Automating dust collection

[whateg01]

Wanting to automate the dust collector turning on in the woodshop at the makerspace. Lots of ways to tie into 120v stuff but nothing really out there for 240. So I want to add a current detector with relay to each circuit that needs dust collection then that will drive a contactor at the DC. I can stick the current detector in a box and add 240 pigtails in and out with 24v wires leading back to the main circuit. Seems sloppy though.

This is like the current detector I'm planning to use


An Arduino has been suggested but there still needs to be some sort of current detector. I don't need the programmability of the Arduino.

 

[rlitman]

A CT like that should be able to do everything. No arduino required. At the most, you'd want to add an off-delay relay and a 24VAC power supply.

It's a decent plan, if you can dedicate circuits that pass through one point to tools requiring dust collection. At work, we use Veris Hawkeye CT devices like that inductively meter motor leads to detect if a drive belt has broken. The first time I read the datasheet and realized that it is powered entirely inductively, I was floored.

Anyway, if you can get all of the tool circuits from one panel, you can pass all of them through the CT (provided your total current doesn't exceed the CT's limits), and get away with just one CT.

 

[whateg01]

No delay needed. I want turn off to be manual. Don't want the DC cycling excessively as somebody works through cutting, measuring, cutting, measuring...

I'll have the contactor set up to be latching.

I just don't know how best to package it. I guess I wasn't very clear on that. I don't like the idea of a pigtail but I'm not sure if it's ok to extend the junction box on the wall to stick the current detector in

 

[rlitman]

Whatever fits. Be aware that you can also get something like this in an split-core type CT that can be placed over the middle of wires passing through the box without any splicing.

 

[whateg01]

Whatever fits. Be aware that you can also get something like this in an split-core type CT that can be placed over the middle of wires passing through the box without any splicing.

If I stick it in the box with the receptacle, no splicing should be needed.

 

[niget2002]

I headed down a path to do something at one time and stopped about halfway through.

I set up a pi zero running MQTT with an output pin to a SSR to turn the dust collector on/off. The pi zero ran a custom written app that subscribed to the MQTT. I then setup multiple ESP32s, one for each device to monitor when it was turned on. The device turning on caused the ESP32 to send an event to MQTT. Turn the device off and an 'off' event would be sent. The pi zero then would turn the dust collector on/off based on these events.

Where I stopped on this was with trying to create servo actuated blast gates. The blast gates would also subscribe to the MQTT and open/closed based on which device was running. The main app is what calculated which gates needed to be open/closed and would send the appropriate events to MQTT. I had the electronics/communications part working, but never finished the blast gate design.

I had timings set up to allow gates to open before the DC was turned on. Once the DC was turned off, all gates would be set back to closed. The app would wait a minute after the device was turned off before turning the DC off to allow all dust to be pulled through.

Why did I stop this project? Well... all my devices are close enough and I ended up switching everything out for a single magnetic coupled dust hose. Walk over to the dust collector, grab the hose, turn on the DC, then walk over to the device I need to use and hook up the hose.

My shop isn't big enough or laid out well enough for hard plumbing to all the devices to warrant the extra effort.

 

[dave*99]

This?

iVac 4-Pc. Auto Dust Collection Pack with VAC Switch

iVac 4-Pc. Auto Dust Collection Pack With Auto Switch Get your dust collection system up and running on its own with these iVac Starter Packs. These packages include the basic items necessary to make your workshop's dust collection system fully automated and hassle free. Choose your package...

infinitytools.com

 

[whateg01]

I would like to add automatic blast gates too. I'm considering that phase 2 of the project. In my own shop I wouldn't mess with this probably but it would be a cool toy. In a makerspace, it's hard to make sure that everybody uses the dust collector when needed. Many times, I've had to go unclog the jointer because it was plugged up from somebody not turning on the dust collector or opening the blast gate.

 

[dave*99]

 

[whateg01]

This?

iVac 4-Pc. Auto Dust Collection Pack with VAC Switch

iVac 4-Pc. Auto Dust Collection Pack With Auto Switch Get your dust collection system up and running on its own with these iVac Starter Packs. These packages include the basic items necessary to make your workshop's dust collection system fully automated and hassle free. Choose your package...

infinitytools.com

Looks like it just turns the DC on when a machine is on and off when all the machines are off. No way to program it to only turn on and manually turn off? Not really clear either on whether the sensors are set up for 240. That's a requirement. I like the looks and the ability to easily integrate the gates. I need to submit my budget in the next couple weeks so maybe this is the way to go and just give up on the need to not cycle the DC on and off repeatedly

 

[dave*99]

Looks like it just turns the DC on when a machine is on and off when all the machines are off. No way to program it to only turn on and manually turn off? Not really clear either on whether the sensors are set up for 240. That's a requirement. I like the looks and the ability to easily integrate the gates. I need to submit my budget in the next couple weeks so maybe this is the way to go and just give up on the need to not cycle the DC on and off repeatedly

Watch the video. You can program an off delay. And the sensors work on 120 or 240 tools.

 

[whateg01]

I've always been told that "big motors" shouldn't be cycled on and off repeatedly. How big is a concern is that IRL?

 

[whateg01]

This?

iVac 4-Pc. Auto Dust Collection Pack with VAC Switch

iVac 4-Pc. Auto Dust Collection Pack With Auto Switch Get your dust collection system up and running on its own with these iVac Starter Packs. These packages include the basic items necessary to make your workshop's dust collection system fully automated and hassle free. Choose your package...

infinitytools.com

Do you have this setup?

 

[dave*99]

Do you have this setup?

I considered it. But went with a radio remote built in to a Baileigh DC

My old setup was an inline current sensor on the 240v line that fed most of my dusty tools. It switched a 120V line to the old homebrew DC There was a manual override too.

 

[whateg01]

My old setup was an inline current sensor on the 240v line that fed most of my dusty tools. It switched a 120V line to the old homebrew DC There was a manual override too.

That's what I'm trying to talk myself out of. But I'm also trying to talk myself out of avoiding commercial systems because of the on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on... Thing

 

[dave*99]

That's what I'm trying to talk myself out of. But I'm also trying to talk myself out of avoiding commercial systems because of the on/off/on/off/on/off/on/off/on... Thing

There is an off delay timer on my remote.

 

[whateg01]

There is an off delay timer on my remote.

Everybody talks about adding a delay but what is the right delay in a shop with multiple people doing their own thing? Even by myself, it's not uncommon to make a cut, check fit, shave a sliver off, check fit again. That can mean multiple on off cycles on the saw but if the DC is shutting off after 30 seconds and it's taking me 27 seconds to make adjustments, it's not getting that 27 seconds off.

 

[dave*99]

Everybody talks about adding a delay but what is the right delay in a shop with multiple people doing their own thing? Even by myself, it's not uncommon to make a cut, check fit, shave a sliver off, check fit again. That can mean multiple on off cycles on the saw but if the DC is shutting off after 30 seconds and it's taking me 27 seconds to make adjustments, it's not getting that 27 seconds off.

The delay should be long enough to bridge whatever you believe is a short cycle.

The common reason for a delay is to allow the pipes to clear.

 

[PCustoms]

Everybody talks about adding a delay but what is the right delay in a shop with multiple people doing their own thing? Even by myself, it's not uncommon to make a cut, check fit, shave a sliver off, check fit again. That can mean multiple on off cycles on the saw but if the DC is shutting off after 30 seconds and it's taking me 27 seconds to make adjustments, it's not getting that 27 seconds off.

In a shared shop with multiple people working, even a timer doesn't solve the issue. Says it has a 5 minute delay, but at 5:03 I walk up and hit the switch on a tool.

Just have it powered on if people are using the woodworking tools

 

[whateg01]

In a shared shop with multiple people working, even a timer doesn't solve the issue. Says it has a 5 minute delay, but at 5:03 I walk up and hit the switch on a tool.

Just have it powered on if people are using the woodworking tools

That's been my thought. But everybody keeps suggesting just use a timer. If commercially available solutions all use a timer and if I don't homebrew something, it looks like I'll be stuck with a timer. I'm not a fan of that idea.

 

[PCustoms]

That's been my thought. But everybody keeps suggesting just use a timer. If commercially available solutions all use a timer and if I don't homebrew something, it looks like I'll be stuck with a timer. I'm not a fan of that idea.

This is considered a commercial space, correct?

 

[whateg01]

This is considered a commercial space, correct?

A makerspace, a 501c3, if that makes a difference. I would say yes it's a commercial space. It's not a personal shop. That's why I ask questions about what the right way to do things. Stuff like is it ok to put the current sensor in the box with the receptacle.

 

[PCustoms]

A makerspace, a 501c3, if that makes a difference. I would say yes it's a commercial space. It's not a personal shop. That's why I ask questions about what the right way to do things. Stuff like is it ok to put the current sensor in the box with the receptacle.

I don't think you can "homebrew" one of these in a commercial space.

I mean you can, but if there was ever an issue with someone getting injured near the DC or a fire, you're device is going to catch some unwanted scrutiny.

 

[whateg01]

I don't think you can "homebrew" one of these in a commercial space.

I mean you can, but if there was ever an issue with someone getting injured near the DC or a fire, you're device is going to catch some unwanted scrutiny.

I don't know where the line lies. We built our own plasma table. But we bought a tormach. Before my time they bought a shopbot but I think it may have just been the framework because it is using a gecko540 and the wiring is atrocious. That's on my list of things to fix.

 

[nadogail]

In my personal shop I needed to replace the 240 volt power switch for a Craftsman Commercial 12” Floor Saw, I mounted a DPST switch on a Four Square box on the front of the saw, then took one of the hot legs to the motor and a Neutral to a box on the back of the Saw so that when the motor runs, the receptacle feeding the dust collector becomes energized.

The Saw was bought used about 50 years ago. Sears is just a memory.

I doubt that the saw will ever come to the attention of any regulatory agency.

 

[whateg01]

In my personal shop I needed to replace the 240 volt power switch for a Craftsman Commercial 12” Floor Saw, I mounted a DPST switch on a Four Square box on the front of the saw, then took one of the hot legs to the motor and a Neutral to a box on the back of the Saw so that when the motor runs, the receptacle feeding the dust collector becomes energized.

The Saw was bought used about 50 years ago. Sears is just a memory.

I doubt that the saw will ever come to the attention of any regulatory agency.

I don't think that's going to work on this application. First off, I can picture the sawstop computer going nuts.

 

[dave*99]

I don't think that's going to work on this application. First off, I can picture the sawstop computer going nuts.

Yeah probably right.

 

[W-Cummins]

So I have been building a dust collector system and its control system. I have been dealing with many of these problems/features. You might want to take a look at the thread. Here are a few highlights of the system.

the control cabnet

The HIM and the remote control I made

 

[niget2002]

If there are multiple people using it,then I'd say you need to turn it on and leave it on. Have an automated way to turn it off at the end of the day.

 

[mm08822]

The off delay depends on the programming from multiple inputs or even from the same point.

Call them. Ask. I doubt you are the first to raise this question or scenario.

It could very easily reset the accumulated value back to zero and the DC keeps on running until the last tool is off and it's respective off delay has elapsed.

 

[dscheidt]

I took some classes at a woodworking school. They had a big dust collector that came on (and opened blast gates) when you started a tool. Turn it off, there was a short delay (10 seconds? ) then the blast gate closed. The DC kept running for a couple minutes. If another tool got turned on while the first was in use, the system opened that gate, and the DC ran until a couple minutes after the last one turned off.
I am sure they had something that was a commercial solution, and not a home brew.

The other way I have seen similar things done is with a switch at the machine. Flipping the switch tells th DC to go, and powers a contactor for the outlet the machine is plugged into. (You need magnetic switches on the machines, so they don’t start when the switch is flipped.). The contactor for the DC has some time delay built in, so it keeps running a bit after the last tool is off.

 

[yhprum]

I think a soft start on the power tool also would be beneficial, especially if circuit breakers are tripping.

 

[W-Cummins]

The VFD in my set up allows me to to have a different blower speeds depending on the machine that starts the collector. And also change the time off feature. It's currently set up to run for one minute on high, when it receives a signal from the plasma controller (this resets as long as it is cutting). When it stops cutting, it then runs out the 1 minute timer, and starts another timer for 5 minutes, and slows down the blower to 1/4 speed before turning it off.
The sander doesn't need the full 10hp of the collector so it starts with the medium setting, and the remote runs at the selected speed and doesn't time out. Most Comercial systems don't need to do this as they often just turn on and run until the end of the day. They are also normally sized to run all the machines at the same time and don't need gates. I guess I might have to get a gate or 2 on my setup as I don't know if I have enough cfm to run it all at once.

 

[jar944]

You might want to check the specs (or call the manufacturer) to get the # of starts per hour the DC is rated for, then set the timer to never exceed that. I know of at least one shop that burned up a (single phase) motor on the DC from frequent starts/stops.

 

[W-Cummins]

Here is a chart of recommended starts per hour for nema framed motors the 2 pole motors are normally the ones used in dust collectors.



Using a VFD will help out with this as it reduces the start up load on the motor.

 

[whateg01]

Here is a chart of recommended starts per hour for nema framed motors the 2 pole motors are normally the ones used in dust collectors.



Using a VFD will help out with this as it reduces the start up load on the motor.

Thanks for posting that. This supports what I've been told about not starting and stopping the dust collector over and over again in a short period of time. I think I'm leaning hard toward a manual shutoff instead of a timer, which may mean that the commercial stuff may be out.

 

[mm08822]

Use a pull switch running down the center of the shop. Each tug on it activates/resets an off delay timer. You decide on the time.

Manually open the blast gate b4 operating the dust maker.

 

[spsullivan82]

Is turning it on and leaving it on while people are in the shop not an option? Because then it doesn't cycle, and you can you blast gate controllers to ensure whatever tool in use has flow. Then when nobody is in there just shut it off

 

[whateg01]

Manually open the blast gate b4 operating the dust maker.

Easy to say. Hard to get everybody to do.

 

[whateg01]

Is turning it on and leaving it on while people are in the shop not an option? Because then it doesn't cycle, and you can you blast gate controllers to ensure whatever tool in use has flow. Then when nobody is in there just shut it off

The problem is people who think, oh I'm just running one board through the planer. Then stuff gets plugged and "somebody" has to clear it.