Bolting Down A Safe

[Dynasty]

I'm looking for advice on properly bolting down a gun safe.

The safe will be on the second level of the house, on top of carpet, carpet padding, sub floor plywood, and finally floor joists. I know to remove/notch out the carpet area where the bolts will be secured to avoid damaging the carpet when drilling the pilot hole. The best case scenario would be to bolt into the floor joists, but I am not 100% sure all 4 pre-cut from the factory bolt holes will line up to hit them. When it comes to the bolt itself, what should I be looking at? What length?

Please note: bolting to concrete is not an option

Thank you

 

[Thumper68]

What size are the holes in the safe? I would use a combination of spax lags and toggle bolts in the proper size for the holes.

 

[Ed Devinney]

Assuming that if the safe on a second floor it's a gun safe vs a real safe-safe. IMO the mail reason you bolt it down is so the thief cant get it on to the floor or out of the house - either situation makes it very likely that he can physically overpower.

So you want to make sure that the bolts can't be torn out of the subfloor if they try to tilt the safe. If the floor bolts are the only thing to stop tilting I'd want to use large toggle or T bolts.

 

[Blue XJ]

I'd use lag bolts for the two holes that line up with the floor joist, 2-2.5" is probably fine in whatever diameter fits the holes.

For the other two, I would get these in whatever diameter/thread needed for the bolts and use regular hex bolts to go through the floor into them

If you are really concerned about strength, attach a 2x4 to the underside of the floor and bolt through that into those blind nuts to thicken the floor section that is holding the bolt.


If it's a big gun safe, I'd check to make sure that your current floor is strong enough to hold that much weight first, it might be too much psi for the floor to handle without possible sagging/damage. I know when I went from a traditional bath tub to an extra deep whirlpool tub in my bathroom, I had to reinforce the floor to handle the extra load. In my case, an additional 3/4" subfloor in that area was sufficient.

 

[bob15]

How heavy is this safe? Will the 2nd floor handle the weight? Can you access the floor joists? Does the safe already come pre-drilled? Can you line up holes in the floor of the safe with the floor joist or do you have to drill the floor out? Are the holes recessed (mine were)? Can you add something permanent to the ceiling that will also make it hard to tip over (more protection against theft)? What size are the floor joist?

For fasteners into wood, I would use TimberLOK bolts. They are stronger than a regular lag bolt and don't need a pilot hole. I would go as long as possible.

https://www.fastenmaster.com/product-details/timberlok-heavy-duty-wood-screw.html

These might be better because they are flusher to the floor: https://www.fastenmaster.com/products/lok-line/headlok-heavy-duty-flathead-fastener.html

 

[Dynasty]

Assuming that if the safe on a second floor it's a gun safe vs a real safe-safe. IMO the mail reason you bolt it down is so the thief cant get it on to the floor or out of the house - either situation makes it very likely that he can physically overpower.

So you want to make sure that the bolts can't be torn out of the subfloor if they try to tilt the safe. If the floor bolts are the only thing to stop tilting I'd want to use large toggle or T bolts.

Yes, it's a gun safe. Specifically a Residential Security Container, not a true high security safe. It weighs about 500 lbs.

I realize it is possible to compromise the safe with proper tools. My primary goal of having it is to keep the average thief out as well as young children. I would like it bolted down so there is no chance of it tipping.

 

[nes999]

Yes, it's a gun safe. Specifically a Residential Security Container, not a true high security safe. It weighs about 500 lbs.

I realize it is possible to compromise the safe with proper tools. My primary goal of having it is to keep the average thief out as well as young children. I would like it bolted down so there is no chance of it tipping.

I used to install aquariums, 500 pounds is nothing on the floor.

Personally I would add either a shelf right above or sort of frame it in so its harder to get tools in/leverage. The name of the game is time. The longer it takes for them to break into or remove the safe the better.

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[Ed Devinney]

Nothing wrong with an RSC. My first one was installed into a space under the stairs where it slid *just* under a beam, so the bolts only had to keep it from being slid out. The new house has a 2nd floor closet built around an RSC. Either could be defeated by a thief with time and the brains to use the tools in my shop, but I think the odds are in my favor.

Safes have a way of getting heavy - 500lb empty will be much more soon, but you're already thinking about that and locating close to a supporting wall.

If you have access underneath you can get creative. I put a lally column in our last house under the safe, but that was in a cellar.

 

[AZ Pete]

The best gun safe is one that doesn't scream gunsafe.
I think they'd be safer tucked under a couch than in a safe.
Safes are targets. Very, specific, targets.


Just an observation.

ha ha, years ago I use to keep my guns tucked into the mattress of a hide-a-bed couch when I was traveling.


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[snorky18]

Best case you might get half of the pre drilled holes to line up with floor joists. You could also drill your own holes in the bottom of the safe, though that might compromise the fire lining if you have one.

I would use the longest structural screws (not lags) you can find that don't poke out the bottom of the floor joists.

Bonus points if you can secure the side of it to wall(s) in multiple locations.

I assume you are probably aware of the compromises of bolting a safe to a wooden floor, but the reality is that might buy you 5 minutes it would take 2 guys with reciprocating saws to cut out the floor around the safe.

Overloading the floor, while not likely, is possible. Depends on distance to nearest load bearing wall below, floor joist size and spacing, safe footprint, and weight of safe + contents (which, if you're like most people, it's probably more than you think).

 

[cpttuna]

Other additional possibilities include a frame over the safe that when locked blocks the safe door from being opened. Several individual wraps of chain around the safe both horizontal and vertical to help secure it.

 

[Dynasty]

What size are the holes in the safe? I would use a combination of spax lags and toggle bolts in the proper size for the holes.

The 4 pre-drill holes in the bottom of the safe are approximately 5/8" in diameter

 

[crguy]

How many times have thieves actually gone to the trouble of moving a gun safe out from a second story location?

 

[Matt Matt]

I've installed a few. Just drill A few holes from the inside. Two into a joist and two into a stud. Pre-drill 1/4 for a 3/8" lag bolt( with washer) that enters the wood a minimum of 2 inches. You will be fine.

 

[YeCats]

Masonary drill bits work awesome on steel, if you need to drill more/different holes

 

[johnnyradiant]

If you have any wiggle room with your fasteners and their holes don't be a perfectionist and put them in plumb. Put each one in on a different angle. Two big as you can into a joist. Two of whatever you can do with the non joist hole. Hilti make some hardware that might be advantageous to the non joist locations. If you can get something of substance through a side into a stud that'd be a bonus.

 

[Firebrick43]

How many times have thieves actually gone to the trouble of moving a gun safe out from a second story location?

I know of one safe of a neighbors that was carried out of an old farmhouse basement with very steep stairs. They didn't get much as it was just the farmers records. The guns were in the open in his shop? Second story you don't have to lift, gravity does the work.

The biggest reason to bolt down is that is very easy to pry open a RSC if you can get it on its back. Maybe mins with a pry bar at most. If you bolt down a safe with the opening edge of door against a wall it pretty difficult.

 

[dw1]

How many times have thieves actually gone to the trouble of moving a gun safe out from a second story location?

Well, this was not a second story location, but I do know a guy that "Had" a 64 Gun-Gun Safe jam packed full of guns sitting in a spare bedroom on the floor, he was working out of town and guess what!! when he found out and they called the police, they had found 6 different sets of footprints in the snow in the front yard, they had backed a truck to the front door and pushed the safe into the truck, he still cant believe that they were able to get it out??

 

[rayra]

toggle bolts for the floor if you don't luck into a joist.
But take the time to find the wall studs and drill new holes thru the back of the RSC to lag it right to the studs. At least 2 if not 3 bolts for each stud.
And cut the floor trim moulding so the safe can sit flush against the wall.

And if you have some leeway in the placement of the safe, try to put it so the open side of the door is near a wall on that side, to hinder any effort to pry the door open.

I've always set the old Homak and Stack-On RSCs in the right end of normal closets with that in mind. Makes it a little inconvenient to use the safe, but that' s an ok tradeoff to me.

 

[dw1]

But did they find the rifle in the hide-a-bed?
As kind of stated a couple of posts above:gun Safes are a great place to keep papers.
The farmer lost no guns.

They're nice to keep a collection that you can open the door for instant admiration, but otherwise they are large preloaded shopping baskets.

Or at least to slow someone down!! I would say that the average person that has a gun safe spent less than $1K on it and can probably be broken into somewhat easily (watch the you tube videos) on my above post, they think it was a "friend" of a friend of his sons but never could prove it, never found any of the guns. They had time and a plan.

 

[toolmiser]

How about "lagging" it to the wall into the studs? I would use some bearings as spacers between the safe and the wall. That way if someone uses a reciprocating saw to cut them it would make it difficult.

 

[mikeyr]

I would find a joist and make sure at least 2 bolts go into that, even if it meant drilling new holes in the safe. Generally on a gun safe the drywall floor just lifts up and 2 new holes would not be seen. Then screws or toggle in the other 2 holes. Then, sorry to say it, at least one lag screw into a wall stud, yes you will have to repair the drywall when you move out but I would not do it any other way. There are many fire barrier putty's you can fill the hole in your safe's drywall that is your fire protection, i used this stuff https://www.grainger.com/product/3M...?breadcrumbCatId=27294&functionCode=P2IDP2PCP

 

[bob15]

The best gun safe is one that doesn't scream gunsafe.
I think they'd be safer tucked under a couch than in a safe.
Safes are targets. Very, specific, targets.

That is great until you go to work, shopping, vacation, etc.

And sorry, some people would need a Paul Bunyan sized couch with that logic. I think I'll still with a Sturdy Safe.

 

[rburke65]

I'd put 480 volts to the side of the safe and call it a day! .... Oh....I'm sorry. Can't do that...��

 

[Pate]

I sell safes and always recommend a safe be put in a corner and bolted in the back and though the side.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Lag or one of those specialty screws if you hit joist. Toggle for the misses. Bolt through back if you can. The idea is to make it inconvenient to move RSC to a more comfortable position for the attack. Legally, most states require safes or equivalent. How about a decoy safe?

Just because a grinder, or sawsall, or a plasma is likely to be used doesnt mean you dont put in the effort.

 

[NUTTSGT]

How many times have thieves actually gone to the trouble of moving a gun safe out from a second story location?

My thoughts as well, unless you live in Timbucktoo with no neighbors.


I'll add this, if you put it on the second story and have a house fire, let the OIC know about it. They can put a water stream in that area to keep it cool and let the interior crew know about it in case of collapse.

 

[scottmoyer]

I don't know if these safes have actually been broken into or not, but the videos make it appear quite difficult for a home safe.

www.steelwatergunsafes.com

There are youtube videos from the owner showing him trying to pry the door open, dropping it from a fork lift, etc. The fire rating is great and it appears to be fairly secure. The average large safe weighs 500#, where the Steelwater safe, of the same size, weighs over 800#. Maybe these are really good!

 

[hangfirew8]

I think the OP's expectations are realistic. When your collection of valuables gets larger than you can hide, you need some place to put it. RSC's deter grab-n-go, first time efforts, and children (really important).

If your house gets burgled and they see the safe, immediately put in a hidden security system. That way you can film their second attempt, when they show up with tools and moving equipment.