Auto-Cle

[AntiqueBen]

Looks like Q.M.S. acquired R.A.C. at least as early as January 1907.

Here's something interesting I found in a 1910 issue of Hendrick's Commercial Register. It appears as though they've listed both Q.M.S. & R.A.C. as Auto-Cle manufacturers, but it's how they listed it. It's like they've listed R.A.C. as manufacturer of the "ratchet only" & Q.M.S. as the manufacturer of the rest I guess. Google Books lists this as dated 1910. The only date I could find on the book (unless I missed it) was all the way at the bottom where the University of Michigan stamped it November 22, 1910. Maybe the book is older than 1910. I'll have to take a closer look. This 1910 date doesn't make sense if Q.M.S. acquired R.A.C. in 1907. Am I overlooking something here?

Hendricks' Commercial Register of the United States

books.google.com

 

[four.cycle]

"University of Michigan stamped it November 22, 1910"
I just engaged online with Amy, an online librarian "chat assistant" (and clearly NOT "AI") and the best reasonable assumption is that is the acquisition date of the volume in question; the date on which UofM put that volume into their collection.
(She noted that was only a best assumption, but to confirm you'd have to contact the library: https://www.lib.umich.edu/locations-and-hours/special-collections-research-center)

 

[AntiqueBen]

"University of Michigan stamped it November 22, 1910"
I just engaged online with Amy, an online librarian "chat assistant" (and clearly NOT "AI") and the best reasonable assumption is that is the acquisition date of the volume in question; the date on which UofM put that volume into their collection.
(She noted that was only a best assumption, but to confirm you'd have to contact the library: https://www.lib.umich.edu/locations-and-hours/special-collections-research-center)

Thanks for.cycle. Finding out the date will be interesting due to the interesting entry on Q.M.S. & R.A.C. regarding Auto-Cle.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

It's dated 1910. The masthead and colophon in directories like Hendricks and many others is not on page 1. It's always a bunch of ads first. If you go to the top and then scroll down, past a bunch of ads, you will eventually see it. Page 19 or so. Hendricks was established in 1891 and that is their 19th annual edition. As for both Q.M.S. and R.A.C. being listed, I think it's just a mistake, a discrepancy, on Hendricks' part. If it was a state or a federal document, it would give me more pause. Omitting a company would be worse than just accumulating too many. I suspect they just didn't catch that Q.M.S. had taken over their business.

 

[AntiqueBen]

It's dated 1910. The masthead and colophon in directories like Hendricks and many others is not on page 1. It's always a bunch of ads first. If you scroll down, past dozens of ads, you will eventually see it. Hendricks was established in 1891 and that is their 19th annual edition. As for both Q.M.S. and R.A.C. being listed, I think it's just a mistake, a discrepancy, on Hendricks' part. If it was a state or a federal document, it would give me more pause. Omitting a company would be worse than just accumulating too many. I suspect they just didn't catch that Q.M.S. had taken over their business.

That's true, but it's interesting how they separated the manufacturer of the ratchet from the rest.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

...but it's interesting how they separated the manufacturer of the ratchet from the rest.

It is. Consistent with the rest of industry, by the way, well into the 'Teens. I have several early socket wrench sets where all the sockets are from Mossberg and only the ratchet and handles are uniquely made and branded. But it would be more interesting to see what corporate attributions Hendricks makes for the Auto-Cle in 1904, 1905, 1906, and 1907.

 

[AntiqueBen]

It is. Consistent with the rest of industry, by the way, well into the 'Teens. I have several early socket wrench sets where all the sockets are from Mossberg and only the ratchet and handles are uniquely made and branded. But it would be more interesting to see what corporate attributions Hendricks makes for the Auto-Cle in 1904, 1905, 1906, and 1907.

Yes, those years would be interesting to see. Could we assume if they did forget to remove this entry, that would imply this entry looked like this before. Question is...what year?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Also, if you read "R.A.C." not strictly as a distinct business entity, but as the factory in the Old Colony Building where they were making the Auto-Cle before and after Q.M.S. took over their concern, the page may not be entirely inaccurate. The Plainfield address is where they set up Motor Parts Co. There is no evidence that R.A.C. ever used Mossberg for the sockets. But we know that Q.M.S. did. They could've been making the ratchet and perhaps even the other handle parts in Chicago (where F.H. Ayer would eventually make a very similar one!), getting the sockets from Mossberg, and putting it altogether in Plainfield.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Also, if you read "R.A.C." not strictly as a distinct business entity, but as the factory in the Old Colony Building where they were making the Auto-Cle before and after Q.M.S. took over their concern, the page may not be ntirely inaccurate. The Plainfield address is where they set up Motor Parts Co. There is no evidence that R.A.C. ever used Mossberg for the sockets. But we know that Q.M.S. did. They could've been making the ratchet and perhaps even the other handle parts in Chicago (where F.H. Ayer would eventually make a very similar one!) and getting the sockets from Mossberg.

Yes. This also backs up the theory why the sockets may or may not be marked since all the parts of the Auto-Cle set was not all manufactured under the same roof. It could have been the same way in France & England.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Here is the 1909, just a year before, and it only cites R.A.C. for the Auto-Cle, lending credence to the idea that this particular business transition has just not caught up to Hendricks' registry yet.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Here is the 1909, just a year before, and it only cites R.A.C. for the Auto-Cle, lending credence to the idea that this particular business transition has just not caught up to Hendricks' registry yet.

I realize Hendricks had a mother ton of information in it, but several years to get caught up for correct information
Although it was over 100 years ago. Gotta love the information age we live in

 

[Private Lugnutz]

In matters like this, I always go with Occam. Is it more likely that all those other ads and articles in multiple trade journals that show the transfer of the Auto-Cle line from R.A.C. to Q.M.S. in 1907 are wrong? Or an entry in a 1909 and 1910 Hendricks registry? It's basically the Brass Era yellow pages, with ads. Again, we're not dealing with city, state and federal revenue and tax documents here. Or the USPTO. It's notable. But it doesn't undo everything else at this time, for me. The 1923 Hendricks only cites Mossberg for Auto-Cle, btw. By that time, everyone else who had ever been using the brand in some way was gone and Mossberg was a few years from almost going under themselves, merging with APCO instead.

 

[AntiqueBen]

In matters like this, I always go with Occam. Is it more likely that all those other ads and articles in multiple trade journals that show the transfer of the Auto-Cle line from R.A.C. to Q.M.S. in 1907 are wrong? Or an entry in a 1909 and 1910 Hendricks registry? It's basically the Brass Era yellow pages, with ads. Again, we're not dealing with city, state and federal revenue and tax documents here. Or the USPTO. It's notable. But it doesn't undo everything else at this time, for me. The 1923 Hendricks only cites Mossberg for Auto-Cle, btw. By that time, everyone else who had ever been using the brand in some way was gone and Mossberg was a few years from almost going under themselves, merging with APCO instead.

Absolutely. Agreed It will be interesting to see what else we can find. I know there's more out there. I'm going to try to find some older French info, but I'm sure it won't be easy to find.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The April 4, 1903 edition of The Autocar, includes an ad for "L'Auto Cle spanners" being sold by United Motor Industries, 45 Great Marlborough St, London. That is just two months after they were exhibited by Contal and Electromobile at the Crystal Palace show, which I posted upthread. Note that it's several months before the British patent was issued. It also includes a nifty article (page 13), but the ad (page xxix) is more important. It shows they were being manufactured for retail. Probably only in France at that time, if I had to postulate. Linked here.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I was going through all the ads & articles that have been posted. There is one Motor Field ad dated June 1905 talking quite specifically about the Auto-Cle, how it works, socket info, etc. During this time Auto-Cle was being manufactured by the Geo. P. Moore Co. They mention how the sockets are arranged in succession so you can easily notice the size you need. I feel like they would have mentioned if the sockets were marked since they were being so specific on their description. Why mention they are positioned in the box by succession of size if they are marked? Just spit balling here, but could a set of unmarked sockets been made by G.P.M. Co.? Could be why there would be a high serial number French marked ratchet with a set of unmarked sockets.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Found these pics online of an Auto-Cle ratchet. It certainly changed design over time. Completely different design from the original.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Ben,

Two things:

(1) Don't overlook post #134 just because there is no attachment! I thought you'd be jumping up and down about that one. Let me put it another way. If I had an early Auto-Cle set in a unique wooden box with no markings and no British patent number brass badge affixed to it with sockets with no markings and a ratchet bearing a very low S/N, and I purchased it in England, I'd probably be claiming it may have been originally sold at a store on Marlborough Way in London!

(2) I discussed the Geo. P. Moore article and ad in the Motor Field trade mag upthread. See post #76. It's very important. But note that neither the article or the ad indicates that Geo. P. Moore was manufacturing the Auto-Cle. It says it was "carried" by them. Geo. P. Moore was not a manufacturer. They were a retailer. They would have been importing them, likely from France. And the sets would very likely be 7/16-inch drive. (You can see that the figure they were using is a set with the tension springs in the drive plug and extension.) As discussed upthread and as shown on the timeline chart. Whether or not the sockets would be marked or unmarked in the summer of 1905 is not known. We need a lot more sets to untangle that sequence dilemma.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Ben,

Two things:

(1) Don't overlook post #134 just because there is no attachment! I thought you'd be jumping up and down about that one. Let me put it another way. If I had an early Auto-Cle set in a unique wooden box with no markings and no British patent number brass badge affixed to it with sockets with no markings and a ratchet bearing a very low S/N, and I purchased it in England, I'd probably be claiming it may have been originally sold at a store on Marlborough Way in London!

(2) I discussed the Geo. P. Moore article and ad in the Motor Field trade mag upthread. See post #76. It's very important. But note that neither the article or the ad indicates that Geo. P. Moore was manufacturing the Auto-Cle. It says it was "carried" by them. Geo. P. Moore was not a manufacturer. They were a retailer. They would have been importing them, likely from France. And the sets would very likely be 7/16-inch drive. (You can see that the figure they were using is a set with the tension springs in the drive plug and extension.) As discussed upthread and as shown on the timeline chart. Whether or not the sockets would be marked or unmarked in the summer of 1905 is not known. We need a lot more sets to untangle that sequence dilemma.

For some reason I let it fly right over my head that George P. Moore was a retailer/distributor & not a manufacturer...duh! Thanks for pulling me out of the weeds
Your right about post #134. I guess I've been focused on the ratchet being French. We definitely need more sets & pics to untie the Auto-Cle knot.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I guess I've been focused on the ratchet being French.

Right, but so is FJ's and PE's. My hunch is that the ratchets, and maybe all the handle pieces, were still being made in France, even for their British badged sets. Don't get me wrong, your whole set, box and all, may very well have been made in France, we just don't have anything to tie it to France yet. You having purchased it in England ties it to England, at least for me. If you think about it, there's not much difference. A set for sale in Paris in 1903 would look like a set imported by United Motor Industries for sale in London in 1903. If we find a set in France matching your set's characteristics I would be the first to hail your French set!

Found these pics online of an Auto-Cle ratchet. It certainly changed design over time. Completely different design from the original.

Based on the stamped logo, I'd say post-Q.M.S. Mossberg branded set from the early 'Teens. Not sure I'd agree with "completely" different. The basic principle is still the same. Coarse-tooth clutch type tubular device with a ring to switch directions. The ring is different. The tube has been squared off on the drive end. And the folding L handle has been replaced by a larger cross bar. But the patented mechanism is the same. It sure is strange to see after looking at the earlier models. It wouldn't be long before Mossberg dropped it in favor of a more conventional ratchet of pressed-steel construction.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I know we're concentrating on pre-Mossberg sets in this thread, and rightly so. But Mossberg continues to haunt the discussion, and I thought I would set the record straight once and for all. AA gets a lot of things wrong about Auto-Cle. They have only a vague understanding of the production by Contal in France. They have no awareness of the British patent and sets. And they pretty much skim right over R.A.C. into Q.M.S. But it's their entire section on Q.M.S. and Mossberg that is most misinformative, starting with this statement...

"After acquiring the rights to the Auto-Clé line in 1908, Mossberg continued to supply the sets to Q.M.S. for some years."

The first clause is just plain wrong!

AA provides no documentation for this supposed acquisition. Their erroneous conclusion is based entirely on their misinterpretation of, and inordinately weighted credence to, one misleading notice in a trade mag announcing that Mossberg was manufacturing the sets "formerly manufactured by" Q.M.S.

Unfortunately, the ripple effects of them misreading it, ignoring other trade mags that described it differently (Mossberg being added as a distributor), and giving far too much weight to it without any evidence of an actual acquisition taints their entire section on Auto-Cle and Mossberg, causing them to ignore or badly misinterpret the arrangement that Q.M.S. (Motor Parts Co.) had with Mossberg that is consistently established by numerous ads from 1909 through 1914 identifying Q.M.S. as the manufacturer, Mossberg as one of two different distributors, and also as a manufacturer.

AA seems to be completely unaware of the fact that Q.M.S. filed for a trademark application for the term "Auto-Cle" in October 1909 and that Q.M.S. was granted that TM in January 1910.



Note: Recognition of first use by their predecessor (that would be R.A.C.) on or about October 1904!



How could Q.M.S. file and be granted a TM for Auto-Cle as a name for a line of socket wrenches they supposedly sold to Mossberg almost two years earlier?!

Note further that there is no record of Mossberg owning the Auto-Cle TM and there is no record of any kind of any re-assignment of the Auto-Cle TM in the USPTO Trademark Status and Document Retrieval database from Q.M.S. to any other entity. It ended with Q.M.S. and any usage of it by Mossberg was part of their contractual arrangements with Q.M.S.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

I know we're concentrating on pre-Mossberg sets in this thread, and rightly so. But Mossberg continues to haunt the discussion, and I thought I would set the record straight once and for all. AA gets a lot of things wrong about Auto-Cle. They have only a vague understanding of the production by Contal in France. They have no awareness of the British patent and sets. And they pretty much skim right over R.A.C. into Q.M.S. But it's their entire section on Q.M.S. and Mossberg that is most misinformative, starting with this statement...

"After acquiring the rights to the Auto-Clé line in 1908, Mossberg continued to supply the sets to Q.M.S. for some years."

The first clause is just plain wrong!

AA provides no documentation for this supposed acquisition. Their erroneous conclusion is based entirely on their misinterpretation of, and inordinately weighted credence to, one misleading notice in a trade mag announcing that Mossberg was manufacturing the sets "formerly manufactured by" Q.M.S.

Unfortunately, the ripple effects of them misreading it, ignoring other trade mags that described it differently (Mossberg being added as a distributor), and giving far too much weight to it without any evidence of an actual acquisition taints their entire section on Auto-Cle and Mossberg, causing them to ignore or badly misinterpret the arrangement that Q.M.S. (Motor Parts Co.) had with Mossberg that is consistently established by numerous ads from 1909 through 1914 identifying Q.M.S. as the manufacturer, Mossberg as one of two different distributors, and also as a manufacturer.

AA seems to be completely unaware of the fact that Q.M.S. filed for a trademark application for the term "Auto-Cle" in October 1909 and that Q.M.S. was granted that TM in January 1910.



Note: Recognition of first use by their predecessor (that would be R.A.C.) on or about October 1904!



How could Q.M.S. file and be granted a TM for Auto-Cle as a name for a line of socket wrenches they supposedly sold to Mossberg almost two years earlier?!

Note further that there is no record of Mossberg owning the Auto-Cle TM and there is no record of any kind of any re-assignment of the Auto-Cle TM in the USPTO Trademark Status and Document Retrieval database from Q.M.S. to any other entity. It ended with Q.M.S. and any usage of it by Mossberg was part of their contractual arrangements with Q.M.S.

You amaze me with your follow through. Amazing research.

 

[AntiqueBen]

I know we're concentrating on pre-Mossberg sets in this thread, and rightly so. But Mossberg continues to haunt the discussion, and I thought I would set the record straight once and for all. AA gets a lot of things wrong about Auto-Cle. They have only a vague understanding of the production by Contal in France. They have no awareness of the British patent and sets. And they pretty much skim right over R.A.C. into Q.M.S. But it's their entire section on Q.M.S. and Mossberg that is most misinformative, starting with this statement...

"After acquiring the rights to the Auto-Clé line in 1908, Mossberg continued to supply the sets to Q.M.S. for some years."

The first clause is just plain wrong!

AA provides no documentation for this supposed acquisition. Their erroneous conclusion is based entirely on their misinterpretation of, and inordinately weighted credence to, one misleading notice in a trade mag announcing that Mossberg was manufacturing the sets "formerly manufactured by" Q.M.S.

Unfortunately, the ripple effects of them misreading it, ignoring other trade mags that described it differently (Mossberg being added as a distributor), and giving far too much weight to it without any evidence of an actual acquisition taints their entire section on Auto-Cle and Mossberg, causing them to ignore or badly misinterpret the arrangement that Q.M.S. (Motor Parts Co.) had with Mossberg that is consistently established by numerous ads from 1909 through 1914 identifying Q.M.S. as the manufacturer, Mossberg as one of two different distributors, and also as a manufacturer.

AA seems to be completely unaware of the fact that Q.M.S. filed for a trademark application for the term "Auto-Cle" in October 1909 and that Q.M.S. was granted that TM in January 1910.



Note: Recognition of first use by their predecessor (that would be R.A.C.) on or about October 1904!



How could Q.M.S. file and be granted a TM for Auto-Cle as a name for a line of socket wrenches they supposedly sold to Mossberg almost two years earlier?!

Note further that there is no record of Mossberg owning the Auto-Cle TM and there is no record of any kind of any re-assignment of the Auto-Cle TM in the USPTO Trademark Status and Document Retrieval database from Q.M.S. to any other entity. It ended with Q.M.S. and any usage of it by Mossberg was part of their contractual arrangements with Q.M.S.

Well put Lugz. The Mossberg/Auto-Cle section of AA is a prime example that not everything you read on AA is correct. Don't get me wrong, it's a good site with lots of great information, but it can't be your primary or only source of information for the very reasons you point out. It's unfortunate in the case for Auto-Cle because the information is so butchered. For people that go to AA wanting to find out or learn more about Auto-Cle, unfortunately they will be misled or at best only get part of the story. Hopefully they will find their way to this thread

 

[AntiqueBen]

I reached out & emailed the author of the Tricars website to see if he can shed any light or provide any resources on Contal & his endeavors. I thought its worth a shot. It might yield some information we're looking for. I'll keep the thread posted as I learn anything.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I reached out & emailed the author of the Tricars website to see if he can shed any light or provide any resources on Contal & his endeavors. I thought its worth a shot. It might yield some information we're looking for. I'll keep the thread posted as I learn anything.

Note that @Farmer J. had contacted them in 2020 and got a reply from someone named Dominique, which he posted in the original thread, linked here. It was nice to hear from them, and it was a nice summary, but didn't provide any information we didn't already have or derive. If you get into a new exchange with them, I would be more direct this time around. I suggest you ask, if you haven't done so already, if they have in their possession or if they know of any surviving examples of the earliest L'Auto-Cle kits - the tools (ratchet, drive plug, extension, and sockets), and the leather case (for the small set) and the wooden box (for the large set) manufactured by Contal's company in France. And if so, get photos.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Note that @Farmer J. had contacted them in 2020 and got a reply from someone named Dominique, which he posted in the original thread, linked here. It was nice to hear from them, and it was a nice summary, but didn't provide any information we didn't already have or derive. If you get into a new exchange with them, I would be more direct this time around. I suggest you ask, if you haven't done so already, if they have in their possession or if they know of any surviving examples of the earliest L'Auto-Cle kits - the tools (ratchet, drive plug, extension, and sockets), and the leather case (for the small set) and the wooden box (for the large set) manufactured by Contal's company in France. And if so, get photos.

Yes, my goal is to try and get good pics of other sets including all the pieces in the set so hopefully we can learn something from them.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Found another set. Like the one pictured above, the design is certainly different. This is in a mossberg stamped box. Interesting to compare side by side. Here are some pics.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

One more of the logo

 

[AntiqueBen]

Found another set. Like the one pictured above, the design is certainly different. This is in a mossberg stamped box. Interesting to compare side by side. Here are some pics.

Nice find Patrick. Looks like a great example of a later Auto Cle set. Just curious, are your sockets marked with sizes? Does the ratchet have a serial number? I don't think your logo pic came through on your last post.

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Nice find Patrick. Looks like a great example of a later Auto Cle set. Just curious, are your sockets marked with sizes? Does the ratchet have a serial number? I don't think your logo pic came through on your last post.

Surprisingly no serial number or mark of any kind on the rachet. I’ll have to check the sockets

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

Surprisingly no serial number or mark of any kind on the rachet. I’ll have to check the sockets

The sockets are straight up mossberg stamped and marked.

 

[AntiqueBen]

The sockets are straight up mossberg stamped and marked.

Still a very nice what looks to be a complete set in original box. Any Auto-Cle find is a good find in my book. If I remember from all our discussions earlier in this thread, I think the Auto-Cle sets were made into the late teens or early 20's. Your ratchet/set is a good example of that era
Your the only person I know with 3 Auto-Cle sets

 

[AntiqueBen]

I bought a socket set today that I've never seen before. It's not Auto-Cle, but I thought it would be worth mentioning here for several reasons. Really one main reason...the ratchet. Outside of Auto-Cle & Mossberg I didn't realize there was someone else in the pressed steel socket game that had a similar ratchet design to Auto-Cle's. The set I bought was made by F.H. Ayers Manufacturing Co. They got their start in 1898 & went out of business in 1920, so they were around for a while. Although, I don't think they made these socket sets very long as they moved on to other things. Mossberg pretty much had this market wrapped up when this set came out. All the sockets are marked with their logo, the A in a circle. You can view the patent here:

US Patent: 1,072,807 - Ratchet Driving Mechanism

US patent 1,072,807 Ratchet Driving Mechanism was issued to Frederick H. Ayer of Chicago Heights, IL. It was granted on 09/09/1913. A projection on an external adjusting ring shifts a rocking ratchet dog to engage teeth cut in the internal surface of the extended shank of the tool.

www.datamp.org

The Ayers ratchet design is certainly taken from Contal's Auto-Cle ratchet design. This is a good example of not only how popular, but how revolutionary Contal's Auto-Cle sets was in moving ratchet & socket designs forward.

I'm not finding much information online about F.H. Ayers Manufacturing Co. I still have yet to find one advertisement of them advertising this set or anything they had to offer. That's what makes me think, maybe they didn't produce these sets very long. I'm anxious to get this set. When I do I'll post better pics with a more detailed description about the ratchet.

Oldtuleguy started a F.H. Ayer thread just last month. You can find it here:
Thread 'F.H. Ayer' https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/f-h-ayer.531830/

 

[AntiqueBen]

I stumbled on something today that I wasn't expecting. I took out the early Contal socket set, because I wanted to compare some other pressed steel sockets to the Contal sockets. When I opened the wooden box, my workbench light hit the ratchet in such a way that I could see letters & numbers on the body of the ratchet. After all this time of looking at this thing, I've never noticed this. It is stamped "Patented" & then a bunch of numbers & possibly something stamped under the numbers. I'm assuming it's the patent number. So I thought, I'll keep looking for more marks & I found another one. I took the plug out of the bottom & on the end of the ratchet is stamped what looks to be the letter P or R in a circle. Probably a manufacturers mark.

It will be interesting to see which patent number this one is (French, GB, or US)? Unfortunately, it's really worn & difficult to make out. I'm working on this though. Interested to know anyone's thoughts, especially those of us in the "Contal Ratchet Club." Is any of your stamped with a patent date?

 

[Patrick Eubanks]

I stumbled on something today that I wasn't expecting. I took out the early Contal socket set, because I wanted to compare some other pressed steel sockets to the Contal sockets. When I opened the wooden box, my workbench light hit the ratchet in such a way that I could see letters & numbers on the body of the ratchet. After all this time of looking at this thing, I've never noticed this. It is stamped "Patented" & then a bunch of numbers & possibly something stamped under the numbers. I'm assuming it's the patent number. So I thought, I'll keep looking for more marks & I found another one. I took the plug out of the bottom & on the end of the ratchet is stamped what looks to be the letter P or R in a circle. Probably a manufacturers mark.

It will be interesting to see which patent number this one is (French, GB, or US)? Unfortunately, it's really worn & difficult to make out. I'm working on this though. Interested to know anyone's thoughts, especially those of us in the "Contal Ratchet Club." Is any of your stamped with a patent date?

I’ll check mine today. I have never noticed the circled p

 

[AntiqueBen]

I’ll check mine today. I have never noticed the circled p

It appears that the Patented stamping on the body of my ratchet matches the badge on your Auto Cle box (pics below). After the word Patented, I can make out an "N", a couple of 2's & what looks like an "03" on the end. Looks like a match. I don't believe I've seen this Patented marking on any other Auto Cle ratchets yet. Or the "P" logo either.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Ben,

EDITED!

Sorry. Not enough coffee. This will be more concise.

If it is the same number as the number on Patrick's badge ("22391-03"), with the last 5 digits of the British patent number ("22391") and the year it was patented ("-03") (issued in '04), I think it indicates your set was probably assembled in England, as we had previously surmised. That stamping is on the tube of the same ratchet as the No. 1992 "serial number" marking that appears stamped on every other piece of your ratchet, not just the top, but the gear and the bottom of the tube. And the "PATENTED" marking (in English) on the same ratchet as the French "Bte S.G.D.G." marking surely indicates those stamps were not made at the same time. Older French ratchet put into a set possibly made and at the very least assembled as a set in England.

But that and any other theories are conjecture until we gather more examples and/or documented evidence.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Ben,

EDITED!

Sorry. Not enough coffee. This will be more concise.

If it is the same number as the number on Patrick's badge ("22391-03"), with the last 5 digits of the British patent number ("22391") and the year it was patented ("-03") (issued in '04), I think it indicates your set was probably assembled in England, as we had previously surmised. That stamping is on the tube of the same ratchet as the No. 1992 "serial number" marking that appears stamped on every other piece of your ratchet, not just the top, but the gear and the bottom of the tube. And the "PATENTED" marking (in English) on the same ratchet as the French "Bte S.G.D.G." marking surely indicates those stamps were not made at the same time. Older French ratchet put into a set possibly made and at the very least assembled as a set in England.

But that and any other theories are conjecture until we gather more examples and/or documented evidence.

Very true Lugz. I agree. I'm still shocked I hadn't noticed this sooner. I mainly wanted to post this discovery so it can be part of the research we are putting together. It may not mean much now, but it could later down the road as more Auto Cle information is gathered. Any idea on the stamped "P"? Could this stand for Paris? My guess was that the P stamp is a manufacturers stamp. Who knows at this point?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

My guess was that the P stamp is a manufacturers stamp.

Or forge mark.

I mainly wanted to post this discovery so it can be part of the research we are putting together.

It is incredibly helpful! I'll expound on that later.

 

[AntiqueBen]

Or forge mark.

It is incredibly helpful! I'll expound on that later.

Yes, I meant forge mark
Looking forward to your expounding

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Well, I hope I didn't set myself up to disappoint you. I don't have too much more to say, I just had no time to say it before.

Basically, I think it's interesting seeing how things like this reveal typical early growing pains and processes of a new and, at the time, innovative tools enterprise.

Your ratchet and set indicate that at some point after he established an import partner, some form of manufacturing and assembly, and a patent to back him up in England, Auto-Cle started stamping the British patent on surplus ratchets originally made and stamped with the French patent in France. We don't know exactly when that was in terms of time, except that it would have to be after the patent was granted in 1903. But, if we're right about the S/N's in the oval logos (and really, what else would they be?) we might could deduce that happened no later than the making of 1,992 ratchets!

Then they obviously get a little more sophisticated. Instead of re-stamping the ratchet bodies with the British patent number, it looks like they just sufficed themselves with affixing a nifty brass badge on the box, and stamping the British patent number on that, instead. As indicated by @Farmer J. 's and @Patrick Eubanks' Auto-Cle sets. What's interesting about those two are the ratchets (No. 20868 and No. 21173) only 305 unknown digits away from each!