Asphalt contractor created new drainage problem

[pr3dict]

I get all sides of this, but it seems like there needs to be a dose of reality too.

In a perfect world, you would have had a contract, with all the work spelled out.

In the real world, guys working these kinds of small jobs often aren't that adept at putting together detailed contracts. And the guys who are good at putting together good, solid contracts aren't going to bother with you unless you have a lot of work, a lot of money, or both.

Doing work like this, with a contractor like this, is a bit like a marriage. You are both stuck in it now, and you've hit a low point (figuratively, as well as literally). You can scream all you want at the guy, but guarantee you'll get better results by trying to work with him. You have to assume the guy didn't start the job with malicious intent, as in, he didn't take the job thinking "Oh boy, I'm gonna screw this customer!"

If this guy can't make it right, then try to come to an amicable conclusion on the bill, and send him on his way. Chalk it up to a life lesson.

I tried, sincerely, Like I said many times. They walked away from a job that they made $1.25 sqft on as of now, which may go to $0. I offered for them to fix their issue to make $2 sqft. Their original idea was $3.83 a sqft. That was their decision. I offered a compromise on a situation I have the upper hand with. If I thought they had malicious intent I wouldnt have let htem work on the project. It wasnt until project got underway that the sleeziness started coming out. Even to the point of asking him as a homeowner NOT a business owner if he would accept the job as it is. His obviously answer was of course looks great. Even though he KNOWS I only hired him because of the water issue. I told him point blank that his competitor was $1200 less then him so he knew the expectations going in.

Life lessons are one thing. I cancelled a doctor appointment today that cost me $50 because it was last minutes (dealing with this ****) thats a life lesson. A $3000 life lesson (6200 for the fix + the $3000 I've spent) is not a life lesson, that's being taken advantage of.

If this guy is running his operation so lean that he cant afford $7000 in revenue shrinkage then he should consider a different business. Especially to make a customer happy that will most definitely spread the word either good or bad.

Its interesting actually... When we need a contractor to do something the consumer cannot do the contractors are all happy and compassionate while they charge you whatever they want because we don't have the upperhand... Now that the tables are turned and they are on the otherside they act like barbarians, yelling and stomping their feet because they are not used to being the other side of the negotiation table. I wonder if in the future there is a world with more transparency and both sides have negotiating power other hten getting multiple quotes. WHICH BY THE WAY, their entire family competes against each other in this area for paving. He joked with me before **** hit the fan that they tried to price protect themselves but one of the brothers didnt play along and that fell a part.


This is why we need more DIY friendly trades. For this reason. Contractors and any industry that does not sell to consumers is bad for consumers and should be abolished. Hard stop.

 

[finn]

Let me start by saying that I started paving in 1970, was a foreman by 1975, and was a foreman for one of the largest general engineering contractors in the Bay Area for quite a while (among others) building freeways, industrial parks, subdivisions, airport runways etc. Also been an estimator/ project manager. General rules of thumb, schidt and water run downhill- takes different slopes to make things work. Concrete flatwork is usually designed around approx. 1% slope, while asphalt concrete should be 2% minimum, as AC doesn't lay as perfectly as concrete and needs a little more help. Pipes have their own specs for drainage. When the original driveway (and house) was built, the total fall to the destination (the street, catch basins or landscape areas) should have been considered as percents of slope. If the house/ garage isn't high enough relative to the destination, you need alternate ways to provide drainage, catch basins, pipes etc.- that still need to outflow somewhere. If that figure is OK, something is wrong in the grading of the driveway, humps or just plain poor grade control. These days most any contractor has a simple laser level that sets up in 10 minutes, some only shoot "level" and more expensive models can be programmed to directly shoot percents of slope. If the paver did not "shoot" it and calculate it out before promising he could fix it, he's not very good at this. If you can find a friend or another contractor to come out and shoot it with you and show how it can work, you should do so- and valid paver should be willing to do that if he wants to get your work. As an estimator, I always carried a small laser in the truck to avoid getting in situations like this, i.e. promising things you can't deliver. A drawing should be done with all the grade points that you can understand, and realize why it isn't working, and then you'll know if or how it can be fixed. If the original guy is unwilling or unable to do this, send him down the road. Also, that joint where it was cut was very poorly done, looks like the new asphalt was laid too high and that's why there's a puddle. We always carried a 4' level or a digital Smart Level to confirm drainage while raking, before rolling it. On freeway jobs we had to hold grade flat and at correct grade, checked with 20' magnesium straight edge. Looks like you paid a premium for poor work, unfortunately. Check the grades with someone trustworthy who knows how before doing anything else

Just curious, but would your company have bid on this small project, and, if yes, how many times the bid quote would your quote have been? 2X, 3x…?

 

[MeanGene427]

Just curious, but would your company have bid on this small project, and, if yes, how many times the bid quote would your quote have been? 2X, 3x…?

Originally I was in a small family business that specialized in private roads and driveways, bread and butter. You can't compare prices from different areas, as asphalt prices follow the price of oil, and I am in Taxifornia

 

[nadogail]

Looks like you were looking for an Asphalt Company that would do a job “on the cheap”.

You found one and now you know why he agreed to work “on the Cheap”. You noted that your contractor did not have a level on the job. Quality Control takes time and to a Contractor, time really is Money.

I see two options:
1, Sit Down with the contractor and come to an agreement on the work to be done and how much you will be paying the contractor.

2, Don’t pay any more money to the contractor and let him try to use the Court to collect on the job. If you choose this option, you best stand by for trouble.

 

[gmcgeo]

Looks like you were looking for an Asphalt Company that would do a job “on the cheap”.

You found one and now you know why he agreed to work “on the Cheap”. You noted that your contractor did not have a level on the job. Quality Control takes time and to a Contractor, time really is Money.

I see two options:
1, Sit Down with the contractor and come to an agreement on the work to be done and how much you will be paying the contractor.

2, Don’t pay any more money to the contractor and let him try to use the Court to collect on the job. If you choose this option, you best stand by for trouble.

option 1 is the best option i have seen here

 

[kwb]

Pay the contractor - the price is fair and the "problem" isn't that bad. You have grade issues that were beyond scope of his work. Discount it 10% or so if you really have your drawers in a twist. Move on from him.

Dig a hole where the puddle is.
Rent a trencher and cut about 30' out in to the grass. (Make sure the trench slopes the right direction)
Go to your local box store and buy a small catch basin, about 30' of perf pipe, a sock for it and about 3 bags of concrete.
Install catch basin - probably 2-3" below the grade of the driveway
Install sock on perf pipe
Put pipe in trench
Backfill
Mix concrete and connect the catch basin and driveway.

If you are working at a good pace you will be done by lunch, if you work a bit slower it is an all day project.

If your soils are lousy then add some drain rock around the pipe before backfilling.

 

[pr3dict]

Pay the contractor - the price is fair and the "problem" isn't that bad. You have grade issues that were beyond scope of his work. Discount it 10% or so if you really have your drawers in a twist. Move on from him.

Dig a hole where the puddle is.
Rent a trencher and cut about 30' out in to the grass. (Make sure the trench slopes the right direction)
Go to your local box store and buy a small catch basin, about 30' of perf pipe, a sock for it and about 3 bags of concrete.
Install catch basin - probably 2-3" below the grade of the driveway
Install sock on perf pipe
Put pipe in trench
Backfill
Mix concrete and connect the catch basin and driveway.

If you are working at a good pace you will be done by lunch, if you work a bit slower it is an all day project.

If your soils are lousy then add some drain rock around the pipe before backfilling.

Sorry it's not reasonable for any of that.. he created a channel with asphalt so now the puddle is surrounded by asphalt on all sides. I don't know where you think I'm cutting a hole and running a pipe without ripping up the driveway.


Goes back to the issue i am having. He created a worse problem then was here before. A problem that is going to costs thousands of dollars to fix. So no, there is no path forward where this company earned the money.


Amazing how quick people here are to give their money away. And no I wasn't looking for an on the cheap solution lol. I'm not the driveway expert these people were supposed to be. If they couldn't do the job they shouldnt have said they could.

 

[American Locomotive]

It sounds like you had two things you wanted done: pave the gravel, fix the drainage.

He paved the gravel - he should at least get paid that much.

However, he should not have told you he could have fixed the drainage issue. Drainage is not an easy thing to solve, and there's a reason why there are engineers who specialize in it.

 

[pr3dict]

It sounds like you had two things you wanted done: pave the gravel, fix the drainage.

He paved the gravel - he should at least get paid that much.

However, he should not have told you he could have fixed the drainage issue. Drainage is not an easy thing to solve, and there's a reason why there are engineers who specialize in it.

Pay for a portion of the job is the advice I hear from a lot of you but again they created a new problem that is going to cost me the amount of the paving to fix.... So again I ask about the below scenario and what would you do in the below scenario because they are interchangeable.

It's the same as if I went in to a shop to make my car faster. They recommend to have a turbo installed on my car to make it go faster for $500 (that is irreversible). But after the install they come back and tell me hey sorry but we realize that now that we did this your car is too heavy and we need to upgrade all your suspension before you can take it. Oh that'll also cost another $500. Oh you don't want to pay that well you can take your car back but it won't go faster it'll actually be slower now and it's going to be more dangerous.
Do I pay for the turbo even though now I need that same $500 to now upgrade my suspension to accommodate the said turbo that the EXPERT told me would be fine? Having a business is not for children. People need to take responsibility and understand the risks of what they do.

 

[pr3dict]

It sounds like you had two things you wanted done: pave the gravel, fix the drainage.

He paved the gravel - he should at least get paid that much.

However, he should not have told you he could have fixed the drainage issue. Drainage is not an easy thing to solve, and there's a reason why there are engineers who specialize in it.

Lol or another scenario... I ask a company to build a bridge that can have cars go over it but also big enough for boats to go under it... The company builds the bridge and the cars can go over it but it was built a little too small so boats can't fit under.


The only solution is rebuild the bridge or trench out below it. The contractor won't do either for the original amount. So do you say sure I'll pay you for the work you did, cars can go over. I guess I'll go find someone else to trench down now?

.... Come on people.

 

[gmcgeo]

Lol or another scenario... I ask a company to build a bridge that can have cars go over it but also big enough for boats to go under it... The company builds the bridge and the cars can go over it but it was built a little too small so boats can't fit under.


The only solution is rebuild the bridge or trench out below it. The contractor won't do either for the original amount. So do you say sure I'll pay you for the work you did, cars can go over. I guess I'll go find someone else to trench down now?

.... Come on people.

Many people here has agreed to the same thing, contractor did his scope of work.
"I guess I'll go find someone else to trench down now?" yes, i think thats what you may have to do, or sit own and talk with the contractor and work something out.

 

[pr3dict]

If your think the contractor didn't his scope of work then you aren't listening to the full scope.of work. Ever heard of user acceptance testing and final sign offs? If this was a government project this guy wouldn't have received a dime until the project was completeled fully. If you only do a portion of the scope then you don't get paid at all.

This, you win the project because you said you coukd do it all but then wasn't able to ans now want to get paid on just what you could do, doesn't fly in the real world.

This isn't grade school, no partial grades are given out. It's either pass or fail and he didn't pass. So he doesn't get paid. Simple business people...

And go read back through the thread. I did try to work something out but he didn't want to negotiate because he's not used to being on the less powerful side of the negotiation table. It was his way or the highway and he took the highway. Because of that and the fact he broke my property and didn't mention it, I've lost faith in his ability to do anything correctly without holding a grudge so he is completely out.

 

[gmcgeo]

Probably because you started saying he isnt getting paid. if i was the contractor i would be going through the courts for the rest

 

[pr3dict]

Probably because you started saying he isnt getting paid. if i was the contractor i would be going through the courts for the rest

Lol well if you are looking at it from a homeowners perspective and after hearing what the contractor promised and didn't deliver AND you still feel that you'd go to court to try and collect... Then you would be just as unethical as this contractor. probably not very smart running such a lean business that if $6k is worth enough to take such a risk at losing your reputation and losing your fight and legal fees. Oh and you'd most definitely lose because you didn't actually provide a written contract you decided to move so fast that you didn't protect yourself.

So I never have I do business with you, can you share if you have one and what the name of it is?

 

[gmcgeo]

Lol well if you are looking at it from a homeowners perspective and after hearing what the contractor promised and didn't deliver AND you still feel that you'd go to court to try and collect... Then you would be just as unethical as this contractor. probably not very smart running such a lean business that if $6k is worth enough to take such a risk at losing your reputation and losing your fight and legal fees. Oh and you'd most definitely lose because you didn't actually provide a written contract you decided to move so fast that you didn't protect yourself.

So I never have I do business with you, can you share if you have one and what the name of it is?

shame on you. taking advantage on this situation. good luck with your river issue. I hope you find someone that can help you

 

[pr3dict]

shame on you. taking advantage on this situation. good luck with your river issue. I hope you find someone that can help you

Ill take shame from you all day if you let me know where you do business so I can stay away. We can mutually agree to never do business with each other.

 

[pr3dict]

Oh and 48 hours later still not draining... But I should pay him for the work lol.

 

[gmcgeo]

Oh and 48 hours later still not draining... But I should pay him for the work lol.

You are right, your car might float away in this. i stand corrected

 

[pr3dict]

You are right, your car might float away in this. i stand corrected

Again, please post your business, if you think you are in the right then this should be free marketing for people to do business with you. Unless you realize that what you are saying is a red flag for people to stay away from doing business with you. Lol put your cards on the table if you think you're in the right.

If floating away is your threshold for unacceptable, then I wonder about the rest of your standards.

How about, "That's enough to freeze, then slip and fall on?", or "That is enough sitting water to eventually breakdown the asphalt in that area?"

 

[gmcgeo]

I have nothing to prove, but evidently you do

 

[pr3dict]

I have nothing to prove, but evidently you do

I have nothing better to do right now then to argue with you... It seems you don't either lol.

 

[gmcgeo]

I have nothing better to do right now then to argue with you... It seems you don't either lol.

i would have responded faster but had to load a couple things, now im back free to argue

 

[Blue]

I'm not the driveway expert these people were supposed to be. If they couldn't do the job they shouldnt have said they could.

Man, that's kinda the reality of dealing with home contractors though. As someone else pointed out, you didn't get any kind of driveway "expert." You got a dude you spread and rolled some pavement. That's it.

When you get someone to do work on your house, you hope for the best, and most of the time it works out. But sometimes you get a dud who overpromises and under-delivers. Those are the breaks.

 

[pr3dict]

i would have responded faster but had to load a couple things, now im back free to argue

Knowing you, probably loaded it in the wrong place but left it because, "It's loaded somewhere."

 

[gmcgeo]

Knowing you, probably loaded it in the wrong place but left it because, "It's loaded somewhere."

You know me very well.

 

[pr3dict]

Man, that's kinda the reality of dealing with home contractors though. As someone else pointed out, you didn't get any kind of driveway "expert." You got a dude you spread and rolled some pavement. That's it.

When you get someone to do work on your house, you hope for the best, and most of the time it works out. But sometimes you get a dud who overpromises and under-delivers. Those are the breaks.

Thats why I try to do my research beforehand. This company came with great reviews online and they specifically listed:

Complete Services Include​

• Storm drainage installations and repairs
• Grading
• Cutting driveways, roads, and parking lots
• Deliveries of stone, fill, and topsoil
• Concrete
• Sidewalks
• Curbing

This is why I err on the side of doing as much as I can myself. But I'm Definitely not paying for people to not give me exactly what we agreed upon. No moving goal posts closer or further after the project starts.

 

[John McA]

Thank you op - wonderful entertainment this morning.

Lessons learned from both parties:
1. Always use a contract.
2. New Jersey.

Good luck,
John McA

 

[gmcgeo]

Thank you op - wonderful entertainment this morning.

Lessons learned from both parties:
1. Always use a contract.
2. New Jersey.

Good luck,
John McA

It did make work go by faster lol, now in 5 mins i got to go back to life and i will resurface on Monday, this thread will most likely get shutdown. Later guys!

 

[American Locomotive]

Oh and 48 hours later still not draining... But I should pay him for the work lol.

There is pavement, where there was once gravel. At the very least he should get paid for the material that is on your property.
But more importantly, I can even see in that photo that the dirt around the driveway is significantly higher. It likely isn't going to drain like that, ever. The asphalt contractor likely thought if he could at least get the water over to the edge of the dirt, it might percolate into the ground.

The ground needs to be lower, the driveway much higher, or a fully engineered draining system installed. Those are the only three things that will fix the issue.

You hired a paving company when you really needed to hire a hydrologist.

 

[Blue]

Thats why I try to do my research beforehand.

Yup, and like I said, most of the time it works out. This is one of those times where it didn't.

As has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, you have two paths:

1.) Conflict, lawyers, chargebacks, etc
2.) Working with the contractor to come to some sort of compromise.

You seem bent on path 1, which is certainly your prerogative. Many of the folks in this thread are recommending path 2.

 

[pr3dict]

There is pavement, where there was once gravel. At the very least he should get paid for the material that is on your property.
But more importantly, I can even see in that photo that the dirt around the driveway is significantly higher. It likely isn't going to drain like that, ever. The asphalt contractor likely thought if he could at least get the water over to the edge of the dirt, it might percolate into the ground.

The ground needs to be lower, the driveway much higher, or a fully engineered draining system installed. Those are the only three things that will fix the issue.

You hired a paving company when you really needed to hire a hydrologist.

You keep ignoring the other comparable scnearios. You keep saying to pay for 1 thing when in reality that 1 thing is not a separate project. They were all connected. If he did 1 and it made a new problem and didnt fix the new problem then he shouldnt get paid for anything. ?!?!? You going to answer what you would do in these situations outlined below?

 

[pr3dict]

Yup, and like I said, most of the time it works out. This is one of those times where it didn't.

As has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, you have two paths:

1.) Conflict, lawyers, chargebacks, etc
2.) Working with the contractor to come to some sort of compromise.

You seem bent on path 1, which is certainly your prerogative. Many of the folks in this thread are recommending path 2.

Path 2 was tried...

"They just came, and left, because while I offered to pay them an additional $1000 on top of the original $6760, they wouldnt repave the entire "original" driveway to ensure it was graded correctly and fix the problem. So essentially I offered to pay them $8760 for roughly 4400sqft of work. Which is ~$2.00 a sqft. Instead they walked away from the project after I paid them $3000 for ~2400sqft so $1.25 a sqft."

^^^ That must have gotten lost in the thread.

 

[American Locomotive]

There is nothing that can be done to the driveway to solve this. Your yard needs to be excavated or an engineered draining solution installed along your driveway.

 

[whateg01]

You're starting to sound a little whiney.

 

[pr3dict]

You're starting to sound a little whiney.

Yeah I feel that. It must have something to do with me going from defending the problem here to apparently defending my character... Usually that's what happens when people are criticized and condemned by disregarding the facts

But at this point the original question is over as I already am going down the path of getting different estimates to fix.

 

[Zeke]

This is why we need more DIY friendly trades. For this reason. Contractors and any industry that does not sell to consumers is bad for consumers and should be abolished. Hard stop.

What??

 

[dchawk81]

This is why we need more DIY friendly trades. For this reason. Contractors and any industry that does not sell to consumers is bad for consumers and should be abolished. Hard stop.

I'm honestly not sure what this paragraph even means.

Are you saying NJ has laws against homeowners working on their own properties?

 

[John McA]

Greetings,
Please: Explain what "DIY friendly trades" means? Use examples. How does this work?

Thank you,
John McA

 

[65ranchero]

It looks like the OP wants to get DIY pricing from a contractor.
I'm sure he can DIY the project if: he can rent a roller, hire out the transport of the materials, , and get the plant to sell him the product and grade by hand, all by himself.

 

[pr3dict]

What??

I'm honestly not sure what this paragraph even means.

Are you saying NJ has laws against homeowners working on their own properties?

Greetings,
Please: Explain what "DIY friendly trades" means? Use examples. How does this work?

Thank you,
John McA

Sorry - For clarification I mean industries where the manufacturers of said products that we need will only sell through a dealer or distributor(And then distributors that only sell to dealers, etc)...

Air conditioners for instance. I couldnt buy a new carrier Air conditioning to have installed myself when I tried. They protect "The channel" by not allowing direct to consumer.

Same with my industry, I am in the security industry. Unless you want "consumer" alarm systems or security equipment (CCTV, Access contro, etc) you must go through their authorized dealer network which just addeds costs even if they arent installing.

I recently got a https://www.tonal.com/. <--- they would not allow self install. Had to pay $300 for 3 guys to show up in a mini van to install a bracket on a stud wall build out that I made in my basement then they just hung the product on the wall. Again not consumer friendly.

So to clarify, I guess I should say specifically, manufacturers that protect their distribution channel vs allowing buying direct is hurtful to consumers not helpful.