Anyone really understand well pump systems?

[N_Jay]

Well, the well guy (well respected) (No pun intended) said a 3/4 HP 10 GPM is right for the job.
Being an overdesigning engineer I asked about the advantages of going to a 1 HP, but he did not recommend due to the tendency to short cycle unless the tank was considerable larger.

This is my first experience with well water, although I have helped install a couple of residential booster systems.
Maybe all the friends houses I have stayed at with well had bad tanks.

I am just going to start with a traditional system and see how it goes.

 

[larry_g]

Well, the well guy (well respected) (No pun intended) said a 3/4 HP 10 GPM is right for the job.
Being an overdesigning engineer I asked about the advantages of going to a 1 HP, but he did not recommend due to the tendency to short cycle unless the tank was considerable larger.

This is my first experience with well water, although I have helped install a couple of residential booster systems.
Maybe all the friends houses I have stayed at with well had bad tanks.

I am just going to start with a traditional system and see how it goes.

One thing to take into consideration is how much water your well can deliver. To big of a pump can pump it dry if you are running a lot of water when watering lawns and gardens. Been there done that. Be sure that you have a low pressure cutoff pressure switch to prevent burning up the pump. The low pressure cutoff will shut down the pump if it cannot maintain above 20psi . The ones that I have used have to be manually reset. Not a bad thing because you have to inspect for other failures. A nuisance if your subject to power outages while running water. My son on his low delivery well has a fancy controller that will shut down if not pumping water and then automatically retry after a set time.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[N_Jay]

Well guy said it was a great well, and pulled over 500 gallons out when testing.

 

[dcg9381]

I've dealt with a few wells and due to water quality (hardness) in the area, I eventually moved to water collection, but all the concepts are the same.

Our current setup is about like you describe. Our shop went up first, our shop provides power for the water pump. Initially we used a 3/4 hp 120/240v pump with a built in pressure tank, which was adequate for the shop, easy to setup, and temporary.

Long term:
I bought a 1.5 hp goulds pump. You have to match your desired pressure to the pump's performance. 55/75 is pretty high pressure. I think ours was initially set at 50/70.

I used a PK1A Stop Cycle valve with a smaller pressure tank. I've done it with larger pressure tanks too, but the PK1A is really good about not hard cycling the pump and keeping constant pressure without having to resort to taking up the space of a large pressure tank.

It's CRITICAL that you size not only your pump, but your water line, especially if there is distance from the pump to the residence. We pump about 300' up 10' or so and I chose a 2" line in the yard which results in very little pressure drop. You need a pump that does the desired pressure, desired volume, and the right line sized to the distance and lift.

The other critical thing is to get a pump protector. I really dislike the traditional pump protectors for deep-well pumps, they provide no information. I installed the cycle sensor monitor (https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/cycle-sensor-pump-monitor) - it's analog, tunable, and I can tell you that it's saved our pump more than once. It also shows me how much power my pump is drawing.

This system has worked great. I did turn "down" our water pressure to 50-65 (or so) - largely because the pump works really really hard to get to that last 5psi within it's working limit and backing it off a few PSI really doesn't impact water flow at the house.

Design it so you can by-pass filters and use high quality valves for water line on/off... You don't want to be the only person around that knows how to "turn off" the water, so make it easy/simple.

We have a "pump house" - I've had these with wells also... Ours is on a 30A circuit. Because we have UV filtration and do have to heat both the pump house and some externally exposed tank lines, if I was going to do it again, I'd do 40-50A out there total. I end up using the power off that building all the time...

Last, I've had much better luck using PEX wherever possible on the pumps. It handles vibration better, handles heat better, handles cold better - and it's just all around better than PVC.

 

[Adderall]

If you’re feeling a drop in flow, that’s because the captive pressure in the tank bladder hasn’t been tuned to the pressure switch setting - a surprisingly common mistake.

Whatever your cut-in pressure on the pressure switch, the pressure in the bladder should be set 2-3 psi lower. That has to be set with no water pressure in the system. In addition the accuracy of the pressure gauge found on most well plumbing systems is only accurate to a ballpark range, as are most folk’s air pressure gauges. To get the best performing system, a good plumber will cycle the system a handful of times, increasing or decreasing the tank bladder pressure and measuring the gallons of output before the pressure switch triggers. When you get it right, you get the most useful gallons out of the tank for the lowest energy consumption, and no drop in flow as the pump kicks on.

I’m not a big fan of the variable speed pumps, not when you can get better performance for a fraction the cost out of a large pressure tank set correctly.

Whatever you do, if the pressure tank and switch are in the shop, then you don’t ever want to have a shutoff between the pump and the pressure switch, so rethink the valving in your underground valve box. Otherwise it’s possible to have the pump run uncontrolled against a dead end; no bueno.

Would you be able to explain the problem I've been having for months now?

I have terrible pressure, and the plumbers who have been out, who installed the system, can't seem to figure out the issue. I have a Flexlite FL12 fiberglass tank from 2018, good voltage at the pump, a healthy well, a brand new cut in/out switch, and no leaks.

After moving in i found the cut in switch (set to 40) not wanting to activate. the water pressure was good for a while, but it got steadily worse. This was because the pressure would stop at 41 psi, and not drop lower. The only way I could get the pressure to drop was to open the spigot to an iowa valve outside - the shock would drop the pressure enough to kick on the pump. If i left all of the faucets on, I would get slightly less pressure than someone peeing.

This continued with the new cut in/out switch. Over time I found that bleeding pressure out of the tank was the only way to get the pressure to drop to 39-38. After a month or so it would stop at 41 again and I'd bleed more pressure out.

I found my tank's pressure at 22psi the last time i drained it. I've reset my tank to 38psi twice and each time, the water pressure stops at 56psi and the pressure in my house goes to almost nothing. When I've played with it, the draw down is only about 2 gallons before the cut in is kicked on. the manufacturer says it should be 10 gallon draw down.

Myself and the plumbers are at a loss. When the pressure tank is drained it's clearly empty on both sides of the bladder as it can be picked up easily. My spun down filters (500 and 50)are never particularly dirty, and the softener (autotrol 760) runs without issue, although the clear plastic on top has a bit of greenish stuff growing on the sides.

 

[uscarry45]

If I were building a new place with a well I would highly consider what your doing. I would want a 1000 to 2000 gallon tank setup. The constant on off is what I understand wears out pumps. Depending on your terrain this could set this up so you would have water even without electricity

 

[Solarphil]

Would you be able to explain the problem I've been having for months now?

I have terrible pressure, and the plumbers who have been out, who installed the system, can't seem to figure out the issue. I have a Flexlite FL12 fiberglass tank from 2018, good voltage at the pump, a healthy well, a brand new cut in/out switch, and no leaks.

After moving in i found the cut in switch (set to 40) not wanting to activate. the water pressure was good for a while, but it got steadily worse. This was because the pressure would stop at 41 psi, and not drop lower. The only way I could get the pressure to drop was to open the spigot to an iowa valve outside - the shock would drop the pressure enough to kick on the pump. If i left all of the faucets on, I would get slightly less pressure than someone peeing.

This continued with the new cut in/out switch. Over time I found that bleeding pressure out of the tank was the only way to get the pressure to drop to 39-38. After a month or so it would stop at 41 again and I'd bleed more pressure out.

I found my tank's pressure at 22psi the last time i drained it. I've reset my tank to 38psi twice and each time, the water pressure stops at 56psi and the pressure in my house goes to almost nothing. When I've played with it, the draw down is only about 2 gallons before the cut in is kicked on. the manufacturer says it should be 10 gallon draw down.

Myself and the plumbers are at a loss. When the pressure tank is drained it's clearly empty on both sides of the bladder as it can be picked up easily. My spun down filters (500 and 50)are never particularly dirty, and the softener (autotrol 760) runs without issue, although the clear plastic on top has a bit of greenish stuff growing on the sides.

Do you have a check valve on the line going to the house, right after the tank’s tee and the pressure switch? If not, my hunch is your house is about a hundred feet uphill from the well system (41 x 2.31) or perhaps another pressure tank somewhere in the system is somehow maintaining residual pressure in the system, but I’m going a bit out on a limb there on the second option. Is there a small pressure tank say on the hot water heater?

If you don’t have a check valve after the pressure switch, add one and then try tuning your tank pressure.

You mentioned having reset the tank pressure twice - is it losing pressure on its own, or are you trying to adjust it and then it gets out of whack? If it loses pressure on its own, time for a new tank. If you’re adjusting it, then you can only really do that accurately with no pressure in the system.

 

[kj_mustang]

Adderall,

If after your well pump has run and the pressure gauge at the pressure tank is reading its highest, think your saying 56, and you still have very slow flow in all faucets of your house, then you have a flow restriction after it goes from the pressure tank. I would bypass any filters and softeners and see what it does.

 

[White Shadow]

Maybe I am picky but every time I stay somewhere on a well, the cycling of the water during showers really bugs me.

Get a CSV (cycle stop valve) and you'll never have that problem again. Plus, it will extend the life of your pump due to less on & off during extended usage.

 

[Adderall]

Do you have a check valve on the line going to the house, right after the tank’s tee and the pressure switch? If not, my hunch is your house is about a hundred feet uphill from the well system (41 x 2.31) or perhaps another pressure tank somewhere in the system is somehow maintaining residual pressure in the system, but I’m going a bit out on a limb there on the second option. Is there a small pressure tank say on the hot water heater?

If you don’t have a check valve after the pressure switch, add one and then try tuning your tank pressure.

You mentioned having reset the tank pressure twice - is it losing pressure on its own, or are you trying to adjust it and then it gets out of whack? If it loses pressure on its own, time for a new tank. If you’re adjusting it, then you can only really do that accurately with no pressure in the system.

I do not have a check valve in the house, as the plumbers told me there's one in pump in the well. The run is ~150 yards from the well to the house, and ~15 feet in elevation gain from the dirt to where it comes into the house.

My water heater doesn't mention anything about a pressure tank inside.

The tank isn't losing pressure per se, it's more that the tank bladder loses the ability to contract against the water pressure and I have to drop the air pressure to allow the water pressure to drop.

Adderall,

If after your well pump has run and the pressure gauge at the pressure tank is reading its highest, think your saying 56, and you still have very slow flow in all faucets of your house, then you have a flow restriction after it goes from the pressure tank. I would bypass any filters and softeners and see what it does.

I bypassed the softener and ran with no filters installed and there was no change. So frustrating. I'll probably disassemble and clean the Autotrol just for experience and so it's done.

 

[Copymutt]

Basic system here for 40 yrs. No check valves, no over pressure relief. What has saved me twice is a visible pressure gauge in the garage. If there’s a leak it will become noticeable with the gauge. Likewise should the regulator mess up it’s obvious.

 

[Valveman]

Been watching this forum for years, and just decided to join. Thanks to all those who mentioned the Cycle Stop Valve. Fourth generation well driller and pump guy. Worked on my first water well in 1968. For many years I averaged building and or installing 2000 pumps a year. Studied electronics and even installed many VFD's or variable speed pump systems before 1993. That year I learned that valve control of submersible and booster pumps is far superior to VFD or variable speed. Since filing for patents on the CSV in 1993, I have averaged tens of thousands of Cycle Stop Valve systems every year. Needless to say wells and pump systems are all I know as I have helped with over a million so far.

The important thing I have learned over the years that I can share with everyone else, is that pump manufacturers are not your friend, they are not out to make pumps affordable, long lasting, or even efficient. Pump manufacturers build planned obsolescence into every product they make. Variable speed drives or VFD's are heavily advertised not because they save energy or money, but because they are the most profitable item a pump company sells. They actually make more money these days selling the expensive and short lived VFD's than they do selling pumps anymore. Making you think a VFD saves energy when it does not is just icing on the cake for pump manufacturers. They don't have to do anything else to convince you to spend a lot of extra money on a VFD that is not going to last very long. You think you are being green, saving energy, saving the planet, but you are not. By falling for the hype of VFD's you have purchased a Tar Baby that will bleed your bank account regularly and leave you out of water and standing there with soap in your hair many times over the years.

In 1994 several of the major well pump manufacturers bought and tested Cycle Stop Valves. It took me several years to get the results of those tests. An engineer who retired from one of the companies finally told me. He said after testing they discovered the Cycle Stop Valve was the most perfect pump control ever made. The company called everyone to a big meeting. In this meeting the CEO said..."We have tested Cycle Stop Valves. CSV's make pumps last longer and use smaller pressure tanks. Anyone who mentions a CSV will be fired immediately."

I always thought if you "Built a better mousetrap, everyone would beat a path to your door". However, I learned if you build a mousetrap so well it could make mice extinct, makers of the other mousetraps will disparage and try everything in their power to put you out of business.

If you want to save money, energy, and have a dependable water system do just the opposite of what the advertisements for the big pump manufacturers suggest. They have the millions to spend advertising VFD systems because so many people fall for the hype and spend billions on VFD's, even though they cost a lot more, don't last long, and use more energy, not less.

You won't find a single pump manufacturer promoting the Cycle Stop Valve. But you won't find a single pump manufacturer or engineer write anything negative about the CSV either.

The idea of using a VFD to vary the flow rate while maintaining constant pressure is excellent for water pump systems. Some people are lucky enough and have water systems that are used lightly enough that a Variable Speed pump might last a while. However, for those that see the exorbitant up front costs and/or keep spending money replacing VFD's often there is a better way to get constant pressure. Try the way pump companies don't want you to know about, which is the CSV. There are many other good uses for Variable Speed Drives or VFD's but pumping water at a constant pressure is not one of them.

I will be glad to help answer any questions about wells, water pumps, and pump controls.
Thanks
Cary