we had everything wrapped up, it turns out that everything is proper within the property lines. Our big problem is going to be a request to build 3ft into the setback.
Just here to say that I spent a ton of time in that area, and you're on the right side of town. My wife and I would hike Maiden's Cliff just down the road as it was a lot less popular than the other trails, yet maintained an exceptional view.
Very nice spot.
Very nice spot.