Back Feeding With A Generator

[PapaD]

First off, I'm not doing it. Just wanted to set that straight before I got flamed. I recently acquired a 5,000 watt generator just in case we lose power during the great storm of 014. If I need it I'll use an extension cord for the very basics. I'll look at having a transfer switch installed in the future.

That said, a couple of people have told me that they back feed power from their generators and have done so for years. They say to just make absolutely sure the main breaker is off. Just about everything I have read says "DON'T DO IT!" I thought I would consult the experts so, what are the potential consequences?

 

[1/2 Cup]

I am not even going to enter into this debate but will be reading the responses with interest.
Cheers

 

[theoldwizard1]

Consequences are death to a lineman and jail time for manslaughter for you.

 

[aussiek2000]

Remove the main breaker so there is no path for electricity to leave the house

Disclaimer: back feeding is illegal in many (if not all) states

 

[cmanningjr]

Too dangerous


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[theoldwizard1]

Remove the main breaker so there is no path for electricity to leave the house

REMOVE ???


So how do you SAFELY re-install the main once the power is on ? Remove the meter ?

 

[aka Larry]

How is it done properly/safely? I'd like to know for future reference.

 

[Heavy Metal Doctor]

No debating, just telling what I do:
I wire semi-direct - I err on the side of caution - in the cold, to keep heat running so the house won't freeze (like last week when our county was one of the hardest hit with that ice storm and we lost power for 3 days) I shut off the main and pull out the circuit to the oil burner heater and wire it direct to a cord plugged in to the generator. The rest of stuff I just do extension cords to the fridge and some small electronics.
After last weeks event, I'm gonna spend a few bucks and get a transfer switch and a heavy main feed cord from the generator to the wall to avoid all the hassle next time.....

 

[aussiek2000]

REMOVE ???


So how do you SAFELY re-install the main once the power is on ? Remove the meter ?

Umm, don't grab the buss bars.


But you should install a transfer switch setup for generator to stay legal and safe.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

There are interlock kits available for some breaker panels. Usually easier and cheaper to install than a transfer switch. They are safe and legal.

 

[neonnblack]

REMOVE ???


So how do you SAFELY re-install the main once the power is on ? Remove the meter ?

I (maybe foolishly) have pulled and swapped live breakers before. Like he said just dont touch the bus.

 

[bd8134]

There are interlock kits available for some breaker panels. Usually easier and cheaper to install than a transfer switch. They are safe and legal.

It gets my vote..

 

[Jagmandave]

Seems like pulling the meter would be the best way (in an emergency), that way you're mechanically disconnected from the grid, and it's easy peasy to reinstall it once power's back on.....

But I agree, an either/or switch would be best and easiest to use.

 

[offroadsteve]

Whenever this topic comes up, all of the objections focus on two key points. I'm pointing out some stuff that should be obvious, but for those without a lot of electrical knowledge, its not always so obvious.

1. More often than not, the suggested hook-up is with a cord with male plugs on both ends to connect the generator to the dryer socket. This is obviously dangerous because if connected in the wrong sequence, you would have exposed male plug prongs with 120 / 240V across them.

2. As part of that same thought, "back-feeding" power into the dryer outlet energizes the entire distribution panel, and if the main breaker is not turned "OFF", you are feeding power back towards the utility lines, posing a potential risk for power company lineman working in the vicinity of the house.

Both of these hazards can be controlled with very careful procedures, and nearly all of the warnings i've ever read have some kind of "what if" warning:

What if someone comes along and unplugs the power cord, exposing the hot blades?

What if someone turns the main breaker back on?

What if you forget to turn the main breaker of?

Etc, etc.

Energizing equipment from multiple power sources is done all the time in industrial settings, but its always very very very carefully controlled by procedures and personnel who understand the hazards and are trained to follow the procedure to. the. letter. This is basically the same thing as backfeeding your house with a generator.

Bottom line is that a proper transfer switch is the right thing to do because its basically fool-proof and safe.

But if you were to ask me a hypothetical like: "Would I build a jack-leg backfeed setup (controlled with proper procedures to keep everyone safe) to keep me and my family from starving or freezing to death in a zombie apocolypse?" My answer is unequivocally: YES.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

Sounds so simple till you have a dwelling that was wired with up to six service disconnects grouped together... Don't worry, Bubba will git da gennytator up an runnin in no tyme....... Linemen did not appreciate the donated power, and cut his service... Bubba had to get the electrical inspector's ok before power was restored...

Sadly, Bubba comes from a large family..

 

[thooks]

I've done it a few times and will do it again if I have to.

I know what I'm doing, many don't. I went and bought 30' of SOW 10-4 cord and a twist lok plug to hook to the generator. From there, I ran the cord through an already-installed wall sleeve through the foundation wall, through crawl space and up a 2" spare conduit in my main panel. I threw the main breaker and turned off all the circuit breakers, opened the panel up and hooked the two hot leads into the 50 amp stove/oven breaker.

Turned the oven breaker on and started the generator. Turned the fridge on along with the furnace (fan) and some power and light circuits.

We ran it for 5 straight days during an ice storm in 2000. Nobody got kilt. I had the power company call me and tell me they were working on getting power...we were the last few people to get power restored. We had stopped staying at the house and had the generator off and un-hooked by that time...

I've got a portable generator in the garage as I type with 12 gallons of fuel. That will get us by a couple of days.

The next house I build will have a natural gas fired whole house auto transfer.

Scroo'em.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

Seems like pulling the meter would be the best way (in an emergency), that way you're mechanically disconnected from the grid, and it's easy peasy to reinstall it once power's back on.....

But I agree, an either/or switch would be best and easiest to use.

No, pulling a modern CT meter will not disconnect the power.. The power does not go through these meters; they only monitor the power flow via a clamp device similar to what we use when doing a starter amperage draw.

"Regular" meter,, ya,,, pull them and you are isolated from the power line. Power company will have to come out to replace meter seal.... Better than Freeze damage, for sure... Sure agree with the transfer switch...

 

[big.jim]

we call the two plug lead a suicide lead for a reason , if not used properly thats what you will be doing, BUT i still use one when i need to i just make sure i take the proper precautions

 

[EOC_Jason]

There are interlock kits available for some breaker panels. Usually easier and cheaper to install than a transfer switch. They are safe and legal.

+1 from me too. Basically its a little sliding piece of metal you mount in the panel. It will not allow you to turn the breaker going to your generator plug on until you throw the main breaker off (and vice-versa).

 

[Cobra4B]

What does a manual transfer switch do that turning off the main breaker doesn't do?

What does plugging the generator into this setup do that plugging it into a dryer outlet doesn't do?

I mean if you flipped the transfer switch or unplugged a hot generator lead you'd be in trouble either way. Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[James E]

See, this is why I love this forum. I would never have thought of the potential danger to a lineman from backfeeding the lines--but now that it's been brought up, it seems so obvious I can't believe I didn't consider it.

 

[malibu101]

What does a manual transfer switch do that turning off the main breaker doesn't do?

What does plugging the generator into this setup do that plugging it into a dryer outlet doesn't do?

I mean if you flipped the transfer switch or unplugged a hot generator lead you'd be in trouble either way. Maybe I'm missing something?

Your missing that a proper generator to panel connection is done with a "normal" cord meaning a male and female end, NOT a suicide cord with 2 male ends.

Plug the male end into the generator and the female end into the inlet NOT an outlet.
With an interlock the inlet can not become energized from the utility and the cord is just a "normal" cord.

 

[Hpozzuoli]

Nobody thinks of supplying Generator power to their house until they need it. That's why the suicide cord debate always comes up. It's last minute and a temp solution at best. Just be pro active and have it done right.

 

[gregtwojeeps]

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[Cobra4B]

Your missing that a proper generator to panel connection is done with a "normal" cord meaning a male and female end, NOT a suicide cord with 2 male ends.

Plug the male end into the generator and the female end into the inlet NOT an outlet.
With an interlock the inlet can not become energized from the utility and the cord is just a "normal" cord.

Thanks.... I googled some pictures and get it now. The lead off the generator is female so you can't fry yourself it it falls out. But that's what Gorilla tape and not being a ***** is for

 

[GirchyGirchy]

I hook my generator to the top lugs of the meter base. This way all my neighbors can get power that shares my transformer.

I hope you're kidding...

 

[justanengineer]

What does a manual transfer switch do that turning off the main breaker doesn't do?

What does plugging the generator into this setup do that plugging it into a dryer outlet doesn't do?

I mean if you flipped the transfer switch or unplugged a hot generator lead you'd be in trouble either way. Maybe I'm missing something?

Using a transfer switch keeps everyone in your household and those working on the lines safe. Using a plug into a dryer outlet puts everybody at risk.

Flipping the xfer switch/"unplugging" a hot generator via a xfer switch does nothing unsafe, theres no load on the generator so no current is flowing out of the generator. "Unplugging" a generator at the outlet via a cord leaves you with a hot cord with male ends, ripe for frying whatever they come into contact with. Typically, with a xfer switch wired in there is nothing to unplug, you crank the generator and many of the xfer switches automatically switch the feeds.

JMHO, but the obvious thing that the geniuses plugging into dryer outlets are missing is......that the outlets usually are not rated for it. Dryer outlets typically are 30 amp and the wiring is sized as such. Even the cheapie box-store generators are usually 40-50 amp so theres a serious risk of fire.

 

[theoldwizard1]

See, this is why I love this forum. I would never have thought of the potential danger to a lineman from backfeeding the lines--but now that it's been brought up, it seems so obvious I can't believe I didn't consider it.

And what if he happens to be on the "high side" of the transformer ?

 

[Milton Shaw]

Transfer switch is the only way to go. When the 240 from generator is backfed over the lines back to the transformer it can become the 7000 volts or so that was originally supplied to that transformer. That is what kills the lineman who is expecting a dead line since he can see it is not connected.

 

[Jagmandave]

To answer the question about why turning off the main breaker might not isolate you from the mains, sometimes breakers fail, and one set of contacts can still be bridged.

The reason I mentioned removing the meter is that I live in an older neighborhood, when you pull the meter you open the connection to the mains.

I wasn't aware they had electronic meters now that don't work the same way. Seems if you have that setup you'd want a service disconnect on the main line too....just in case you needed to shut off the power in an emergency or for doing major electrical work.

 

[ttpete]

To answer the question about why turning off the main breaker might not isolate you from the mains, sometimes breakers fail, and one set of contacts can still be bridged.

The reason I mentioned removing the meter is that I live in an older neighborhood, when you pull the meter you open the connection to the mains.

I wasn't aware they had electronic meters now that don't work the same way. Seems if you have that setup you'd want a service disconnect on the main line too....just in case you needed to shut off the power in an emergency or for doing major electrical work.

I pull the meter when I use the generator, but I use an old meter base as a plug to connect the generator to the house side. The generator is ex-military and is powered by a Jeep engine, and is connected for 240 single phase 3 wire, same as the power company. I have a 6-4 SO cord to connect from the garage to the house. The generator is conservatively rated for 10 KW.

If they install an electronic meter, I'll have to install a changeover switch and receptacle in the service line from the meter to the house.

 

[cbacres]

This goes on top, a safety statement.
From what I read here and some of the questions posted, you should not be hooking up a generator to your panel without the transfer switch. Please don't take me wrong, but this is one area that you can't say " I thought........"

However, there is the guys and girls that can do it safely. I have a background that includes procedures and policy's and its just a discipline that helps make the difference.

Another thing with a dryer is there is no neutral, just the two hots and a ground. True, the neutral can feed on the ground of the dryer circuit, but this creates a potential grounding issue, a generator feed needs four conductors to be proper. Will it work, yes, done all the time.

I have always turned the main off, hooked cord to a spare breaker as I'm on well water and the separate cords are not a option.
After going through three hurricanes in a season, my son and wife are well versed on the positions of the breakers and sequence.Also, there is no one else around that could possibly " do something stupid". We still have our fear/ respect for electrical power. We have done without power if I wasn't there to do the initial hookup and check. ( course I paid for that later)

We are in a area of acreage and the power companies will come through and check everything before they even do a repair. The generators get shut off when they show up, even if it takes a few hours for power to come back on, as they will just cut the branch feeding our pole.

The transfer is the best way no doubt, but IF you know what you are doing and understand electrical workings and safety, no reason to carpet bomb everything.

I will be installing a lockout on both my main and the generator breaker this season.

My opinion, flog away.

 

[PapaD]

I had not seen this issue raised before, but I figured it would get some pretty strong opinions. Thanks for all of them. If needed I will get by with a couple of extension cords and the fireplace. Very enlightening information by the way. No pun intended.

 

[oldgoat]

All I know is I have a friend that is a lineman and is constantly worried when out on a repair, especially during emergencies. According to him the only safe way is with a transfer switch. To me it isn't worth the risk to somebody that is risking their life to try to get power back to you. Just get the transfer switch installed and sleep safe. Afterall it will be a selling point if nothing else.

 

[weadjust]

Lead story on NBC news tonight showed a guy back feeding his generator in Atlanta. Had a power cord going from the generator in the carport into the house through the door. The news reported talked about power outages and this guy being fortunate to have the generator shown in the background.

 

[MoparTrucks]

A transfer switch is easy to install yourself, its not very expensive, and its almost foolproof so why all the debate? Around here people back feed all the time and if the power company finds it they lose their power and pay a hefty fine, if they have a fire we Fireman have to report it if we find it and insurance companies arent too keen on paying out for someone doing something illegal even if your an electrical genius and so called did it "right".

To me its like drinking and driving, even if you are an extremely careful driver and never got into an accident after a few drinks, if you get pulled over for something and blow a .08 or over your going to pay the price so why risk it?

 

[kc-steve]

To avoid the suicide cord, I found a special plug/box at Home Depot that is basically a semi-covered male plug that I have in the garage. It must be opened to connect the generator. From there I ran a line back to the main box where it is connected to breaker I leave in the off position. So when everything is connected I then switch the main breaker off and the generator breaker on.

I still would like to find some sort of voltage regulator though because I fear running microprocessors off an unregulated voltage.

Steve

 

[Jagmandave]

I'm just going to install an either/or transfer switch and add a receptacle on the outside....that way it's safe and easy to fire up the genset and get power back on.

 

[malibu101]

To avoid the suicide cord, I found a special plug/box at Home Depot that is basically a semi-covered male plug that I have in the garage. It must be opened to connect the generator. From there I ran a line back to the main box where it is connected to breaker I leave in the off position. So when everything is connected I then switch the main breaker off and the generator breaker on.

I still would like to find some sort of voltage regulator though because I fear running microprocessors off an unregulated voltage.

Steve

You are describing an inlet.
However, without an interlock somebody could turn on the "generator" breaker when you have utility power. That would energize the inlet.
If someone where to open the cover and touch the prongs, bad news.

Not saying you would but crazier things have happened.

 

[aubrey601]

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