Barn panel/house meter grounding

[HunterDan]

So today I finally ran power out to my barn, it was about 125' run. We ran 4 legs. 250-250-250-2 in 2.5" conduit, up the side of the barn into an lb, then into the back of the panel. At the house side, I have a 400 amp meter box that has 2, 200 amp breakers next to it, which I replaced my old 200 amp box with a few months ago in preparation for this. In replacing the old meter box, I I also ran a new 4 wire 4/0 ser cable into my house panel.

So I know I am going to have go in and seperate the grounds and neutrals in my house panel, and when I wire the barn, they will have to be seperate I n the barn panel as well.

My main question is, do I have to have ground rods at each panel? Or just rods at my meter box (the only place where my grounds and neutrals are connected). I was going to drive 2 8' rods 6' apart connected to my grounding bar at the barn panel, 2 rods 6' apart for my house panel grounds, then 2 rods 6' apart connected to the neutral bar in my meter box.

Is that overkill? I've researched a lot, and it seems there are opinions for both sides. Rods at each panel, or just rods at the main connection point (in this case, my meter box)

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So today I finally ran power out to my barn, it was about 125' run. We ran 4 legs. 250-250-250-2 in 2.5" conduit, up the side of the barn into an lb, then into the back of the panel. At the house side, I have a 400 amp meter box that has 2, 200 amp breakers next to it, which I replaced my old 200 amp box with a few months ago in preparation for this. In replacing the old meter box, I I also ran a new 4 wire 4/0 ser cable into my house panel.

So I know I am going to have go in and separate the grounds and neutrals in my house panel, and when I wire the barn, they will have to be separate in the barn panel as well.

My main question is, do I have to have ground rods at each panel? Or just rods at my meter box (the only place where my grounds and neutrals are connected). I was going to drive 2 8' rods 6' apart connected to my grounding bar at the barn panel, 2 rods 6' apart for my house panel grounds, then 2 rods 6' apart connected to the neutral bar in my meter box.

Is that overkill? I've researched a lot, and it seems there are opinions for both sides. Rods at each panel, or just rods at the main connection point (in this case, my meter box)

First off, the way you described the original setup, it sounds like the house panel was already a subpanel and shouldve had an isolated neutral bar along with a ground bar with branch neutrals and grounds going to respective bars.

Without pics its hard to say for sure though.



U said original setup was 200a meter box. Was this a combination meter main with the house panel being separate? If so, then what i said above should be the case.

Post some pic for us....



Second, all detached structures require grounding electrodes.

So yes, your house main service panel needs rods, as does the barn panel. You DONT need 4 rods at the house, only 2.

GEC from rods should connect to neutral bar in main service panel NOT neutral bar in meter pan...

But i cant quite picture what you have- meter main or divorced meter pan and main service panel with house subpanel so posting pics of all would be very helpful...

 

[HunterDan]

I will get some pics tommorrow.

Originally, I had a standard 200 amp meter box, the house panel w/200 amp main breaker was fed out of that.

I replaced that meter box with a new 400 amp one, that has 2 200 amp breakers outside, making that new meter box my new main service disconnect. So I have to seperate the grounds/neutrals in my house panel, since it is now considered a sub panel.

I guess my main question was, do I have to have 2 ground rods at each point? (Meter box, house panel, barn panel)

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I will get some pics tommorrow.

Originally, I had a standard 200 amp meter box, the house panel w/200 amp main breaker was fed out of that.

I replaced that meter box with a new 400 amp one, that has 2 200 amp breakers outside, making that new meter box my new main service disconnect. So I have to separate the grounds/neutrals in my house panel, since it is now considered a sub panel.

I guess my main question was, do I have to have 2 ground rods at each point? (Meter box, house panel, barn panel)

was this "meter box" just a meter pan or was there a disconnect as well?

What brand is the house panel?

You will need to add a ground bar to it.

And rods are only needed on main service panel and subpanel at detached barn....

 

[HunterDan]

Yes it was just a meter pan, cables come in from the transformer, through the meter than into the house, where my panel is.

The house panel is a square d. So I will have to add a ground bar to the house panel, and move my grounds over to that?

I will get some pics tonight when I get home from work

 

[wyliesdiesels]

awww ok. You had me confused when you said meter box. Thought u were saying there was a disconnect.

So yes u need to separate the neutrals and grounds, and add a ground bar. And it needs to be listed for the panel that u have.

U only need 2 sets of rods- one set at the barn and one set connected to the new disconnect. U dont need to connect a third set to the meter pan neutral bar...

 

[HunterDan]

I appologize for taking so long, it's been a busy week!

So I finally got around to some pictures, which I hope tell the story.

So to start, I had a regular 200 amp meter box, cables come from the transformer, into the box, through the meter, and Into the house/my panel. I built the barn, and replaced my meter box, with this new, 400 amp one with 2-200 amp breakers outside.

So this is now my "service entrance" point, correct? All the grounds/neutrals can be connected here, correct? There is one spot open on that ground bar, and I was going to run a piece of number 4 copper, from there, down to 2 ground rods 6' apart.


This is my barn panel, have my 2 hots, neutral and ground bar are seperate. Will use #6 cu from the ground bar side, down to 2 rods 6' apart

Does everything look correct?

At this point, all I have left to do, is to go into my house panel, and seperate my grounds/neutrals. In my house panel, should I leave the existing ground wire that goes to the existing rods?

 

[MrSurly]

Can you provide a pic of the house panel?
Both the meter can and the barn panel look pretty good in Terms of the current carrying conductors but the grounding/bonding needs to be addressed. Both need #4 bare connected to ground rods.
The barn panel to the egc buss on the left and in the meter can at the shared (and bonded) neutral buss as you indicated.
I'm concerned by the following: your wires pass through knock outs with no protection (chase *******/bushings) and there appears to be NO bonding of the house panel can or EGC bus to the meter can. Apparently, the house panel is tied to ground rods, but the bare from those rods needs to go instead to this neutral buss in the meter can and the house panel needs (VERY IMPORTANT) to be bonded to the same place.
I'm also concerned by "I need to separate the grounds and neutrals" in the house panel.
A city inspector would red-tag this installation, due to lack of bonding devices (lock rings, chase ******* etc and wire protection) and ground. You also need an egc pulled from the house panel out to the barn, in the same cable or conduit (raceway)
I'm NOT TRYING to be "that guy" but it needs to be stated.
Forgetting the inspector and code book (sections 250 and 300 are a starting point if you want to see the nuts and bolts of it) for a moment, the FIRST thing is safety. You need to move the bare from the house panel to the meter can (first means of disconnect) so that the power company's neutral is both bonded to the meter can AND connected *directly* to the two existing ground rods and also use the bare to connect the house panel egc bus to the same place in the meter can.

Other wise you will have a dangerous situation if the can of the house panel is not bonded.

Edit: you appear to have a dangerous situation at this moment due the fact that the power company's neutral drop is not actually grounded *at all* at your service entrance. You are relying solely on the ground connection at the base of some utility pole (who knows how far away or in what condition) and that is not acceptable.

**actually, I can't believe that your power company plugged the meter in on this can.

 

[HunterDan]

So to correct your last statement about the poco neutral not being grounded, I need to add the # 4 on the neutral bar, down to the ground rods correct?


Also, you state "I need an egc pulled from the house panel out to the barn, in the same cable or conduit (raceway)", isn't that why I run 4 wire out to the barn? 2 hots, a neutral and a ground?


I appriciate your input!

 

[MrSurly]

So to correct your last statement about the poco neutral not being grounded, I need to add the # 4 on the neutral bar, down to the ground rods correct?

yes, bare #4 from the existing rods directly to the bonded neutral connection above the 200A breaker.

Also, you state "I need an egc pulled from the house panel out to the barn, in the same cable or conduit (raceway)", isn't that why I run 4 wire out to the barn? 2 hots, a neutral and a ground?

You are 100% right, I overlooked that. I had to correct a ton of my typical typos and didn't look closely enough at the barn panel

 

[MrSurly]

Looking closer it appears that your feed to the house panel is SER cable with a bare aluminum ground. This bare ground is connected properly on the shared bus in the meter can and should be connected to the egc bus in the house can and that will provide the bonding of the house panel to this can once the ground rod wire is moved here.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wow lots of misinformation here....

So this is now my "service entrance" point, correct? All the grounds/neutrals can be connected here, correct? There is one spot open on that ground bar, and I was going to run a piece of number 4 copper, from there, down to 2 ground rods 6' apart.

yes. this is now your main disconnect.

Largest wire needed to rods is #6 not #4....

This is my barn panel, have my 2 hots, neutral and ground bar are separate. Will use #6 cu from the ground bar side, down to 2 rods 6' apart

Does everything look correct?

U need an insulating bushing on the bottom of the can where the cables enter the panel.

At this point, all I have left to do, is to go into my house panel, and separate my grounds/neutrals. In my house panel, should I leave the existing ground wire that goes to the existing rods?

NO

your house panel is now a subpanel and rods should not be connected to the neutral bar....

Can you provide a pic of the house panel?
Both the meter can and the barn panel look pretty good in Terms of the current carrying conductors but the grounding/bonding needs to be addressed. Both need #4 bare connected to ground rods.

Largest wire required to rods is #6 NOT #4...

I'm concerned by the following: there appears to be NO bonding of the house panel can or EGC bus to the meter can.

Look closer.

That is a combination meter main service panel. The meter section and breaker section are one panel.

So no bonding needed....

And the inside house subpanel is bonded via the bare al ground wire....

Apparently, the house panel is tied to ground rods, but the bare from those rods needs to go instead to this neutral buss in the meter can and the house panel needs (VERY IMPORTANT) to be bonded to the same place.

The house panel is being fed by 4-wire SER so its bonded via the bare aluminum ground wire...

I'm also concerned by "I need to separate the grounds and neutrals" in the house panel.

He is correct in needing to separate the neutrals and grounds in his house panel as its now a subpanel.

Neutrals and grounds should only be bonded at the first means of disconnect. After that, neutral bars need to be isolated...

And he will need to add an EGC...

You also need an egc pulled from the house panel out to the barn, in the same cable or conduit (raceway).

That is incorrect. The the house and barn panels dont need a direct EGC between them.

Where did u come up with that? What purpose do u think that would serve?

I'm NOT TRYING to be "that guy" but it needs to be stated.
Forgetting the inspector and code book (sections 250 and 300 are a starting point if you want to see the nuts and bolts of it) for a moment, the FIRST thing is safety. You need to move the bare from the house panel to the meter can (first means of disconnect) so that the power company's neutral is both bonded to the meter can AND connected *directly* to the two existing ground rods and also use the bare to connect the house panel egc bus to the same place in the meter can.

A meter can is NOT the first means of disconnect. However, in the OPs case, he has a combination meter main with the meter on the left and the main disconnects on the right.

The OP should connect the rods to the neutral bar that is in the top left of the disconnect section. This is factory bonded to the panel.

Look closer next time.

Other wise you will have a dangerous situation if the can of the house panel is not bonded.

Again the house panel(not seen) IS bonded via the bare ground from the SER...

Edit: you appear to have a dangerous situation at this moment due the fact that the power company's neutral drop is not actually grounded *at all* at your service entrance. You are relying solely on the ground connection at the base of some utility pole (who knows how far away or in what condition) and that is not acceptable.

**actually, I can't believe that your power company plugged the meter in on this can.

Yes, he is missing the GEC to the rods and it is surprising that it is missing.

However, I disagree that it is dangerous. This is because rods are for grounding lightning and have no function under normal operation....

So to correct your last statement about the poco neutral not being grounded, I need to add the # 4 on the neutral bar, down to the ground rods correct?

U need to use a bare solid #6 that goes from the upper left neutral bar to the 2 rods....

Also, you state "I need an egc pulled from the house panel out to the barn, in the same cable or conduit (raceway)", isn't that why I run 4 wire out to the barn? 2 hots, a neutral and a ground?

U dont need an EGC direct from inside house panel to barn panel. Im not sure where he came up with that but its incorrect. Your 4-wire feeders from the disconnect panel to the subpanels is correct.

Make sure the barn panel has 2 rods as well.

yes, bare #4 from the existing rods directly to the bonded neutral connection above the 200A breaker.

Max size required to rods is #6 NOT #4....

Looking closer it appears that your feed to the house panel is SER cable with a bare aluminum ground. This bare ground is connected properly on the shared bus in the meter can and should be connected to the egc bus in the house can and that will provide the bonding of the house panel to this can once the ground rod wire is moved here.

Ground rods have nothing to do with bonding panels with EGCs....grounding electrodes are for grounding lightning NOT bonding....

 

[MrSurly]

Wow lots of misinformation here....

There is for certain, now. Although it's super late I typed a looooong reply and then it disappeared when I tried to post it.
Some of your corrections are debatable such as the GEC size (250-66 and MANY AHJs and pocos) Repeating your local requirement in no way makes yours a blanket application. My reference to the 'meter can' was clearly being used collectively of the combo panel and you are being disingenuous for picking that particular nit.

yes. this is now your main disconnect.

Largest wire needed to rods is #6 not #4....
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U need an insulating bushing on the bottom of the can where the cables enter the panel.
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NO

your house panel is now a subpanel and rods should not be connected to the neutral bar....



Largest wire required to rods is #6 NOT #4...
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Look closer.
Always good advice!
That is a combination meter main service panel. The meter section and breaker section are one panel.

So no bonding needed....
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The house panel is being fed by 4-wire SER so its bonded via the bare aluminum ground wire...



He is correct in needing to separate the neutrals and grounds in his house panel as its now a subpanel.

Neutrals and grounds should only be bonded at the first means of disconnect. After that, neutral bars need to be isolated...

And he will need to add an EGC...



That is incorrect. The the house and barn panels dont need a direct EGC between them.

Where did u come up with that? Have you read an NEC? I mean SINCE 2005? The four-wire with EGC has been code since *2008(!)*. If this were a previously installed three wire it could be retained and the neutral and ground WOULD be bonded there! 250.32 I think that one is. What purpose do u think that would serve? if you reference that book I mentioned (NEC) you would find that it serves to provide a rapid path back to the over current device that is designed to trip in response. Relying on *soil* to provide this path to the interrupt device has long proven inadequate and dangerous. NEC2008 (there's that thing again) 'outlawed' the practice. It's not different from the reason that grounded receptacles were implemented decades ago. Before proclaiming that others are spreading misinformation , perhaps you would be well served to trouble yourself to be correct. I'm fully aware that I'm new to this board, having lurked learned and enjoyed it. But I'm not here to pick any fights and will only try to help. Accusing me of being wrong is fine, but at least be right and ready to back it up. I love debate. I'm not keen on accusations.


A meter can is NOT the first means of disconnect. However, in the OPs case, he has a combination meter main with the meter on the left and the main disconnects on the right.
again, I think you're being a bit trite with this differentiation.
The OP should connect the rods to the neutral bar that is in the top left of the disconnect section. This is factory bonded to the panel.

Look closer next time.
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Again the house panel(not seen) IS bonded via the bare ground from the SER...
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Yes, he is missing the GEC to the rods and it is surprising that it is missing.

However, I disagree that it is dangerous. This is because rods are for grounding lightning and have no function under normal operation....
not entirely, also serves to stabilize the xformer's secondary voltage and reduce spikes caused by other events


U need to use a bare solid #6 that goes from the upper left neutral bar to the 2 rods....

the real answer is what his local AHJ and poco require...but ridiculously, it appears they don't require.....anything! But MANY require #4

U dont need an EGC direct from inside house panel to barn panel. Im not sure where he came up with that but its incorrect.
Again, on this you are flat wrong. I hope you'll recognize it and correct your clearly outdated position. The source is still NEC 2008; 2011; 2014. Your 4-wire feeders from the disconnect panel to the subpanels is correct.

Make sure the barn panel has 2 rods as well.



Max size required to rods is #6 NOT #4....



Ground rods have nothing to do with bonding panels with EGCs....grounding electrodes are for grounding lightning NOT bonding....

Again, I'm not trying to tick anyone off or create a contest. I'm actually trying to be helpful!

Added a picture to hopefully explain 250.32

 

[Norcal]

A conductor to ground rods is not required to be larger then #6 no matter how large the service is.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Some of your corrections are debatable such as the GEC size (250-66 and MANY AHJs and pocos) Repeating your local requirement in no way makes yours a blanket application.

Nothing to debate here. What i posted is NEC code.

None of what I said was local requirements. Here we discuss the NEC requirements. There is no point in discussing local amendments as everyone is in different locations.

What i said about #6 to rods being max size required is NEC. read 250.66(a)

My reference to the 'meter can' was clearly being used collectively of the combo panel and you are being disingenuous for picking that particular nit.

It may have been clear to you but it wasnt to the OP.

The problem with that is the OP is gonna think that he needs to connect everything on the meter side of the combo panel. It helps to be specific here for people who dont know all the specifics...

Have you read an NEC? I mean SINCE 2005? The four-wire with EGC has been code since *2008(!)*. If this were a previously installed three wire it could be retained and the neutral and ground WOULD be bonded there! 250.32 I think that one is.

Yes i have. Have my 2011 sitting right in front of me. I do this for a living BTW...

I know all about 4-wire feeders and EGCs.

If u have read many of the posts on here u will know that.

However, the issue here is that u told the OP he needs to run an EGC from the house (sub) panel to the barn. Perhaps you meant from the combo service panel. But thats not what you wrote. And the OP interpreted what you wrote the same way i did.

It seems that you didnt read my response close enough nor did u realize what your original comment said. Maybe try reading slower next time.

I copied the quote below:

You also need an egc pulled from the house panel out to the barn, in the same cable or conduit (raceway).

As i said, the house (sub)panel does NOT need an EGC to go from it direct to the barn.

Perhaps by house panel u meant main service panel? Did u realize that he also has a panel INSIDE the house that he is calling the house (sub)panel?

I stand by my previous comments.

And BTW, the Op has 4-wire feeders to both house subpanel and barn...

Please tell me the code that says u need an EGC ging direct between subpanels....

if you reference that book I mentioned (NEC) you would find that it serves to provide a rapid path back to the over current device that is designed to trip in response. Relying on *soil* to provide this path to the interrupt device has long proven inadequate and dangerous. NEC2008 (there's that thing again) 'outlawed' the practice. It's not different from the reason that grounded receptacles were implemented decades ago. Before proclaiming that others are spreading misinformation , perhaps you would be well served to trouble yourself to be correct. I'm fully aware that I'm new to this board, having lurked learned and enjoyed it. But I'm not here to pick any fights and will only try to help. Accusing me of being wrong is fine, but at least be right and ready to back it up. I love debate. I'm not keen on accusations.

I never said to rely on rods for the fault current pathway. Again, u need to go back and read what you wrote and what i wrote.

yes 4-wire feeders have been required since 2008. I never said differently.

U were the one who said OP needs an EGC (implying directly) between his house subpanel and barn. This is incorrect.

I think what has happened here is you werent very specific and it confused the OP and myself.

And the Op already has 4-wire feeders so your comments only further confused things....

again, I think you're being a bit trite with this differentiation.

Not trite at all.

That combination can has 2 sections. you have OP thinking that his GEC and EGCs need to connect on the meter side of the can....

Again, helps to be specific....

not entirely, also serves to stabilize the xformer's secondary voltage and reduce spikes caused by other events.

yes this is another function of rods. The rod at the pole should be the primary for utility fault issues...

the real answer is what his local AHJ and poco require...but ridiculously, it appears they don't require.....anything! But MANY require #4

we dont discuss local amendments here. #6 is max required by NEC...

Again, I'm not trying to tick anyone off or create a contest. I'm actually trying to be helpful!

Added a picture to hopefully explain 250.32

Ive posted that pic many times.

Just do a search for all the threads ive commented on and you will see so.

I think the main take away here is that it helps to be a little more specific.

Yes u were mostly helpful.

Some of your incorrect descriptions only confused the conversation.

 

[HunterDan]

Thank you both for the help!

I do have another question, the panel I bought for the barn, has a 200 amp breaker, and the meter/breaker combo at the house also has a 200 amp breaker. Am I safe to leave the 200 amp breaker in the barn panel? Or should I remove it and see if I can replace it with just lugs?

 

[dw1]

Thank you both for the help!

I do have another question, the panel I bought for the barn, has a 200 amp breaker, and the meter/breaker combo at the house also has a 200 amp breaker. Am I safe to leave the 200 amp breaker in the barn panel? Or should I remove it and see if I can replace it with just lugs?

Leave it in place, your detached barn needs a disconnecting means.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The rule is, if you will have more than 6 breaker handles to throw, then u need a main disconnect.

 

[HunterDan]

Sounds good thanks!

I got the ground rods in for the meter pan/main breaker combo today. I did 3 8' rods, about 7'-8' apart (tons of rock here, took a few try's before I could get them all the way in) and ran bare #4 copper from that open spot on the neutral bus bar in the main breaker side of my combo panel (on the top in the picture above) ran the copper from that bar, down to the first rod, Connected and ran straight through to the other 2 rods.

Going to probably do the same (3 rods) for the barn panel as well this weekend.

Another question, I've searched a lot and haven't found a solid Anwser. Should I bond my metal siding to the ground bar in the panel?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sounds good thanks!

I got the ground rods in for the meter pan/main breaker combo today. I did 3 8' rods, about 7'-8' apart (tons of rock here, took a few try's before I could get them all the way in) and ran bare #4 copper from that open spot on the neutral bus bar in the main breaker side of my combo panel (on the top in the picture above) ran the copper from that bar, down to the first rod, Connected and ran straight through to the other 2 rods.

Going to probably do the same (3 rods) for the barn panel as well this weekend.

Another question, I've searched a lot and haven't found a solid Answer. Should I bond my metal siding to the ground bar in the panel?

Well u wasted some money.

U only need 2 rods and the GEC only needed to be #6...

As for the siding, is the panel in direct contact with the siding??

 

[MrSurly]

Just got a chance to post back in here, have been way too busy, lately.
I'm posting here to simply say, I was wrong, I concede all your points, carry on.

I just wanna get on here to talk about my own garage build (if it ever gets built!)