Boiler condensate

[R_C]

what's the boiler output and the heat load of the building ... lowest firing. With a SLP and your low indoor temp .... it sound like it's just a case of low BTU's needed. do you have temp gauges on the various pipes

According to the heating system summary provided by the company that did the pex tube layout the total heating load is about 24,000 btu/hr. The boiler does have a temperature sensor fastened to the copper output pipe. I don't know what the boiler output really is but I've attached a sequence of images (in the order taken) showing the boiler's front panel. The names of the image files include the time taken in HHMMSS. The images show the status of the boiler and system pumps, the setpoint in parentheses, and the "1" in the house icon indicates the garage thermostat's call for heat.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

The boiler should be able to modulate around the setpoint... however if its oversized or the flowrate is too low it'll short-cycle hitting the setpoint quickly.

With Lochinvar's you can set a ramp rate for the modulation that help with short-cycling. There are a lot of variables...

 

[R_C]

The boiler should be able to modulate around the setpoint... however if its oversized or the flowrate is too low it'll short-cycle hitting the setpoint quickly.

With Lochinvar's you can set a ramp rate for the modulation that help with short-cycling. There are a lot of variables...

Is that something I should be able to figure out by digging through the manuals or should I find someone proficient with Lochinvar boilers? Keep in mind this is my first boiler.

 

[rlitman]

...With Lochinvar's you can set a ramp rate for the modulation that help with short-cycling. There are a lot of variables...

Yep.

Is that something I should be able to figure out by digging through the manuals or should I find someone proficient with Lochinvar boilers? Keep in mind this is my first boiler.

I think they have a tech support hotline. That may be your best bet.

 

[SALIV8]

Ive worked in a building that had a minisplit cooling a server room 24/7/365 and the condensate pump was 1/4” or maybe 3/8” soft copper piped to outside with at least 10’ of piping being outside. It was not insualted and never froze up. And we get cold winters here in Chicago.

 

[R_C]

I think they have a tech support hotline. That may be your best bet.

That's a good idea. I'll give them a call.

 

[brewchief]

That's a good idea. I'll give them a call.

They may not want to talk to a homeowner, if that's the case see if they will give you a number for a field technical adviser ( or whatever they call it) this may be the guy that does training for contractors and helps contractors with technical problems.

FWIW there is a lot of good info in the installation manual and the service manual that were provided with your boiler, the lochinvar controller has a lot of options and it can take a good bit of time to really dial one in perfectly. There are several different menus and you need to enter passwords to get into them, the passwords are in the manuals. I write the passwords on the inside of the boiler door so I don't have to look in the book each time.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[R_C]

They may not want to talk to a homeowner, if that's the case see if they will give you a number for a field technical adviser ( or whatever they call it) this may be the guy that does training for contractors and helps contractors with technical problems.

FWIW there is a lot of good info in the installation manual and the service manual that were provided with your boiler, the lochinvar controller has a lot of options and it can take a good bit of time to really dial one in perfectly. There are several different menus and you need to enter passwords to get into them, the passwords are in the manuals. I write the passwords on the inside of the boiler door so I don't have to look in the book each time.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Thanks for that info. I had seen mention of the installer password in one of the manuals so I thought most settings would be inaccessible to the user. I spent some time today with the service manual, found the password, and looked at many of the settings in the boiler's menus. It looks like most are at their defaults. If I understand the outdoor air reset curve it appears the setpoint adjusts to 130F when the outdoor temperature is 25F or below even though I have the setpoint at 110F.

I found that the boiler has had 760 ignition cycles in the 45 days it has been running. That seems excessive. I will contact the company that did the installation again and discuss the cycles and dialing in the settings. If they won't help I'll see if Lochinvar will put me in touch with someone who can.

 

[johnnyradiant]

About 1-1/2 ignitions per hour over 45 days doesn't seem too bad if the burn times don't last until just before the next ignition or if they don't last for only a minute or two.

 

[tricountytrail]

Ok here is how it works.
The Boiler modulates to the delta temp between the input and output to the boiler.
Do you have pics of the setup. It should not be cycling that much. It sounds like you do not have enough flow through your system and your primary loop it getting to temp and anti cycling the furnace. post some pics. I would turn up the loop circulating pump for the loops which should increase the boiler delta temp and allow it to run for longer times instead of short cycling. My setup is set at 55 when heat is called for It runs for about 1 hour warms the concrete to apx 64 and then doesn't runs for 24 hours. thats on a very well insulated shop.

 

[tricountytrail]

Here are some pictures of mine. You should have a primary loop in your system shown it the second picture.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=954590&stc=1&d=1575904831
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=954591&stc=1&d=1575904874

 

[R_C]

Ok here is how it works.
The Boiler modulates to the delta temp between the input and output to the boiler.
Do you have pics of the setup. It should not be cycling that much. It sounds like you do not have enough flow through your system and your primary loop it getting to temp and anti cycling the furnace. post some pics. I would turn up the loop circulating pump for the loops which should increase the boiler delta temp and allow it to run for longer times instead of short cycling. My setup is set at 55 when heat is called for It runs for about 1 hour warms the concrete to apx 64 and then doesn't runs for 24 hours. thats on a very well insulated shop.

I just watched a complete cycle and it only takes about two or three minutes: prepurge, ignition, percent climbs from about 15% to 100%, postpurge, blocked (anti-cycling), setpoint met. In another minute or two it starts all over. Here are pictures of the install, setup screens, and the blocked screen. The primary loop is on the top with the black boiler pump. The green system pump is in the lower left.

 

[tricountytrail]

What are the supply and return temps on the ACTUAL temp gauges on the manifolds?
Make sure the system pump is in the correct flow direction and is starting.
What are the flow gauges reading when the pump is on?

 

[tricountytrail]

Are your pumps single speed or can you adjust them? Check the direction of your boiler pump there is a check valve in most of those pumps and it should be on and flowing.
run the system pump on high and the boiler pump on low. The boiler should not be coming up to that temp that fast. the hot water must not be going out to your system. what is the temp of the building?

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Not sure if someone else suggested this or not, but you could tee after your neutralizer and run one leg outside (where it will freeze sometimes) and have a higher overflow line that will drain to your 30 gallon tank only when the outside line is frozen.

I had a similar setup on mine for a few years and it worked pretty well. The outside drain only froze for maybe 5 to 10 days per winter...so it really cut down on the number of tank fill ups.

Phil

 

[R_C]

There is no control line so the Taco system pump must be single speed and its pump body shows correct flow direction to the supply manifold. The boiler pump does have a control line so it should be variable speed. The supply temperature gauge quickly climbed to about 130F but the return gauge only moved from about 60F to 70F during the cycle I just watched. The flow gauges appear to be reading only about 0.4 when the heating design shows the flow for the four loops between 0.59 and 0.67 USGPM. Could that be the problem? No flow? Do the blue knobs on the return manifold adjust the flow rate?

 

[R_C]

Not sure if someone else suggested this or not, but you could tee after your neutralizer and run one leg outside (where it will freeze sometimes) and have a higher overflow line that will drain to your 30 gallon tank only when the outside line is frozen.

I had a similar setup on mine for a few years and it worked pretty well. The outside drain only froze for maybe 5 to 10 days per winter...so it really cut down on the number of tank fill ups.

Phil

I saw that layout on the neutralizer's instruction sheet. That is my plan for next year. After I create and insulate an exterior drain next summer I'll tee into the drain with the higher overflow bypass going to the 30 gallon drum.

 

[rlitman]

Not sure if someone else suggested this or not, but you could tee after your neutralizer and run one leg outside (where it will freeze sometimes) and have a higher overflow line that will drain to your 30 gallon tank only when the outside line is frozen.

I had a similar setup on mine for a few years and it worked pretty well. The outside drain only froze for maybe 5 to 10 days per winter...so it really cut down on the number of tank fill ups.

Phil

You just made me have an idea.

A trickle of water may freeze, but if your drain is well pitched, a flush of water running out of it won't.

So, why not have the tank evacuate itself using something like a bell siphon? That would allow the tank to fill up, then drain just about completely like a toilet, and then fill up again.

 

[tricountytrail]

That makes more sense. The company that did the pex tube layout used CAD software. I checked their software's output and it shows a floor temperature of 79 degrees requiring a water temperature of 118 degrees for an embedded slab with outside temperature of 10 below. Hopefully, I'll hear from the installer tomorrow and I will see why he has the setpoint at 130 degrees. Maybe that's a default which he never adjusted.

There is no control line so the Taco system pump must be single speed and its pump body shows correct flow direction to the supply manifold. The boiler pump does have a control line so it should be variable speed. The supply temperature gauge quickly climbed to about 130F but the return gauge only moved from about 60F to 70F during the cycle I just watched. The flow gauges appear to be reading only about 0.4 when the heating design shows the flow for the four loops between 0.59 and 0.67 USGPM. Could that be the problem? No flow? Do the blue knobs on the return manifold adjust the flow rate?

The knobs on the return manifolds could be isolation valves for bleeding If they are closed they will not allow flow.
Is your building warm? The system loop should be pulling the heat from the boiler loop or the boiler will short cycle. I see the air bleed valve for the system loop is closed in the picture. Double check you have all air from system.

 

[R_C]

I have the thermostat set to 52F and the garage does warm up above that temperature most days so the boiler is mostly running in the overnight hours. The blue knobs on the return manifold have plus and minus direction symbols on top so I'll see if they do adjust the flow. I was instructed to close a couple of air bleed valves a few days after installation. I think I closed them after the glycol feeder was no longer kicking in to maintain pressure as air was bleeding. I'll check them again to see if any air escapes.

 

[tricountytrail]

The blue knobs on the return manifold have plus and minus direction symbols on top so I'll see if they do adjust the flow.

The flow is usually adjusted on the red knobs, the return (blue) can ussally recieve a control valve to open or close loop. Then should be all to way loose to be fully open, these are not adjustable just on or off.

 

[R_C]

I just learned that the company who installed the boiler will be sending their lead tech in a couple of weeks to check it out and optimize all of the settings. Hopefully, he will get the boiler running properly.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Where is the system thermocouple located? The boiler is setup to use system temp and outdoor temp (outdoor reset)? The system thermocouple should be mounted somewhere on the hot-side of the secondary loop (just prior to the manifold).

Your boiler setup has primary/secondary loops. Though I can't tell which way the flow is on the primary loop. I see the arrows on the secondary loop. Also on the secondary loop your pumping towards the expansion tank, its preferable to pump away.

Are the circulators multi-speed?

Running for only a minute or two... sounds like a lack of flow.

 

[R_C]

The system thermocouple is on the hot side of the secondary loop. You can see it attached to the copper with two black nylon ties in the boiler install picture. The system pump is fixed speed but the boiler pump on the primary loop is variable speed.

The lead tech for the company that did the install just configured the boiler's parameters. It turns out the installer was their boiler maintenance tech and as I suspected he only set the combustion parameters and left everything else at defaults. Today's tech is the one that does all boiler startups (except mine for some reason). He enabled and configured the outdoor air reset curve so now the setpoint varies along the curve based on outdoor temperature. And he enabled and configured the boiler's ramp feature. Now it will start at 10% output for 10 minutes, then 20% for 10 minutes, on up to 90% at two minutes and 100% for one minute. No more short-cycling. He verified that there was good flow through the tubes. The condensate is now steadily dripping in the 30 gallon drum.

 

[rlitman]

Sounds like you've got it all under control now. Excellent!

 

[R_C]

Yes, I believe I finally have the boiler dialed in like others described. I really appreciate all the comments and suggestions from contributors to this forum. I've learned plenty.

I'm just frustrated that the installation company didn't configure the boiler from the start. It is a side effect of my location. Too much trophy home construction in the adjacent county so contractors aren't interested in little projects like mine.

 

[rlitman]

Yes, I believe I finally have the boiler dialed in like others described. I really appreciate all the comments and suggestions from contributors to this forum. I've learned plenty.

I'm just frustrated that the installation company didn't configure the boiler from the start. It is a side effect of my location. Too much trophy home construction in the adjacent county so contractors aren't interested in little projects like mine.

Glad we got you set straight.

As for the installer dropping the ball, I think that's more then norm than you'd think. My personal experience with the commissioning of a Lochinvar boiler in a commercial setting pretty much mirrors yours.

The problem is that most installers figure they can just leave the defaults and it will work, since they learned on cast iron boilers where this was fine. And the bigger problem is that it WILL work (as you've seen)! At least for the warranty period.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Glad it worked out... I enabled ramp delay on my Lochinvar as well to lengthen cycles during the shoulder season when outdoor temps are 40-50*. Essentially the heat loss in the building is less than the minimum the boiler can modulate down to. So it eventually it hits/exceeds set-point and cycles. On older Lochinvars I believe the turn-down ratio was 5:1, so a boiler could modulate down to 20%. I have a WHN055 (55k) in our house, so the minimum fire rate is 11k BTU.

ODR wont really help as it'll force lower target temps at warmer temps and the boiler will hit them faster.

Hopefully for the OP the current outdoor temps are not very low or near "design" temp. As temperatures continue to drop, the cycles should go longer and longer.