Wrench97
Well-known member
Man I never cut those tags off, I wouldn't want the mattress police to come get me in the middle of the night.
Anyone here bought a tool box with a lien against it?
- Thread starter ive
- Start date
- Status
Al Borland
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2016
- Messages
- 1,598
Last thing you need is frogmen in your pool at 05:00 searching for evidence with an embedded CNN crew...
bcschief
Well-known member
But you have to know it's stolen property or at least should have known (ie based on the price ) otherwise you just unknowingly bought a tool box with a balance owed.
There is some history to that and its just widely misinterpreted but in short its for the stores. The tag states what materials are used for manufacturing and whether they're new or recycled. As soon as its purchased the tag can be torn off by the owner.
I don't think the act of removing the serial number itself is a felony (especially if you bought it free and clear) or a crime of any kind. Doing it to cover up the possibility that I'd purchased stolen goods is something else altogether, but the property itself would have to actually be stolen goods. Cutting off the serial number because you think it could be stolen merely takes away any chance of claiming you didn't know it was suspicious.
I (heavily) doubt Snap On considers a box with money still owed on it stolen, but I supposed they'd try to reclaim it if it has a lien on it and they know where it is. Lacking that, they're going to pursue the guy who bought it to collect the remaining value of the loan. I don't think I've seen any stories where the police got involved or the box was reported/declared stolen. The cops are likely to say
In any case, all of that makes it easy for me to buy one where the guy can document the box is fully paid off or just buy something else.
Lucid Moments
Well-known member
I'm sorry but you are completely free to remove any serial numbers you want to. It might be evidence of intent to commit a criminal act, but I absolutely refuse to believe that the act itself is criminal. Even for a gun or a car. I a race car that I don't have a title to. I probably can't register it or get a tag for it, but I bought it and paid for it and I can remove the VIN tag off it if I want to.
Lucid Moments
Well-known member
This exactly
It doesn't matter if Snap On considers it stolen or not. What matters is if the law considers it stolen or not. And I did collections work for 20 years. I would have loved to report cars that people that skipped with as stolen but I couldn't.
RedneckWelder
Well-known member
Removing or destroying a serial number on a firearm is good for 10 years of pound-me-in-the-*** federal prison per the Gun Control Act of 1968.
ddawg16
Well-known member
No comparison.
Lucid Moments
Well-known member
You are correct, and I was not. In addition to the National Gun Control Act there is also 18 U.S.C. 922 (k).
Still outside of that one exception my statement about removing serial numbers remains.
No you can't.
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-40/chapter-4/article-2/40-4-21/
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-16/chapter-9/article-5/16-9-70/
Risk of ever facing the man for doing it is extremely low.. but by the letter of the law in pretty much every state, removing serial numbers from anything - not just guns and cars, but almost anything which comes with a serial number on it - is illegal.
And you DEFINITELY do not want to be removing serial numbers from guns. Get caught with a washing machine without a S/N? I doubt you're going to get a second look.
Get caught with a gun without a serial number and you are going to federal prison. ATF is not the people you want to mess with.
pizza
Well-known member
very interesting. never seen such a thing. i wonder if a similar law is on the books in my state. will look into it later for fun.
worth noting that it sounds like they have to demonstrate intent. notably:
sounds like they need to show that you know it's been removed AND that it was for the purpose of concealing its identity.
i.e. playing dumb may get you out of it. lol
looking at it this way made me laugh:
that means that someone who popped off the HF badge -- a distinguishing identification mark -- off their USG toolbox to conceal its identity (out of shame? lol) is theoretically guilty and subject to 1-5 years of time. haha
Lookin4'67Galaxieconv
Well-known member
I laughed when I read "dictaphone" - so old my spell-checker doesn't know it - lol.
I'm not a lawyer, but I think the answer here is somewhere in the middle. The key phrase there is "(serial number/etc.) has been removed for the purpose of concealing or destroying the identity of such article". I'd assume somewhere that is connected to a criminal intent to deceive someone (e.g. sell a USG box as a Snap On) or hide stolen goods.
I do think it is illegal to remove serial numbers in things like cars and guns in any case (and there are probably a few other things), but I doubt if I peeled the serial number sticker off my laptop I've committed a crime. There's got to be something else at play that is criminal (fraud/stolen goods/whatever). I could be entirely wrong...
Sullivan
Active member
No youre wrong.
It is not a felony as you stated previously to remove a serial number on anything other than regulated items like firearms or any other specific items that are actually cited in law. In a couple of states it is at most a misdemeanor offense for a private owner to remove a serial number on their owned property. In other states you must be a dealor or vendor offering products for sale for it to be illegal if its done to prevent ID of stolen merchandise then it may rise to a felony charge. In other states you must be removing the number for the purpose of preventing the identification of stolen items.
Going through all 50 states I havent found a single citation where its a felony offense for simply removing a serial number on personally owned property unless that item falls into a regulated item like a firearm.
Sullivan
Active member
And youre wrong also. There are actually several fed (and state) statutes that cover it 18 U.S.C. § 922(k) is propbably the most common cited and you face up to five years confinement for possessing a firearm that has had the serial number removed or altered.
There are multiple State statutes (about 50 of them) that cover removing the serial or vin number from a car whether or not it is used on public property ie roads.
Sullivan
Active member
No its not every state. Some states simply removing the serial is a misdemeanor, some it has to be with the intent to hide the ID of the object. In other words there are states that if you own the object or have no reason to believe its stolen then there is no law against it.
It is perfectly legal to own a firearm without a serial number. Many guns made before 1968 dont have serial numbers and it is perfectly legal by federal law to manufacture a firearm for personal possession without a serial number. Thats why 80% lowers are so popular. It only has to be serialized if you sell it or give it to someone else.
There are a lot of people making absolute statements without having a clue of the law. Its like a bunch of 13 year olds talking about the powerband kicking in on a 2 stroke.
Last edited:
Lookin4'67Galaxieconv
Well-known member
How are you any different? You have four posts and can't even bother to give a location. Maybe you're correct in your statements but maybe you're full of ****.
ddawg16 is a cop so I'm going to give his input more weight than yours.
pizza
Well-known member
i, for one, liked Sullivan's answer assuming he didn't overstate/******** his legal research. if he is versed in that depth of research, it wouldn't surprise me if he's at least a law student.
and no disrespect -- ESPECIALLY to ddawg16 who i've seen make many informative posts in general -- but in my experience, cops are often not very knowledgeable about the law. funny (and often sad and frustrating!) but true. to my great displeasure, i've endured difficulties due to cops' lack of legal knowledge. haha
i respect ddawg16's opinion on legal matters because of his posts.
and no disrespect -- ESPECIALLY to ddawg16 who i've seen make many informative posts in general -- but in my experience, cops are often not very knowledgeable about the law. funny (and often sad and frustrating!) but true. to my great displeasure, i've endured difficulties due to cops' lack of legal knowledge. haha
i respect ddawg16's opinion on legal matters because of his posts.
Last edited:
ddawg16
Well-known member
Deputy....but close enough
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/769537.html
Specifically to California....this one is what we call a wobbler...it can go both ways.
In most cases, when we come across it...there is the charge of 537e PC, you typically have the add charge of possession of stolen property. It's rare there is only one item. It's usually a lot of items...along with the drugs and guns over in the corner. (need to find the pic of the guy we hooked who had 2 stolen MC's...and a nice AK47 with 100 round drum....and about kilo of meth...oh, all all the TV's in his house were stolen..oh, and he was on parol)
CHAPTER 8. False Personation and Cheats [1720 - 1861] ( Chapter 8 enacted 1872. )
537e.
(a) Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his or her possession any personal property from which the manufacturer’s serial number, identification number, electronic serial number, or any other distinguishing number or identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or destroyed, is guilty of a public offense, punishable as follows:
(1) If the value of the property does not exceed nine hundred fifty dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding six months.
(2) If the value of the property exceeds nine hundred fifty dollars ($950), by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
(3) If the property is an integrated computer chip or panel of a value of nine hundred fifty dollars ($950) or more, by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170 for 16 months, or two or three years or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
(b) For purposes of this subdivision, “personal property” includes, but is not limited to, the following:
(1) Any television, radio, recorder, phonograph, telephone, piano, or any other musical instrument or sound equipment.
(2) Any washing machine, sewing machine, vacuum cleaner, or other household appliance or furnishings.
(3) Any typewriter, adding machine, dictaphone, or any other office equipment or furnishings.
(4) Any computer, printed circuit, integrated chip or panel, or other part of a computer.
(5) Any tool or similar device, including any technical or scientific equipment.
(6) Any bicycle, exercise equipment, or any other entertainment or recreational equipment.
(7) Any electrical or mechanical equipment, contrivance, material, or piece of apparatus or equipment.
(8) Any clock, watch, watch case, or watch movement.
(9) Any vehicle or vessel, or any component part thereof.
(c) When property described in subdivision (a) comes into the custody of a peace officer it shall become subject to the provision of Chapter 12 (commencing with Section 1407) of Title 10 of Part 2, relating to the disposal of stolen or embezzled property. Property subject to this section shall be considered stolen or embezzled property for the purposes of that chapter, and prior to being disposed of, shall have an identification mark imbedded or engraved in, or permanently affixed to it.
(d) This section does not apply to those cases or instances where any of the changes or alterations enumerated in subdivision (a) have been customarily made or done as an established practice in the ordinary and regular conduct of business, by the original manufacturer, or by his or her duly appointed direct representative, or under specific authorization from the original manufacturer.
Sullivan
Active member
Nothing in your post contradicts what I said. As you can see in your first post you made the absurd claim that its a felony to remove the serial number from your own products. Your other post above isnt even applicable to the owner. Its dealing with stolen or embezzled products or the fact that statute itself specifically states "not exceeding one year" which is a? Thats a right a misdemeanor.
ddawg16
Well-known member
It's obvious you have reading comprehension problems
Sullivan
Active member
Im not going to argue your own statements. You keep believing its a felony.
Last edited:
It is a crime to remove the SN on a firearm in pretty much any circumstance? I think it is.
Cars? Probably.
A toolbox that isn't stolen? Probably not, but would look shady and might have some challenges if you couldn't prove it was legally owned by you. (e.g. same box is reported stolen in your area)
But we're wandering away from the topic related to the origin of this thread, which is whether the box itself is considered stolen property if a tech/owner sells one that still has a lien on it. And, separately, whether SnapOn could rightfully come after you/repo the box.
I think it probably wouldn't be considered stolen, but if serialized and a registered lien is in place (which, to my understanding, there would be), I think SO would be able to claim the box. No idea how the mechanics of that would work, and I think it is unlikely - they'll (probably) just go after assets of the guy who bought it from them to settle the lien.
Aside from the fact that I think boxes like this are generally hideously overpriced, the specter of something like is another reason to cast my eyes elsewhere if I was ever going to make a big purchase like this unless the guy could prove any lien/whatever was settled.
If a lien existed I wouldn't touch it.
justanengineer
Well-known member
Not only is it illegal stateside to remove or alter a VIN tag, the law also requires you to register/title a vehicle within 30 days of purchase. Illegal parts cars have been the bane of many pickers, auctioneers, and estates for decades.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited:
Lucid Moments
Well-known member
Maybe so, I have been wrong before and doubtless will be wrong again. But I have had that car for two years now and I have no intention of going through the bother of titling it. It is a fully caged race car and I have no intention of ever using it outside of a closed course of some variety or another. Not the first one like that I have owned and I hope it won't be the last. I sincerely doubt that I will ever have any legal difficulty over it
au contraire, mon frère...
Read again. I'll even bold it for you.
CHAPTER 8. False Personation and Cheats [1720 - 1861] ( Chapter 8 enacted 1872. )
537e.
(a) Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his or her possession any personal property from which the manufacturer’s serial number, identification number, electronic serial number, or any other distinguishing number or identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or destroyed, is guilty of a public offense, punishable as follows:
That is a law, that says in plain English, that if you're in possession of an item which has had it's serial number removed, you are guilty of a public offense. In California the term public offense covers a range of severity. All crimes in the California code (infractions, misdemeanors, or felonies) are under the 'public offense' umbrella.
Note that in the part I quoted, there is no conditional intent requirement. In simple terms, that means that possession of the article itself is a crime, even if it's not stolen and you have no intent to sell it.
And in regards to your previous response to my last post... I said nothing about pre NFA/GCA firearms which often do not have serial numbers, and I said nothing about 80% lowers.
What I said, specifically, was that you do not want to remove the serial number from a firearm which has one. Fun fact- even if that firearm is pre NFA, and you remove the serial number, that firearm is illegal and you'r guilty of a crime. If it's pre-1934 and the serial number was removed prior to 1934 and it's in your possession?? You lose. You go to prison.
So basically, you're wrong. Go back to whatever source of bad information you came out of.
ddawg16
Well-known member
Some people have reading comprehension problems....
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
How does any of this matter?
Without a warrant, you're not seeing anything. So, who cares if the tool box sticker is removed, since it's literally stamped into the steel?
Unless the box is a super limited edition customer color/graphics, it's just a fantasy. All of this also assumes the police are experts in snap on tool boxes, where the numbers are, which years where marked in which ways, etc. Which they aren't. They also need to know that you knew what markings should be on the box, and knew they where altered. For instance, a box from the 80's is painted, and the numbers are now illegible. They're stamped quite thin. Illegal to own?
I'm not advocating for buying a 84" Epiq for $500 from some crack head. But your odds of having issue with a used tool box are 0%. Call the 1800 number if you're worried. But the cops aren't doing **** about it. They have no LEGAL ability to inspect the box, case closed. The only possibility of having any run in with the law is a blatantly obvious chain of custody between the original owner, and the new owner. For instance selling a box one owes money on, to the guy two bays down in the shop. If the shop owner gives permission, the box can be inspected to prove ownership. If not, tool truck guy can get lost, even if the transfer is obvious. Private property and whatnot.
Without a warrant, you're not seeing anything. So, who cares if the tool box sticker is removed, since it's literally stamped into the steel?
Unless the box is a super limited edition customer color/graphics, it's just a fantasy. All of this also assumes the police are experts in snap on tool boxes, where the numbers are, which years where marked in which ways, etc. Which they aren't. They also need to know that you knew what markings should be on the box, and knew they where altered. For instance, a box from the 80's is painted, and the numbers are now illegible. They're stamped quite thin. Illegal to own?
I'm not advocating for buying a 84" Epiq for $500 from some crack head. But your odds of having issue with a used tool box are 0%. Call the 1800 number if you're worried. But the cops aren't doing **** about it. They have no LEGAL ability to inspect the box, case closed. The only possibility of having any run in with the law is a blatantly obvious chain of custody between the original owner, and the new owner. For instance selling a box one owes money on, to the guy two bays down in the shop. If the shop owner gives permission, the box can be inspected to prove ownership. If not, tool truck guy can get lost, even if the transfer is obvious. Private property and whatnot.
Lucid Moments
Well-known member
While I agree with you, it did devolve into a debate about the legality of removing serial numbers. ddawg has shown that at least in California he is correct that it is technically illegal. I strongly suspect that it is one of those laws that is only going to be charged if you are also being charged with other, more serious, crimes. I know the political situation where I live anyway and if the district attorney wasted the courts time with such a charge on its own very often she wouldn't be re-elected. Maybe it is different in different places. Personally I find such laws offensive. If it is mine I can darn well do with it what I will as long as I am not hurting anyone else and the law can fall where it may. I have never actually bothered to remove a serial number, and am probably not going to start now. It just isn't worth the effort for me, but the principal of the issue bothers me.
pizza
Well-known member
it's a shame the serial number legal discussion got a little out of hand, but i thank everyone for their responses. i learned some things.
i think people have demonstrated removal of markings can itself be a crime (which surprised me!), but a point of contention is whether or not it can be a felony as per ddawg16's original statement. i think that's what Sullivan was getting at.
nothing presented here seems to show that it can be a felony, but maybe i missed it.
also, i'm not trying to push anyone's buttons. i'm just curious.
i think people have demonstrated removal of markings can itself be a crime (which surprised me!), but a point of contention is whether or not it can be a felony as per ddawg16's original statement. i think that's what Sullivan was getting at.
nothing presented here seems to show that it can be a felony, but maybe i missed it.
also, i'm not trying to push anyone's buttons. i'm just curious.
Last edited:
ddawg16
Well-known member
Valid point.
A 'Felony' definition varies by state. In California, it 'typically' depends on how long you are in jail/prison. When you consider some guys are in county jail for 2 or more years waiting for trial, you might consider that a 'felony' charge on it's own.
Bottom line.....it varies by state....and other 'conditions'
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
To be frank, it's pretty common within any thread discussing a used toolbox from one of the big companies. I'm not sure if some of the members live where there's a department of toolbox recovery at their local police department, or what the deal is. The boxes are financed through snap on financial. If they cannot repo, it's written off. They dont call the cops to show up at some guys house. That's not how debt works.
Call the 1800 number for.snap on, or your dealer can run the number. Otherwise act in basic good faith, it's pretty easy.
All the more reason to never talk to the police. It can literally never improve your situation. Basic courtesy sure. But I dont chat or discuss anything with anyone.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
JMO.
Ask any attorney and they will tell you the same thing. Anything you say can and will be used against you. Letting them in without a warrant means you can be charged for tampering with serial.numbers on 20yo game boys where the stickers fell off.
As i said, there is no reason to ever talk with law enforcement above basic interaction. You have nothing to gain. I'd love to talk with an attorney about that serial number law. I doubt it can be charged without a related crime. But you'd need a CA attorney to look of the precedent.
Ask any attorney and they will tell you the same thing. Anything you say can and will be used against you. Letting them in without a warrant means you can be charged for tampering with serial.numbers on 20yo game boys where the stickers fell off.
As i said, there is no reason to ever talk with law enforcement above basic interaction. You have nothing to gain. I'd love to talk with an attorney about that serial number law. I doubt it can be charged without a related crime. But you'd need a CA attorney to look of the precedent.
Lucid Moments
Well-known member
I think I have seen a similar discussion one other time and you are right it went more or less the same way. This one went a little further afield with the serial number issue though.
I did debt collections in Georgia for 20 years so I know well how collections works and you are absolutely correct. Debt collection is a civil matter and the police almost never get involved. In those 20 years I did that for a living I only got the police (Sheriff's deputies) involved once, and that was after I had already gone to court to get a writ of possession for an automobile.
Lucid Moments
Well-known member
Totally agree with this.
...but find this a little
My brother is an attorney and he has told me the same thing. Be polite, or even nice. But it is the job of a law enforcement officer to solve a crime and they are as subject to being incorrect as anyone else. No need to make it any easier for them to lock you up.
Lassen Forge
Well-known member
Felonious misrepresentation of a HF tool box. 10 years in the big house. Worse is someone who popped the SO label off their box and put on a US General label (so a scumball wouldn't think it was worth a damn)... Them's hangin' words, padre.
Thing is, you have LEO's like ours who are stretched super thin (and massively underfunded), response times to an active crime scene can be +2 hours... they're busy busting the bad guys down in "the city", you call them up here, they'll tell you "we're 3 hours out". Response to a "possibly stolen toolbox" will get you a "you can all and file a report". Honestly, they're too busy trying to deal with active pube shedders, honestly sketchy, dangerous types, and things like organized scumbaggery to put your "maybe a stolen toolbox" on any kind of priority.
Of course, up, here, the woods are dark, and deep... and tractors, backhoes, and excavators common...
- Status