Best florescent fixtures ?

[Mmfh]

Hey guys,

I'm noticing now that its getting colder again, my lights like to flicker and some of the really cheap ones don't even want to start.

Many years ago I had bought some high quality fixtures and bulbs but don't remember what they were. I'm fairly sure they had the heavy ballast in them, but don't know what to look for to try to find good ones again.

What is T-12, T-8, electronic ballast, magnetic ballast? Can someone please just tell me what is the best bang for the buck, good light output, long life, works in cold temps.

I've bought several of the super cheap ones at the Depot over the years and they are just junk. I'm ready for the real thing!

Thanks very much,

Mm

 

[climbabout]

Hey guys,

I'm noticing now that its getting colder again, my lights like to flicker and some of the really cheap ones don't even want to start.

Many years ago I had bought some high quality fixtures and bulbs but don't remember what they were. I'm fairly sure they had the heavy ballast in them, but don't know what to look for to try to find good ones again.

What is T-12, T-8, electronic ballast, magnetic ballast? Can someone please just tell me what is the best bang for the buck, good light output, long life, works in cold temps.

I've bought several of the super cheap ones at the Depot over the years and they are just junk. I'm ready for the real thing!

Thanks very much,

Mm

Many of the lights you get at the big box stores that are cheap don't even have a real ballast in them - just a chip of some sort - they aren't made for regular use as you have found out - they will fail quickly.
To answer your other questions -
T-8 and T-12 - this stands for the size of the bulb, "T" stands for Tubular and the number after the "T" stands for how many 8th's of an inch in diameter it is. T-12 = 12/8ths or 1-1/2" in diameter and so on.
Older ballasts(transformers) were all magnetic - meaning they had windings in them like an electro magnet - so they were heavy, but they tended to last longer, but they use more electricity than the electronics. Electronic ballasts are made with circuit boards, are lighter and more energy efficient, but they don't last as long due to the delicate nature of electronics. However, the electronics perform well in the cold. Almost all new fixtures today are required to be made with electronic ballasts. The best for cold weather and better light output would be what's called a "high output" fixture. It's unlikely you'll find these at a home center - better to try a real electrical supply house as they sell these routinely.
Then there are also the new T5 high output fixtures - again these can be ordered through a supply house.
Tim

p.s. - the numbering logic above also applies to other bulbs as well
i.e R30=reflector bulb 30/8" in diameter - PAR38= parabolic bulb 38/8" in diameter - MR16=multi reflector 16/8" in diameter A19 bulb="A" lamp 19/8" in diameter etc...
probably more than you wanted to know....

 

[Mmfh]

Thank you for that info! No, its not more than I wanted to know. I like to know all I can know about whatever it is I'm messing with at the time.

I remember the fixtures I bought years ago would last for many,many years and still going strong.

I'll call one of the electrical suppliers and see what they have and if I can afford what they say is the good stuff.

Great info on the light sizes and configurations. Thanks!

Mm

 

[climbabout]

I have worked for my family's electrical supply business since the 70's and the old magnetic ballasts would routinely last 10-20 years or more. Yes, they used more power and yes, they leaked when they were failing, but they were durable. We retrofitted our warehouse and offices to electronic T8 and T5 technology a few years ago and ballast replacement is a never ending chore. I could have chosen any fixture(s) I wanted for work lights in my garage and I stuck with good old T12 8' high output strips. I use the 8'HO lamps that are designated "cold temp" as opposed to the "supersaver" or "econowatt" models that are mandated by the federal energy act. The "cold temp" models are exempt from the law and still are rated at 110watts each vs. 95w. which gives you about a 10% bump in light output and better cold weather light output as well.
Tim

 

[mtne]

Thanks climbabout! I've been at this a little while but don't have the task of ordering that often and it's good to find out about the how and why things are numbered.

 

[Falcon67]

I buy the Metal-lux or Lithonia fixtures from HD or Lowes. I only use T-8 electronic ballasts and never have any cold weather issues. If you buy enough lights, you'll get some ballasts that die. I hard wire my lights in a shop, so when that happens I just replace the ballast. Yes, for a 4' fixture is' usually double + the fixture cost but it's more hassle to re-install the whole fixture. I've had better a than 90% success rate with cheap fixtures, so good 'nuff for me. They use "high quality" (read: commercial cost) fixtures at work and I don't see much better success rate with the new stuff. They just replaced a whole floor here this last summer with new T8 electronic ballast troffers. What came out was a billion 8' single bulb mag ballast fixtures. One of those old fixtures would fry out about every month and maintenance quit fixing them about 3 months before the change out. We have plenty of light now, no more loud humming on cold mornings and instant on. If you think that's not important in an office building, try working in one built in 1947 running on a two pipe chiller system.

 

[Mmfh]

Hey Tim,

I think those old T12 high output ones are the ones I used to have and really liked. I know the building I had over 10 years ago has someone I know in there and many of the bulbs I installed have never been changed. Of coarse they have not changed any of the ballasts.

Do you have to go to a electrical supply house to find these? If I'm looking used on Craigslist how can I identify these from the others?

Thanks very much!

Mm

 

[Cheap5.0]

If you want to get creative and are handy with basic electrical skills (soldering) you could go the hi output LED route with a reflector mounted on them.

Pricey? Yes.

But they are VERY durable, they dont care about temp at all, they have amazing light output with the right reflector, and they run off from a cheap computer power supply ($35 online). They say (and so far have been proven true) you have about 10 years of 12 hours a day, 365 a year light in them.

If you want some terms to google, checkout the CREE 3 watt or 5 watt LEDS and the associated hardware. The upfront costs are higher, but the longterm energy savings are immense and its a fun project.

If you want to do some reading, CREE has this article on there site:

http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLampApp_Outdoor.pdf

 

[Charles (in GA)]

All three bulb sizes, T12, T8, and T5 are made in both HO and standard output. T12, whether HO or not, is at this point in time, a waste to install. Installing a T8 or T5 system will give you more light for current consumed.

Understand that T5 is available both ways and while everyone thinks of T5 as being HO, the HO bulbs are 54 watt (4 ft bulb) and standard (non-HO) are 28 watt (4 ft). You have to get the correct fixtures, and the correct bulbs to get what you want.

Home Depot sells both HO and non-HO in all three sizes of bulbs, in various style fixtures.

THIS recent thread resulted in my removing the old non-HO 8ft T12 lights over my workbenches and replacing them with 8 ft (4ft bulbs in tandem) T5HO fixtures. I am quite happy with them, glad I made the switch.

Charles

 

[climbabout]

Hey Tim,

I think those old T12 high output ones are the ones I used to have and really liked. I know the building I had over 10 years ago has someone I know in there and many of the bulbs I installed have never been changed. Of coarse they have not changed any of the ballasts.

Do you have to go to a electrical supply house to find these? If I'm looking used on Craigslist how can I identify these from the others?

Thanks very much!

Mm

The T12 HO fixtures I put in are new fixtures - so they have electronic ballasts in them. When I said "good old" I was referring to the fact that these lamps have been around for decades. You won't find any new fixtures with magnetic ballasts unless you find someone with some old stock - which is likely to be a fruitless search. HO fixtures should have the phrase "800MA" (800 milliamps) or "High Output" in the description. The "cold temp" lamps should have a number like F96T12/CW/HO/COLD TEMP (that's the Sylvania number). I'm fairly certain GE and Philips have an equivalent. In reality this is the old non energy saving high output lamp that was widely used years ago.

As a rough comparison:
2-2 lamp 4' t8 strips with 32watt lamps intitially gives out about 11,200 lumens (4 lamps x 2800 lumens)
1-2 lamp 8' HO strip with the standard energy saving HO lamps delivers about 16,000 lumens initially
The same fixture with the Cold Temp lamps would be 17,200 lumens initially.

It's unlikely you'll find these fixtures anywhere but a supply house or a place like WW Grainger. At least that's the case in my area.

As the post above points out as well - there are T5 systems as well that will be more energy efficient.
Tim

 

[climbabout]

Just as a clarification - regarding what's "best" - thats relative to how you are using your lighting.
If I were suggesting a lighting system for a facility, factory, school, store etc... where the lights are used 10 or 12 or even 18 hours a day, then the old T12 HO that I mentioned above would not be suitable of economical - it would be a ridiculous choice. T5 or even LED(although the payback on current LED is still a bit long) would be the way to go among others.

But for the homeowner or occasional user, it's a different set of economics if you are only burning them a few hours a week. You need to balance the initial cost with the amount of time you are burning them. For me - I wanted the most light for a reasonable cost. Energy consumption does not enter into the equation in my case as my lights in my garage are only used a few hours a week. Every situation is different - there is no one best fits all solution.
Tim

 

[Falcon67]

FWIW - in the old shop, I switched 12 T12 4' fixtures with 6500K lamps out with 12 T8 4' fixtures with 6500K lamps. The result was a good 30% drop in current draw. It makes a difference, even at home. The fixtures were $18 each and the bulbs run $2.50 each when bought in bulk cartons. Plus I got bight light in a cold shop before firing up the heater, as opposed to heat the place first with the mag ballast T12s.

In the new 960 sq/ft shop, damn straight it'll make a difference how much power is used. We're all electric at .115/kWh, so every watt saved is money.

 

[mikewoods]

Great thread! Thanks for all the useful info!

 

[Mmfh]

You guys have given me a lot of info here, I still haven't made up my mind on the best way to go. I will say that as far as how much usage these will see, at first not that much, but after not too long it will be full time for a machine shop.

I will probably have the lights going 8 to 10 hours a day, I'm sure at times it most likely will be more than that. When I think florescent I don't really think of the economics of it, considering they are so much better than the incandescent of what I used years ago. When the florescent came out they were so much better I guess I still think that way.

How much cheaper would it be to run T-8's over the T-12's? Electronic ballast over the magnetic? Is it really substantial?

So far it seems like the T-8 is the way to go, but every time I read another post I kinda change my mind. Of coarse I'm not made of money so the initial investment is definitively something to be considered, but I don't want those plastic cheapie's for $10 at the home stores either.

I was sold on the T-12's HO, now maybe the T-8 HO. Why can't they just make one kind like they did thirty years ago and be done with it

Anyway, I love hearing what you guys are using and what you learned after you got what you did and maybe regretted it.

Thanks very much!

Mm

 

[Mmfh]

All the T-8's I'm seeing are only 32 watt. In a shop I want all the light I can get. What is a good brand name? I know the Lithonia brand but that's about it. Oh by the way, I'm looking at getting 10 4' if I go for that size. Half that if I should use the 8'.

What do you think?

Thank you!

 

[Falcon67]

I use 6500K 32W bulbs - lots of bright light, with a blue-ish tint.

 

[MichMan517]

I just put up 16 32 watt 4' bulbs, 4900K. Garage is 24x24x10 and they light it real good, no tint noticed with this old eyes. Ceiling and walls are white, which helps a lot.

 

[Mmfh]

I don't see where you guys are getting the "K" Numbers. I think that is a color number but I don't see it on anything that I have. The 6500 or 4900?? Where do you find those numbers?

I bought at Costco 1 4' T8 two bulb strip, high output 32w. All that comes right off the box. Hung it up and compared to my old 4' 32w T12 two bulb fixture.

I thought I was going to see that the T8 was much brighter, surprising enough it appeared as the old T12 gave off a lot more light, lot more. Its a cool white, heavy unit, probably the heavy ballast inside.

So now I'm confused, the T8 high output isn't near as bright as the cool white T12??

I'm going to go over all these post again and see where I got off track. For some reason this just isn't clicking with me.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

I don't see where you guys are getting the "K" Numbers. I think that is a color number but I don't see it on anything that I have. The 6500 or 4900?? Where do you find those numbers?

I bought at Costco 1 4' T8 two bulb strip, high output 32w. All that comes right off the box. Hung it up and compared to my old 4' 32w T12 two bulb fixture.

I thought I was going to see that the T8 was much brighter, surprising enough it appeared as the old T12 gave off a lot more light, lot more. Its a cool white, heavy unit, probably the heavy ballast inside.

So now I'm confused, the T8 high output isn't near as bright as the cool white T12??

I'm going to go over all these post again and see where I got off track. For some reason this just isn't clicking with me.

The K is the bulb color temperature in kelvin. You can get that info from the MFG, usually it's not on the bulb. What you have is not "high output". Standard 32 watt T8s should be roughly the same brightness as standard 40 watt T12s. If they are a different color temperature it can be hard to compare.

 

[climbabout]

The color temperature is usually at least partially indicated in the catalog number of the lamp - at least that is so with the major manufacturers. For example a Sylvania FO32/741/ECO is decoded as follows F=fluorescent O=octron which is their T8 series 741=700 series(lowest lumen series), 41=4100 degrees Kelvin (approximately equivalent to the old cool white) and ECO=ecologic(energy saving). They also have 800 and 900 series lamps which give out higher lumens per watt consumed. GE and Philips have similar numbering conventions. As far as color temperature, the lower the number, the warmer the color. 3000K approximates the warmth of an incandescent lamp, 6500K is similar to the old bluish daylight color.

Mm - if you are going to be burning your lights 8-10 hours per day, money spent on a modern T5 HO or similar system will definitely pay off in lower electric bills - there are many modern fixtures also with mirrored reflectors that will multiply the light as well that you might consider. Google Sylvania Lamps - they have a good website full of info - look at the lumen output and wattage when comparing lamps - here's a link:
http://ecom.mysylvania.com/sylvaniab2b/b2b/catalogstart.do?search=catalog

Hope this helps,
Tim

 

[raley]

I was reading the other night on some random site that t8s are better below 15 foot ceilings and t12s should be used above that. I have no idea why since they both should in theory output about the same amount of light... but just some food for thought.

michman, you mean 16 bulbs or 16 fixtures? What kinda of layout did you do? Im about to light up my garage so Im also looking.

 

[CaptainRay]

This is an very informative video on shop lighting and it covers LED's the new T8 lights with the electronic ballist and the old one with the mangentic ballist.

and the T8 fluorescent.

I'm an LED light nut, I have make signs out of the LEDs. I have to say I agree with the guy on the Youtube video about LED's for shop lighting, they aren't there yet but probably will be one day. Check the video out and see what you think. Hope that helps clear up some it up.

 

[StaggeringGoat]

Mm - if you are going to be burning your lights 8-10 hours per day, money spent on a modern T5 HO or similar system will definitely pay off in lower electric bills

T5HO have about the same lumens/watt as regular T8. Regular T5s are 28 watts vs 32 for T8 for about the same lumens. 4 watts savings is not worth the major extra cost unless you have hundreds of fixtures.

 

[djjsr]

I've read a lot about T-12 lights being phased out and one of these days you may not be able to get them anymore. Unless you stock up on a lot of bulbs, there's no sense in buying T-12 fixtures.

I have about 40 fixtures that are 8' T-12s with 2 bulbs each and I'm replacing them a little at a time. My concern is not the cost of a new fixture but the cost of bulbs and the energy used.

Originally I had planned to keep the same fixtures and just replace the old magnetic ballasts with new electronic ballast for 8' T-8 bulbs. What I quickly discovered was that I was having trouble finding ballasts for two 8' T-8 bulbs. They're available but not in stock at many places. Also, the cost of an 8' bulb is almost double the cost of two 4' bulbs.

All things considered, I decided to use new 8' fixtures that use four 4' bulbs. The bulbs are cheap and the ballasts are available at most stores.

 

[climbabout]

T5HO have about the same lumens/watt as regular T8. Regular T5s are 28 watts vs 32 for T8 for about the same lumens. 4 watts savings is not worth the major extra cost unless you have hundreds of fixtures.

StaggeringGoat is correct - I should have been more precise in my statement - when I said T5HO or similar system, I meant to include T8 as well - in other words, the modern systems, post T12. If you compare lumens per watt (of course this doesn't take into account the ballast load) the standard 4 foot T5 28w penetron lamp initially delivers 2600 lumens for a lumens per watt output of 93. The 4 foot T5HO 54w delivers 4450 lumens for a LPW of 82. As a comparison the standard 4 foot T8 32w lamp delivers 2800 lumens for a LPW of 87.5. Just to show what the T8 technology is capable of - Sylvania has the 800 series XPS 4 foot T8 32w lamp that delivers 3100 lumens for an LPW of 97. Granted, these bulbs are not sold through the home centers generally, but is shows that a better lamp in the commonly available less expensive fixtures can deliver a nice upgrade in light output.
Tim

 

[GarageWrench]

I just installed three of the cheaper 8 ft. lithonia fixtures from the home depot the other day in my 610 sq ft garage and am very happy with the light output. I used the 32 watt philips cool white bulbs, which are rated at 4100 lumens. Im in Tigard if you want to come take a look.

 

[Mmfh]

I just installed three of the cheaper 8 ft. lithonia fixtures from the home depot the other day in my 610 sq ft garage and am very happy with the light output. I used the 32 watt philips cool white bulbs, which are rated at 4100 lumens. Im in Tigard if you want to come take a look.

I was thinking of sticking some 8' fixtures in there but I think with the arrangement I'm going with the 4' are going to work better. Your garage is just a little larger than what I'm wanting to light up and I also have several large machines to light around. Milling machine, lathe, other large things people would probably not know what they are.

Costco not long ago had some T-8 fixtures, 32 w, it says high output, has the simulated look of stainless.

Not bad considering they have the high output tubes with it for $15. I bought 1 a while back and have been playing around with arrangements and how well it works. I think I'm going to try to find about 10 or 11 more at that price and really light this place up.

I appreciate the offer to check out your setup, I might end up taking you up on that if this doesn't work out. I used to have a big shop where Tiedelman and North Dakota come together there at Greenburg rd. You are only about 20 minutes from me now.

So, this seems like the best bang for the buck for now. I want to Thank everyone for their help and great links for learning about this. I now know much more about fluorescent lighting than I used too!

Thank you!

Mm

 

[climbabout]

Mm - I see in your avatar a Chevelle SS - you still have it? Are you an engine builder(from your signature)?
Tim

 

[planecrazy29]

I've read a lot about T-12 lights being phased out and one of these days you may not be able to get them anymore. Unless you stock up on a lot of bulbs, there's no sense in buying T-12 fixtures.
<snip>

I just inquired about this when I saw a little button advertisement at the local Graybar electrical supplier. According to the counter guy, T-12's are done as of 7-14-2012. He also said that there was grant money to replace old fixtures that is now gone and also that by that time there will be no ballasts or bulbs left as everyone will buy them up. As always, YMMV.

 

[climbabout]

I just inquired about this when I saw a little button advertisement at the local Graybar electrical supplier. According to the counter guy, T-12's are done as of 7-14-2012. He also said that there was grant money to replace old fixtures that is now gone and also that by that time there will be no ballasts or bulbs left as everyone will buy them up. As always, YMMV.

If anyone is interested in what we have been provided by Sylvania regarding the Lamp legislation, here you go - keep in mind this is a gradual phase out and there are exceptions in each lamp class as only those that do not meet the new requirements will be obsoleted.

http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Documents/LEGIS01 11-2010.472d682c-6357-4513-8986-2e5952be2148.pdf

and here:
http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Documents/CONS-LEGIS-2010.4f30843d-1e56-4791-a827-8fd269771f3c.pdf

Tim

 

[GarageWrench]

I lived off of greenburg and north dakota a couple years ago, small world. I messed up in my earlier post, the bulbs are rated at 2800 lumens, and 4100k. Btw each fixture was only $40

 

[Mmfh]

Mm - I see in your avatar a Chevelle SS - you still have it? Are you an engine builder(from your signature)?
Tim

Hey Tim,

Actually I don't still have it but have been looking for one just like it again. I want that 70' SS 454 car that I shouldn't have sold when I was stupid.

I've been a engine builder all my life, ASE certified master engine builder. I'm in the works of setting up a shop at my house again. Major health problems caused me to shut down several years ago my big shop in Tigard. After three surgeries and lots of time to recuperate I'm setting up again.

 

[Mmfh]

I lived off of greenburg and north dakota a couple years ago, small world. I messed up in my earlier post, the bulbs are rated at 2800 lumens, and 4100k. Btw each fixture was only $40

That big complex on the corner where North Dakota meets Greenburg is where my shop was at. Used to be a Paper Plus I believe at the end on Greenburg.
11133 SW Greenburg was the address. It is a small world!

That's not a bad price on those fixtures, I'll keep that in mind as I don't see the ones I was going to get at Costco anymore.

 

[climbabout]

Hey Tim,

Actually I don't still have it but have been looking for one just like it again. I want that 70' SS 454 car that I shouldn't have sold when I was stupid.

I've been a engine builder all my life, ASE certified master engine builder. I'm in the works of setting up a shop at my house again. Major health problems caused me to shut down several years ago my big shop in Tigard. After three surgeries and lots of time to recuperate I'm setting up again.

Nice car - good luck in your search to find it. Nothing like 60's and early 70's American muscle. I have a 64 Vette - 327 365hp solid lifter - lot's of fun.
Tim