Best Lighting Option For My Shop?

[FearTheH]

So I've secured the funds, as well as permission from the wife, to go ahead with my shop next to our house. We will be adding a 30x50x14 steel structure. My need is, since the floor to ceiling(ridge/apex of the roof) will be roughly 17 feet, what type of lighting should I use to get optimal illumination? I would prefer to stay LED for energy efficiency as well as the cleanliness of the light produced. There will also be an upstairs in one quadrant of the structure. I am attaching some general drawings of the building, colors will be different.

For the floor, at this time, I am planning on power troweling, and using a densifying sealer. As always, thanks for your time in reading this as well as your suggestions!

 

[STx]

I'm currently in the process of building a 40x50x16 and got these for it - http://www.ebay.com/itm/122286973471?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT.

I haven't installed them in the shop yet, the PoCo just set the transformer Monday and the meter set isn't scheduled until later this week (they won't do it all at once for some reason) and I still need to get my roof on (25MPH winds have made that impossible). We're supposed to get a break from the wind Thu/Fri so I should be able to get the roof on then and get the lights in. I've powered them up in the house and they are BRIGHT, about like my 400W MH low bay was in a previous shop but, directed instead of spread, so I have high hopes for them.

 

[American Locomotive]

Something to keep in mind, is that LED doesn't automatically mean high quality light. There are plenty of LED fixtures that put out harsh, low CRI light that's only marginally better than MH light.

At 14-17 feet, you're starting to get into high-bay territory, so you may want to look towards that direction.

Also what are you plans for the shop? Where do you plan to do in there, and where do you want the lights to be?

 

[STx]

That's true about CRI and actual color temp with LED, it can be all over the map. In my application, I'll be primarily a welding shop and some vehicle/equipment maintenance and repairs. I don't really care about CRI, I just need really bright lights that don't flicker or cause nausea. For the price I paid for these, I can throw them away if they don't perform as expected.

When you're under a welding hood 40% of the time, lumens are all that really matter.

 

[FearTheH]

Thanks for the responses. I will be working on a project 48 chevy 5 window pickup, I'll have a small sheet metal shop in there as well as a 4 post lift for doing mechanical work, there will also be a loft area with man cave junk. Basically an all purpose shop but mostly metal fab. I just want to make sure I have ample lighting. I will also have a lean to with a downdraft system so I can also paint again finally!

 

[American Locomotive]

You're going to want a lot of light, like around 100fc/1300 lux. You'll want high CRI if you're going to be doing paint work, too.

What do you think the installed height of the lights will be.

 

[FearTheH]

I'm assuming the actual height of the lights will be at 15 to 16 feet above floor. What do those numbers mean in layman's terms? I understand lumens and voltage and that's about it.

 

[STx]

fc is foot candles, which is how we usually measure things in the US, it's how much light we actually have available to us where we want it. LEDs will have different fc ratings than equivalent lumen output fluorescent, MH, etc. because LED's project the light in one direction instead of radiating out 360*. CRI is color rendering index, it won't be as important in the shop where you just need to a lot of light to see but, will be very important in the paint booth. You're going to want a CRI or 90 or above there. I posted this photo I took at Lightfair a few years ago in another thread to show how important CRI is. All the shirts/ties are the same color in this photo, the bottom right is halogen and has the truest color. The other lights are CFL or LED and show just how much bad CRI can affect color appearance. The shirt was white, for reference.

 

[FearTheH]

That photo is excellent representation. The paint booth lighting with be easy since I've been around it nearly my entire life and know where to go to get the proper lighting.

The shop lighting is what I'm trying to figure out since I want it bright enough in there where I don't have to break out a flashlight and a magnet every time I drop a nut or bolt. My loft/man cave area will utilize standard residential lighting, probably cans with led floods.

 

[American Locomotive]

If you want it bright enough to not have to use flashlights, you're definitely going to want a lot of light - 100 fc minimum. More, less powerful fixtures would probably make for more even light with less shadows.

Do you have any particular brand/fixture in mind?

 

[STx]

I agree, more fixtures, lower output each is preferred. That gives more even coverage, eliminates hot spots and shadows. I'm putting 6 high bay LEDs in my 40x50 to start but, I'm not convinced I won't ultimately end up with 8 or 10.

This was one thing I did a lot when I was doing a lot of landscape lighting, lots of fixtures, low wattage. 4 20w, 60* halogen lamps on a tree gives a much better and more natural look than a single 100w floodlight.

 

[FearTheH]

So would the same principle of adding more fixtures at lower outputs also apply to higher outputs?

And no, I don't have any particular fixtures in mind and am going into this completely unbiased.

 

[tinysparky]

I agree, more fixtures, lower output each is preferred. That gives more even coverage, eliminates hot spots and shadows. I'm putting 6 high bay LEDs in my 40x50 to start but, I'm not convinced I won't ultimately end up with 8 or 10.

Which lights are you doing?

 

[STx]

Which lights are you doing?

These eBay specials - http://www.ebay.com/itm/122286973471?rmvSB=true

 

[STx]

So would the same principle of adding more fixtures at lower outputs also apply to higher outputs?

And no, I don't have any particular fixtures in mind and am going into this completely unbiased.

The idea is that if you're going to install 1,000 lumens that instead of installing 1 x 1,000 lumen fixture, you install 4 x 250 lumen fixtures to get better fill. There's math involved in figuring out how many lumens will be required to achieve a certain fc at a specified distance, it's sort of complicated but, doable. I'm just winging it because, "Math is hard, y'all." If I were doing an install for someone else, I'd work the calculations out but, for me I can add fixtures easily enough if I decide I need them.

 

[FearTheH]

Haha! I think I'll do the calculations so I get it right the first time while I already have the ladder(or platform lift if my buddy comes through) out and working off of it.

My next question is what do I look for to achieve the proper fc rating of 100?

 

[FearTheH]

Alright so I just found this lighting calculator online, entered all of the parameters and the option for intense illumination and it kicked back a figure of almost 28000 lumens needed to intensely light this building... so for really good even lighting of would need to install 28 1000 lumen lights correct?

 

[American Locomotive]

That calculator is literally assuming "Warehouse". Many warehouses are pretty dark inside. 28,000 lumens across 1,500 sq. ft is going to give you less than 18 fc of illumination. That's very dark.

Assuming 100 fc of illumination across the entire building, you're going to need at least 150,000 lumens minimum, probably closer to 200,000-250,000 lumens all said and done.

I can run a formal calculation using DialLUX to give you a better idea, but I'm going to need to know your lighting budget and the color/material of the floor, ceiling and walls.

 

[FearTheH]

I haven't really established a budget. I've already blown past what my wife wanted me to spend on the building alone so I'm really just building to my liking the first time instead of trying to add on later. I don't want to spend a fortune on it either lol.
The floor is going to be just regular old gray concrete but with a densifier and sealer added, all walls and roof interior will be white from the insulation backing that comes with the structure.

 

[American Locomotive]

Olay, and what's a "fortune?" to you? LED high bay lighting isn't going to be cheap.

 

[FearTheH]

I'd prefer to not spend 5k on lights, however I want good light so I'd really rather spend a little more to get a little more. I'd prefer led since I'm trying to be more conservative on the electric bill afterwards, but at the same time I'm open to ideas.

 

[STx]

That calculator is literally assuming "Warehouse". Many warehouses are pretty dark inside. 28,000 lumens across 1,500 sq. ft is going to give you less than 18 fc of illumination. That's very dark.

Assuming 100 fc of illumination across the entire building, you're going to need at least 150,000 lumens minimum, probably closer to 200,000-250,000 lumens all said and done.

I can run a formal calculation using DialLUX to give you a better idea, but I'm going to need to know your lighting budget and the color/material of the floor, ceiling and walls.

Agreed, 28,000 lumens won't be near enough. I'm starting at 60,000 with bright white walls and bare concrete and expect I'll find I need more. I have a 3 stage forklift so getting to my 16' ceiling is a trivial task, I just need someone to drive the lift truck and raise/lower me (don't tell OSHA).

This guy clearly knows what he's talking about, I'd follow his advice. Like he's already warned you, lighting isn't cheap and quality LED high bays are even less so. I'd probably be looking at multiple 10,000 - 20,000 lumen fixtures.

 

[Brandon314159]

In my 24x36x14 I went with x6 of these http://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc.com/James-High-Bay-4-Foot-225-Watt-p/zy-h3-225w.htm

They're hanging 16ft or so up (right on the purlins) and give me 100-120fc wall to wall at 3ft with my current setup and fill. I went with the 5K temperature, others have used the 4K (a long thread here about LED high bays).

I went this route because I didn't feel like wiring up 20+ fixtures and since my door is on the narrow end and I generally work in the center, I don't need the super even spread that a bunch more of smaller-power fixtures would provide. Also I have a forklift and pallet racking so I can't be hanging fixtures without risk of harm.

Advantage is that these are dimmable. It's plenty bright for my needs (general automotive/storage/etc.) and I can turn them down if not needing the full-meal-deal.

 

[American Locomotive]

@FearTheH, To stay name-brand, you're actually going to need about $5000 worth of LED high-bay lights. The fixtures are going to run you about 400-500 each, and you're going to need about 10, ~20,000 lumen, 160 watt fixtures to get decent, even lighting @ 100 fc.

No-name generic LED high-bay can be had at about half the cost, however.

Have you considered fluorescent? 15 Lithonia IBZ 632 WD fluorescent fixtures would also do the same job, and those fixtures run about $100/pc, and need around $20 worth of T8 bulbs each. If you're not trying to spend too much money, I'd lean towards the T8 fixtures.

The T8 fixtures will be using about 1KW of electricity more, total. So taking that into account, It'd take around ~5-6 years for the LED fixtures to pay for themselves.

Another option is put LED drop-in bulbs in the Lithonia fixtures - the savings won't be as great compared to putting the LED-drop in bulbs in normal fixtures, since the Lithonia fixtures are extremely photo-metrically efficient (~92%), but there will still be savings.

 

[Ed2010]

Following along. I'm in the process of building a 30x50x14 shop with a loft on one end and just starting to consider what I need to do about lighting.

 

[FearTheH]

@FearTheH, To stay name-brand, you're actually going to need about $5000 worth of LED high-bay lights. The fixtures are going to run you about 400-500 each, and you're going to need about 10, ~20,000 lumen, 160 watt fixtures to get decent, even lighting @ 100 fc.

No-name generic LED high-bay can be had at about half the cost, however.

Have you considered fluorescent? 15 Lithonia IBZ 632 WD fluorescent fixtures would also do the same job, and those fixtures run about $100/pc, and need around $20 worth of T8 bulbs each. If you're not trying to spend too much money, I'd lean towards the T8 fixtures.

The T8 fixtures will be using about 1KW of electricity more, total. So taking that into account, It'd take around ~5-6 years for the LED fixtures to pay for themselves.

Another option is put LED drop-in bulbs in the Lithonia fixtures - the savings won't be as great compared to putting the LED-drop in bulbs in normal fixtures, since the Lithonia fixtures are extremely photo-metrically efficient (~92%), but there will still be savings.

Fluorescent has definitely been considered and I haven't ruled it out at all, just wanted some good, solid advice from you guys before I pulled the trigger on anything since I'm still in the planning stages. We have the 6 tube high output fluorescent fixtures at work and they are roughly the same height(if not a little higher) than what I will have and they are waaaaaay brighter than the old big round fixtures(metal halide?)

Efficiency-wise I guess the Fluorescents would be tolerable. I'm trying to be as green as possible also...I'm planning on adding black water pipe coils on the roof to heat the water in the summer to save electricity... so I can be "green"/cheapskate haha. I really appreciate everyone's feedback!

 

[FearTheH]

Any opinions on these?
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Warehouse-LED...al-Halide-Lamps-400W-/252639191206?nav=SEARCH

 

[American Locomotive]

Any opinions on these?
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Warehouse-LED...al-Halide-Lamps-400W-/252639191206?nav=SEARCH

Considering they're claiming over 200 lumens/watt, which is basically 50-100% higher than every other commercial LED lighting solution, I'm not sure I'd consider that exactly "trustworthy"

 

[neilc]

I put up a farm shop last year that was 50 x 75 with 18' side walls and used these LED fixtures. Probably hang at about 18' from the floor on chains with flex cable boxes attached to the purlins. They have a CRI rating of 80 and a 5K color. Really pleased with the color rendition for the shop.

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/192404/PLT-20043.html

Attached is a layout drawing - I went with 8 of the LED lights and they put out an amazing amount of light - almost 20,000 lumens each x 8 or nearly 160,000 lumens total over the 3750 feet. That's about 42 lumens / sq ft. I had to offset lights on the two ends given the large doors. I put them on two circuits and frequently will only use one circuit in the shop. With both doors closed there is plenty of light and you can see the output in one early morning photo below.

Also put a dusk-to-dawn LED light on either end. I don't have that fixture link, but it also does a nice job on the exterior.

I'm REALLY pleased with the light output. The insulated white interior helps a lot with the light dispersion as well. I've purchased several LED bulbs and fixtures from 1000bulbs and they are great to deal with. Easy to get ahold of with questions over the phone and responsive to any problems. Had one fixture in my home basement that arrived damaged and they replaced with no hassles at all.

And they come with a 5 year warranty.

I debated a brand like Big-*** Lights but am glad I saved the money and went with these.

neil

 

[FearTheH]

Considering they're claiming over 200 lumens/watt, which is basically 50-100% higher than every other commercial LED lighting solution, I'm not sure I'd consider that exactly "trustworthy"

I figured it may be too good to be true. I do have about 20 old 2x4 fluorescent fixtures that I acquired during an office building remodel about 7 years ago when I was doing hvac work, I placed 8 in an old pole barn with 10 foot sidewalls and they did fine but still could've used a bit more. Plus it seemed that the tubes went out at the most inconvenient times lol

I put up a farm shop last year that was 50 x 75 with 18' side walls and used these LED fixtures. Probably hang at about 18' from the floor on chains with flex cable boxes attached to the purlins. They have a CRI rating of 80 and a 5K color. Really pleased with the color rendition for the shop.

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/192404/PLT-20043.html

Attached is a layout drawing - I went with 8 of the LED lights and they put out an amazing amount of light - almost 20,000 lumens each x 8 or nearly 160,000 lumens total over the 3750 feet. That's about 42 lumens / sq ft. I had to offset lights on the two ends given the large doors. I put them on two circuits and frequently will only use one circuit in the shop. With both doors closed there is plenty of light and you can see the output in one early morning photo below.

Also put a dusk-to-dawn LED light on either end. I don't have that fixture link, but it also does a nice job on the exterior.

I'm REALLY pleased with the light output. The insulated white interior helps a lot with the light dispersion as well. I've purchased several LED bulbs and fixtures from 1000bulbs and they are great to deal with. Easy to get ahold of with questions over the phone and responsive to any problems. Had one fixture in my home basement that arrived damaged and they replaced with no hassles at all.

And they come with a 5 year warranty.

I debated a brand like Big-*** Lights but am glad I saved the money and went with these.

neil

These look really good and I may end up going this route. Thanks for including pics, especially the night time illuminated picture. Do you know if the 5 year warranty covers the LED's or if it's just on the ballasts and whatnot?

 

[American Locomotive]

Generally with "assembled" LED fixtures like that, the warranty covers the entire fixture. The LEDs themselves aren't really considered a serviceable component.

12 of those fixtures in your 30x50 building would give you a little over 100 fc throughout the entire area. The 80 CRI is nice, and is much better than most of the high bay lights readily available through HD. Although still not quite as good as many modern fluorescent (and other LED) bulbs.

 

[Radix2]

Have you looked at this thread? http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337137

Lots of info in there.

I have a 40x50 and went with 12 of the 165W/20,000 lumen leds. I got the James branded ones from ledlightingwholsale http://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc.com/James-High-Bay-2-Foot-165-Watt-p/zy-h5-165w.htm. These are the same as those linked by Neil above, but $25 cheaper. So for a 40x50 you need around 240,000 lumens for about 100fc.

At least use the lithonia simulator to see what it takes. You can get decent led panels for under $200 these days, spending $120 on T8 doesn't make sense to me.

 

[86turbodsl]

I'm about 100fc in my shop, 40x64, T5HO 4 bulb with reflectors at 14' height. 18 fixtures, 5000K bulbs, no hot spots, excellent CRI. I used the light calculator everybody here uses.

 

[nsula_country]

Recently build a 40x60x17 steel building.

I am working on hanging the lights as we speak. they are 15-16 ft high.

Using T8, 4 lamp high bay fixtures. Went with 24 fixtures (US Energy, 1.15 GE ballast, $70/ea). Tubes are Maxlite 5k, 90+ CRI.

Raw lumens in the shop is about 330,000. Getting around 80-90 fc at 3' off floor. Fc may come out higher once I get all 24 hung! It is bright, no shadowing, and would only recommend 5k color. It is very natural appearing to me.

I am not using the phone app. I have an Ideal light meter that I am using.

CT

 

[cybrdyke]

Any opinions on these?
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Warehouse-LED...al-Halide-Lamps-400W-/252639191206?nav=SEARCH

Run away.
It's an empty shell with 6 bypass tubes, probably worth about $65.
And the ad is full of BS.
CD

 

[FearTheH]

Tons of great info from you guys, you all are awesome. What would you recommend for lighting underneath the loft area? Not sure what the height will be on that yet but will probably be around 10'

 

[neilc]

FearTheH -

5 year warranty covers the entire fixture. If it breaks they repair or more likely just replace it.

As for your loft, no reason you could not use the same fixtures, just fewer of them. I've been debating doing a loft over my work bench area given I have 18' side walls that would give me parts storage (with stairs) above and bench area below with a 9' height. I am thinking the same lights I used could work with maybe 2 over a 25 x 10' area or so.

neil -

 

[cybrdyke]

5 year warranty covers the entire fixture. If it breaks they repair or more likely just replace it.

I'll make you this promise....
They wont be around in 5 years to cover their warranty.
CD

 

[neilc]

I'll make you this promise....

They wont be around in 5 years to cover their warranty.

CD

1000bulbs has been around since 1994.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[nsula_country]

1000bulbs has been around since 1994.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have to agree. I use 1000 bulbs almost exclusive for my lighting needs. Website is easy to use.

CT