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Bleeding brakes: Which tool will bleed all the air out???

Badger Rob

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2014
Messages
14
Location
Madison, WI
Another vote for Motive.
Years ago I built my own Motive style brake bleeder using a garden sprayer from plans shared on car enthusiast website. These were basically the prototype types for the Motive units. Works well but I have purchased a couple of adapter caps from Motive over the years. Getting a tight seal at the reservoir is a PITA. Just buy the Motive - it will be cheaper in the long run
 
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48548

Well-known member
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
4,031
Location
Phoenix
Scanner, lol. Sliding on gravel will do that for you too.

This was much easier when I changed out the brakes on my wife's car.

20140628_080436_zps2gtmnz1a.jpg


20140628_080907_zpslmtdjump.jpg
 

Ramblin Man

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Messages
225
Location
Middle Tennessee
Just thinking out loud here, but if the brake pedal has went all the way to the floor, the piston and seals in the master cylinder have went past their normal range of travel. The seals COULD be damaged by debris when they got pressed into the debris.

If you suspect this, you can remove the lines on the master cylinder, cap the lines, screw plugs in the master cylinder ports and see if you have a firm pedal then.

Here is the bleeding procedure from Honda service info for the Element:



2010 ELEMENT - - Brake System Bleeding

Do not spill brake fluid on the vehicle; it may damage the paint. If brake fluid does contact the paint, wash it off immediately with water.

NOTE:

Do not reuse the drained fluid. Use only new Honda DOT 3 Brake Fluid from an unopened container. Using a non-Honda brake fluid can cause corrosion and shorten the life of the system.

Make sure no dirt or other foreign matter matter gets in the brake fluid.

The reservoir connected to the master cylinder must be at the MAX (upper) level mark at the start of the bleeding procedure, and checked after bleeding each wheel location. Add fluid as required.

Make sure the brake fluid level in the reservoir (A) is at the MAX (upper) level line (B).

Have someone slowly pump the brake pedal several times, then apply steady pressure.

Start the bleeding at the driver's side of the front brake system.

NOTE: Bleed the calipers in the sequence shown.

Attach a length of clear drain tube (A) to the bleed screw (B), then loosen the bleed screw to allow air to escape from the system. Then tighten the bleed screw securely.
Front
Rear

Refill the master cylinder reservoir to the MAX (upper) level line.

Repeat the procedure for each brake circuit until there are no air bubbles in the fluid.

Portions of materials contained herein are sourced from American Honda Motor Inc., Co.



Edit: They show a figure of a vehicle, but do not give the specific order after the LF. I do not know why the figure did not show after I pasted it.
 
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tonyx

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
109
Well, this is going to piss-off a lot of people.

1. Vacuum bleeding *****. I've done it using a Mity-Vac, but not for twenty years. I gave up on it. You need to seal the bleeder screw to the wheel cylinder or you'll never know when you're done. The vacuum ***** air around the threads of the bleeder screw, or past the wheel cylinder cups, so there's ALWAYS air coming through the hose. Remember that wheel cylinder cups are designed to seal the fluid IN, they're not designed to seal air OUT. In normal use, they never see a vacuum.

2. Reverse-injection bleeding *****. It ***** twice as hard when you buy some expensive tool to do it. All you need is to PUSH THE CALIPER PISTON(s) BACK INTO THE CALIPER. Of course, drum brakes are going to require some sort of special tool. The problem with reverse-injection bleeding is that it can only be done on a clean system or you're pushing contaminated fluid back through the ABS valving and the master cylinder. The fluid at the wheel cylinder (including caliper) is probably the most-contaminated fluid in the vehicle. So first you're bleeding in the regular direction, to get clean fluid into the caliper, so that then you can push it backwards? Friggin' crazy. The only time this makes sense is when the system is totally empty and clean. And THEN, you still have to bleed in the normal direction to finish the process, because the bleeder screw is always higher than the hose leading back to the master cylinder, and so you'll leave a bubble in the wheel cylinder unless you final-bleed out the bleeder screw. Does "Phoenix" tell you this?

3. Motive Products and other "pressure bleeders" that are some variation of a garden-sprayer don't have a diaphragm to separate the fluid from the air. As a result, the humidity in the air pumped into the "pressure bleeder" will immediately contaminate the brake fluid. Garden-sprayer bleeders are a poor solution--and it's not like they're inexpensive.

4. "Two-man" bleeding is a waste of labor. There's no reason on Earth that automotive brake bleeding should take two people, unless one of them is a Victoria's Secret model, and the other just likes to look up her skirt from under the car when she pumps the pedal. Overall, not a bad plan. It always ends with lots of pumping, but then you have to go back and work on the brakes.

5. I have no experience with "Speed Bleeders", I don't have any problems with the following two methods. "Speed Bleeders" just seem like an additional, un-needed expense.

6. Gravity bleeding takes no special tools, requires little set-up and take-down time. Does not waste fluid. Takes a long time to actually do the bleeding, so I reserve this method for when I'm doing minor work at/near the wheel cylinder.

7. Pressure bleeding with a diaphragm-style bleeder requires an investment in equipment, considerable set-up and take-down time, but the actual bleeding goes like lightning. I reserve this method for fluid flushes, extensive work, or work at/near the master cylinder.

For the record, I have NEVER had to "push the pin" on a metering/holdoff/combination valve to get fluid flow to the front wheels. Yes, the service manual says you have to do this. No, I've never actually needed to, and I've pressure-bled a bazillion cars over the years.

8. If you've bled the system once, thoroughly, you probably have an air pocket at the master cylinder, because the master cylinder is tipped "up" in front. You can bleed until the end of time and never pop that bubble out of the angled master cylinder. This is common as dirt. Raise the back of the vehicle to drop the front of the master cylinder, or remove the cylinder from it's mount WITHOUT removing the brake tubing. Push the front of the master so it's angled "down" just a little--and tickle the master primary piston while watching the "geyser" in the compensating port(s). As soon as the master is tipped "down" in front, the bubble should release into the reservoir provided there's a little fluid movement back and forth.

I think we have the final say on this topic here ^^^. Thank you. I can't add any more than what he said.:thumbup:
 

Finky198

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
2,120
Location
North East
Yup a pressure bleeder and a second set of hands is the best operation. Used a mity vac system before super nice, its on my list of things to purchase along with a few other products of theirs...
 
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OP
I

impactsocket

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Joined
Jan 9, 2014
Messages
769
When I did the 2 man bleeding on the Honda Element, I followed the Helm manual and I placed a telephone book at the floor so the pedal never hit bottom.
 

L.Cheapo

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
6,000
When I did the 2 man bleeding on the Honda Element, I followed the Helm manual and I placed a telephone book at the floor so the pedal never hit bottom.

What is this "telephone book" you speak of?





(kidding, but someday, someone WILL post that, without kidding)
 

kctyphoon

Banned
Joined
Jun 9, 2014
Messages
9,102
Location
Jersey/Staten Island
I just use a clear plastic hose and a 20 ounce coke bottle that has a wire wrapped around the top so I can hang it. You just need to have brake fluid in the bottle, and have the hose under the fluid level so it can't **** air back in.. Start with the wheel furthest from the master cylinder and work to the closest. It's simple but it works fine. Actually, if you look close, I stuck a wire in the inside the hose that's in the bottle too, so there is no way for the hose to bend up, and accidentally **** air in if I start with only a little fluid in the bottle.. Obviously what's in there is really old..m

image.jpg
 
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anndel

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Joined
Oct 28, 2015
Messages
3,270
Location
Hawaii, USA
I just bled the brakes on our truck and my wife was the best tool as she did the pumping. Now her calves look like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
 
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