Well, I misunderstood then, sorry
Biscuit joiner or kreg pocket joiner?
- Thread starter dalehsc
- Start date
Well, I misunderstood then, sorry
acer66
Well-known member
Yes, I build all the frameless carcasses with pocket screws and am looking forward to learn cutting maybe by hand or jig mortise and tenon joints for the shaker style doors.
When I tackle the drawers there will be dove tails.
When I was remodeling carpenter 30 years ago we did a lot of custom cabinets, built-ins, office furniture etc... for high end homes and professional offices. We used biscuits almost exclusively and never had a problem. The Domino system looks interesting but I am not seeing a significant advantage over biscuits. Is there one?
dreamingmuscle
Well-known member
Harbor freight sells a pocket hole jig for a half the price and twice the quality. HF's is made of solid aluminum vs plastic from kreg.
https://www.harborfreight.com/catal...,EAFeatured+Weight,f,Sale+Rank,f&q=pocket+jig
https://www.harborfreight.com/catal...,EAFeatured+Weight,f,Sale+Rank,f&q=pocket+jig
acer66
Well-known member
On what is the quality claim based?
NWill
Well-known member
I have the HF one that I have used for 1000's of holes. Just get a ~$10 Kreg drill bit for it. I actually like it more than my Dad's fancy Kreg and yeah it was half that price. I also have a biscuit and Domino. The Domino is my go-to now but it was over 10x the price and my treat for redoing my kitchen. I also had to slowly save up over 2 years for it.
My vote goes to the HF jig on this one.
My vote goes to the HF jig on this one.
txvwnut
Well-known member
I have both a biscuit jointer and a pocket hole jig. I mainly use mortise and tenon joints when doing rail and stile type of construction. The biscuit jointer I'll use when I'm edge jointing long boards. I've used the pocket hole setup once and didn't really like it. The fit up between the pieces being joined wasn't as good as when I do a mortise and tenon joint and I just felt like I wasn't giving my best effort by using it.
I’ll add to my statement with this.
If your wanting to build something on the quick, like say a toy box for grandson that your wife neglected to tell you about until a week before christmas, then the pocket holes are a big plus since you can cut drill glue and screw and don’t have to wait for glue to dry while everything is in clamps. For basic cabinetry they are actually fine as you can hide most of the screw holes with careful placement, then there are plugs you can get to fill the screw hole.
I’ll add to my statement with this.
If your wanting to build something on the quick, like say a toy box for grandson that your wife neglected to tell you about until a week before christmas, then the pocket holes are a big plus since you can cut drill glue and screw and don’t have to wait for glue to dry while everything is in clamps. For basic cabinetry they are actually fine as you can hide most of the screw holes with careful placement, then there are plugs you can get to fill the screw hole.
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I'd be inclined to invest in a better dado set or tenon jig for better joinery than a biscuit joiner or a pocket screw jig. Pocket screws just seem sorta half-assed, even if they work a lot of the time. For faceframes, I'd much rather do mortises, lap joints, bridle joints, miter joints with splines, anything. The one place I like biscuits (other than meals) is putting faceframes on boxes without nailing, and that can be done with a router and slot cutter.
Cooter Brown
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2017
- Messages
- 316
I didn't know that, thanks for the info
FineWoodWorking did a "joint strength test" back in 2009. Here is a link to how they actually did the test:
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2009/02/25/joint-strength-test
In reality, I have never had a 'cope and stick' cabinet door type joint fail, and it is at the bottom of the pile
Thanks for posting that. I'm surprised that a **** joint tested stronger than a cope and stick. The way a C&S works out is that given parts of equal width, the length of the joint is a little shorter than the **** joint, but it seems the stub tenon and the extra glue surface of the cope would make up for that.
I never thought biscuits added much strength, and given the occasional alignment problems it didn't take me long to stop using them. They are also slow and when you're trying to make a buck that matters.
I did a test one time--I made ****, pocket, and cope and stick joints out of 3/4" cherry 2 1/4" wide, 2 each. The test consisted of holding one end of the 90 and smacking the other down on the poured concrete floor of the shop, toward the inside of the joint. I removed the screws on one of the pocket screw joints.
All of them failed by splitting at the outside stick of the joint, what would be the stile on a door or face frame. The glue joint held on all, stronger than the wood itself.
I had no objective way to measure what would happen spreading the joint the other way.
hsvtoolfool
Well-known member
I do love wood joint strength tests ( such as dovetail vs finger and pockets vs mortise). But even at the low end of the "scale", I am astounded at the strength of lowly biscuit joints.
Many years ago, I built a floating arm trebuchet for a Halloween Punkin' Chunkin' party. Despite the forces involved, I used pine 2x4, 2x6, and #20 biscuits. I doubled the biscuits side-by-side, and biscuited 6x6 square corner braces in a few critical places. To my surprise, all joints were very strong, even for cross-grain. It was like they were solid mortise and tenon joints. I never really had the patience to "tune" that trebuchet for its maximum distance, but the frame remained solid and tight for years until I cut it apart.
Otherwise, I cut mortise and tenons by hand for fine furniture or anything too small for biscuits. I admit my prejudice. Pockets and screws make me think of mass-produced, store-bought stuff. When hand-building my entire kitchen, I want to use the best hardwood I can afford finished with stain and clear to highlight the grain. I can buy or farm out painted cabinets cheaper than I can make them myself.
Many years ago, I built a floating arm trebuchet for a Halloween Punkin' Chunkin' party. Despite the forces involved, I used pine 2x4, 2x6, and #20 biscuits. I doubled the biscuits side-by-side, and biscuited 6x6 square corner braces in a few critical places. To my surprise, all joints were very strong, even for cross-grain. It was like they were solid mortise and tenon joints. I never really had the patience to "tune" that trebuchet for its maximum distance, but the frame remained solid and tight for years until I cut it apart.
Otherwise, I cut mortise and tenons by hand for fine furniture or anything too small for biscuits. I admit my prejudice. Pockets and screws make me think of mass-produced, store-bought stuff. When hand-building my entire kitchen, I want to use the best hardwood I can afford finished with stain and clear to highlight the grain. I can buy or farm out painted cabinets cheaper than I can make them myself.
Iooking at your FW chart it seems to reveal the not surprising fact that the fatter the tenon the stronger it is, regardless of the minor details like how the mortise is cut or any little grooves on the tenon. I just looked up the dimensions of the Domino and it is 4x20mm. That seems to explain it's place on the chart. I subscribe to FW. I knew I saw that chart someplace. Thanks for posting it.I didn't know that, thanks for the info
FineWoodWorking did a "joint strength test" back in 2009. Here is a link to how they actually did the test:
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2009/02/25/joint-strength-test
And this is the overall results. As you can see the Beadlock placed quite well but it's hard to beat a true tenon. Note the floating tenon is almost as strong as a traditional mortise and tenon joint. With a good router and a simple jig, you can cut mortises pretty easily. That is why I posted the pic of that Woodhaven SOSS Jig
In reality, I have never had a 'cope and stick' cabinet door type joint fail, and it is at the bottom of the pile
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jimreed2160
Well-known member
The FWW testing is a great start. I like to do my own testing. For instance, I usually make tabletops oversized and square up afterward. That gives me some cutoffs to test. It is also easy to make biscuit joints and Kreg jig joints in scraps and then test them.
And it is fun to tear stuff up for a change. This destructive testing has led me to changes in glue ups and other things. For example, I do not use glue on Kreg jig projects where strength is not an issue. The dry joints are very strong. Biscuits, however, need glue. And double biscuits make VERY strong joints.
And it is fun to tear stuff up for a change. This destructive testing has led me to changes in glue ups and other things. For example, I do not use glue on Kreg jig projects where strength is not an issue. The dry joints are very strong. Biscuits, however, need glue. And double biscuits make VERY strong joints.
toolmiser
Well-known member
I have a lot of woodworking tools, but no Domino. Which one do you suggest? Big or small? I know you can get aftermarket adapters for the large one, but they sure don't give them away. Maybe I am fine without one.
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Beadlock is the poorman's version of the Domino. Check them out before you invest in the domino.
I also own a shitload of woodworking tools... but no Domino. I do have the biggest dowelmax setup you can get, all of the Beadlock things and 2 biscuit jointers...
acer66
Well-known member
I tried to figure out what comes with HF one but I could not find any description.
The metal automatically somewhat better than plastic argument dm makes is getting old.
I have no experience with HF customer care service but kregs is top notch in my experience.
Thank you all ! Very good discussion...I'm still undecided.
My wife and I are moving from our story and a half home with a two bay attached garage and large barn in the country to her mothers bungalow in a small town. A one vehicle garage in the basement,and a small shed. Downsizing to the max! Mom-in-law still has the box her electric kettle came in when she bought it 20 yrs ago. Well she did................!
I've got a start on the "work shop" end of the basement,but I've got some shelving,book case,cabinet ideas,and was looking for advice. I have some rough carpentry skills,but wanted to up the quality of my projects. I see the need for more research.
My wife and I are moving from our story and a half home with a two bay attached garage and large barn in the country to her mothers bungalow in a small town. A one vehicle garage in the basement,and a small shed. Downsizing to the max! Mom-in-law still has the box her electric kettle came in when she bought it 20 yrs ago. Well she did................!
I've got a start on the "work shop" end of the basement,but I've got some shelving,book case,cabinet ideas,and was looking for advice. I have some rough carpentry skills,but wanted to up the quality of my projects. I see the need for more research.
For those kind of projects pocket holes are probably the simplest and quickest of the discussed options.
crewchief888
Well-known member
i have both, and ive never used the biscuit joiner.
i originally bought the biscuit joiner used at a pawn shop for a farmhouse type table top the wife wanted, but that plan fell through when we found a tabletop she liked.
i wasnt looking forward to making the top anyway....
i did the "butlers pantry" in our kitchen as well as several freestanding shelf units with the little kreg jig for pocket holes, and used the kreg shelf hole jig for the adjustable shelves.
works for me.
i originally bought the biscuit joiner used at a pawn shop for a farmhouse type table top the wife wanted, but that plan fell through when we found a tabletop she liked.
i wasnt looking forward to making the top anyway....
i did the "butlers pantry" in our kitchen as well as several freestanding shelf units with the little kreg jig for pocket holes, and used the kreg shelf hole jig for the adjustable shelves.
works for me.
jimreed2160
Well-known member
Here is the HF version. I have one and like it.
https://www.harborfreight.com/portable-pocket-hole-jig-kit-96264.html
acer66
Well-known member
Thank you.
jgromada
Well-known member
The Kreg exterior may be some high density plastic but where the drill bit goes is metal. I don't see where the HF comes with a special drill bit. The Kreg uses a special step bit and with the fasteners creates a very strong joint.
cderalow
Well-known member
one thing to be cognizant of with pocket screws is that it helps when the material is thicker.
pocket screws in 1/2" ply don't work so well.
pocket screws in 1/2" ply don't work so well.
acer66
Well-known member
Yes on the kreg and jimreed posted a link with the stuff the HF one comes with and it comes with a step bit and screws.
https://www.harborfreight.com/portable-pocket-hole-jig-kit-96264.html
My vote still goes out for kreg because of their customer service.
jimreed2160
Well-known member
I use the HF because it is sturdy. But I use Kreg drill bits and Kreg screws because I like them much better than the HF versions. The Kreg bits are $14, but you can often buy the mini kit on sale and get a second handy jig.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kreg-8-25-in-Mini-Jig-Pocket-Hole-Kit-MKJKIT/100375609
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kreg-8-25-in-Mini-Jig-Pocket-Hole-Kit-MKJKIT/100375609
Short version: OP get the Kreg K4 or K5 (or equivalent), you won't regret it. Along with the 500 or 1000 ct boxes of 1.25" screws (or whatever size appropriate for the lumber you're working with) from Amazon.
Longer version: I bought my Kreg (master kit, which is now equivalent to their K4 from the looks of it) some 10yrs ago as a then novice. Today it's still the only wood joinery tool I use...and I'm still a novice woodworker. What I'm saying is that for a home owner and newbie it's the easiest joinery to use on real usable projects. If you get into woodworking you can decide if you want to switch to some other method. For me the answer is no and I also already own bags of dowels and related jigs...but for me the ease and speed of the pocket screws can't be beat for the price.
Longer version: I bought my Kreg (master kit, which is now equivalent to their K4 from the looks of it) some 10yrs ago as a then novice. Today it's still the only wood joinery tool I use...and I'm still a novice woodworker. What I'm saying is that for a home owner and newbie it's the easiest joinery to use on real usable projects. If you get into woodworking you can decide if you want to switch to some other method. For me the answer is no and I also already own bags of dowels and related jigs...but for me the ease and speed of the pocket screws can't be beat for the price.
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soj
Well-known member
Agree on the square drive. I have looked for torx drive screws that would work, but no luck.
Agree on the square drive. I have looked for torx drive screws that would work, but no luck.
Interesting, I like the square drive screws and dislike Torx (internal or external) with a passion because they have more chances of them getting buggered up from torque, I used to own a VW and a BMW. Although in woodworking the torque isn't high so that won't be much of an issue.
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acer66
Well-known member
Local HD has the $99 jig with a free clamp, the small jig and something else I can not remember right now.
They claim its a $139 value for $99.
I also have no problem with the square heads.
They claim its a $139 value for $99.
I also have no problem with the square heads.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
I don't know what issue exactly you had but most of the time if you are buggering torx fasteners you are using the wrong bit or socket. Ie using a T25 bit on T27 fasteners(that many sets skip?). The VW are notorious for using trisquare not torx. Look similar but the angles are wrong and you will Buggar fasteners if you use a torx bit. There is also torx plus. Another issue is that torx will take much higher torque per size than any other driver so some manufactures take high torque fasteners with the smallest head possible. If they used square drive with similar torque values the results would be disastrous. The torques for wood working means that torx is so under stressed if you use the correct size.
As an industrial mech I have found there is no other small fastener that will hold up as well as torx drive. They are pretty universal for indexable cutter body screws as they are removed and reinstalled multiple times a day when indexing inserts. (External) Hex bolts are better if you have the room but torx is better than Allen(internal hex), phillips, JIS, pozidrive, or square drive.
That being said I would take a square drive over phillips any day.
Good points. My experience comes from old crusty torx that get filled with gunk and rust (similar to anything internal I guess) except they're used in place of external hex bolts i.e. use cases where much higher bolt torque is required. Add in the low contact surface area (tiny teeth vs. large shoulders) that's how they would easily get stripped. You're right about trisquare and I have a set of those too that I had to buy and hope to never use them again either. For me a simple square drive for woodworking, hex for most other things works great, I can even deal with Philips in low torque use cases like say a electronics etc but running into anything resembling allen heads (I have plenty on my lathe and mill) and their variations in high torque situations I develop a tick
