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Bonding neutrals form two separate circuits?
- Thread starter rodm1
- Start date
matt151617
Well-known member
Why would you? The grounds are supposed to be tied together.
Speedy Petey
Well-known member
NO! You cannot.
And I'll ask the same question, WHY would you want to???
And I'll ask the same question, WHY would you want to???
awdblazer
Well-known member
this is done all the time in kitchens, run a 3 wire from two breakers and they share the same neutral
matt151617
Well-known member
this is done all the time in kitchens, run a 3 wire from two breakers and they share the same neutral
A shared neutral is a lot different than a bonded neutral. He wants to run 2 seperate line, not one.
Speedy Petey
Well-known member
Apples and oranges to the OP's question.this is done all the time in kitchens, run a 3 wire from two breakers and they share the same neutral
MrMark
Well-known member
Not unless you want the circuit you think you deenergized by turning off the breaker to remain hot, just waiting to kill you or someone else working on the deenergized circuit when someone turns something on on the other circuit.
I've had this exact scenario in my house and was very lucky not to be seriously hurt by it.
When working on a foreign system you almost have to clamp everything to make sure things you think you shut off are in fact off.
I've had this exact scenario in my house and was very lucky not to be seriously hurt by it.
When working on a foreign system you almost have to clamp everything to make sure things you think you shut off are in fact off.
This is not allowed. If you want to run two different circuits to a two gang box, you need to get a box w/ a divider so when working on one, you can't touch the other. This means w/ the divider you can't bond the neutrals.
A good resource when working on DIY projects is the "Code Check" books, usually available at your library. They put the codes (NEC, IRC, etc) in easy to read form for the non-professional
By the way, a neutral is considered a "current carrying conductor", and should be considered live. This is frequently done to carry power in situations like a switch loop where the power enters a light, then leaves and returns via a loop to the switch... or in older 220 circuits where they only used three wires instead of today's four
A good resource when working on DIY projects is the "Code Check" books, usually available at your library. They put the codes (NEC, IRC, etc) in easy to read form for the non-professional
By the way, a neutral is considered a "current carrying conductor", and should be considered live. This is frequently done to carry power in situations like a switch loop where the power enters a light, then leaves and returns via a loop to the switch... or in older 220 circuits where they only used three wires instead of today's four
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Thanks everyone that is what I thought. How do you handle dividing a steel box? I don't think I've ever seen a divider for one.
Could you use the box as a junction box for one of the circuits?
No idea when this whose posted.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110329140056AAZa22Q
Could you use the box as a junction box for one of the circuits?
No idea when this whose posted.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110329140056AAZa22Q
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hidollartoys
Well-known member
I would suggest a "3 wire/ shared neutral with proper breaker" circuit.
'04 Cummins
Well-known member
You are not required to have a divider unless the circuits are of different voltages. As others have said, keep the neutrals separate, but tie all of the grounds together.
As mentioned above, you could run a three-wire branch circuit (shared neutral), but the wires must be landed on adjacent circuit breakers in the panel with a listed breaker tie handle (meaning both circuits on, or both circuits off).
As mentioned above, you could run a three-wire branch circuit (shared neutral), but the wires must be landed on adjacent circuit breakers in the panel with a listed breaker tie handle (meaning both circuits on, or both circuits off).
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lakee911
Well-known member
This is not allowed. If you want to run two different circuits to a two gang box, you need to get a box w/ a divider so when working on one, you can't touch the other. This means w/ the divider you can't bond the neutrals.
Need a box with a divider? Do you have a code reference? I've only seen this for seperating out low voltage stuff (audio, video, etc.).
But for the OP, they should be kept seperate. Depending on wiring, connecting them would could cause troubles with AFCI and GFCI circuits. It's also a violation of 200.4.
rabidsquirrel
Well-known member
Without my code book in front of me, I believe the difference of potential needs to be 300V+. That's why when we do multiple 277V circuits in a switch box we need dividers.
lakee911
Well-known member
Without my code book in front of me, I believe the difference of potential needs to be 300V+. That's why when we do multiple 277V circuits in a switch box we need dividers.
Agreed.
You are not required to have a divider unless the circuits are of different voltages. As others have said, keep the neutrals separate, but tie all of the grounds together.
As mentioned above, you could run a three-wire branch circuit (shared neutral), but the wires must be landed on adjacent circuit breakers in the panel with a listed breaker tie handle (meaning both circuits on, or both circuits off).
If you bonded the neutrals and had the two hot wires on adjacent breakers, wouldn't you effectively get 220 on the neutral? I know they connect breakers on 220 circuits but do they make a connector to tie breakers skipping one in the middle?
Speedy Petey
Well-known member
NO.If you bonded the neutrals and had the two hot wires on adjacent breakers, wouldn't you effectively get 220 on the neutral?
If one neutral were to open you'd get the cumulative amperage on the remaining neutral. Not good.
If both were to open you could possibly get 240v across the hots and any attached loads. Not good.
A good discussion from another forum about this topic.
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f5/bonding-neutral-44961/
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f5/bonding-neutral-44961/
FluxCore
Well-known member
OP, I didn't read the replies but I'll say this:
Go ahead and tie all bares together and route them back to the panel.
For the whites/neutrals, treat them like they are hot and leave each paired with black all the way out and back to the box.....If it leaves the breaker box black n white, then it comes back black n white-one hot and one common all the way from breaker back to box...from there bond whites and bares as needed, then to earth and drop.
Go ahead and tie all bares together and route them back to the panel.
For the whites/neutrals, treat them like they are hot and leave each paired with black all the way out and back to the box.....If it leaves the breaker box black n white, then it comes back black n white-one hot and one common all the way from breaker back to box...from there bond whites and bares as needed, then to earth and drop.
its already been said what you are doing is creating a 220v circuit which is fine for 220v
equipment on a shared receptacle. Not that it wouldnt work, people do it all the time but it isn't the proper way to do it. The nuetral will carries the unbalanced load of the two circuits and this could be dangerous. I've had the fire knocked out of me on jobs where so called electricians have shared the nuetral on multiple circuits...
equipment on a shared receptacle. Not that it wouldnt work, people do it all the time but it isn't the proper way to do it. The nuetral will carries the unbalanced load of the two circuits and this could be dangerous. I've had the fire knocked out of me on jobs where so called electricians have shared the nuetral on multiple circuits...
Speedy Petey
Well-known member
This has nothing to do with "220" circuits. The point is ONLY the neutral assigned to the circuit should be attached to the circuit. The neutral is a current carrying conductor and it must only carry the current from said circuit(s).its already been said what you are doing is creating a 220v circuit which is fine for 220v
equipment on a shared receptacle. Not that it wouldnt work, people do it all the time but it isn't the proper way to do it. The nuetral will carries the unbalanced load of the two circuits and this could be dangerous. I've had the fire knocked out of me on jobs where so called electricians have shared the nuetral on multiple circuits...
jerseywild
Well-known member
You are not required to have a divider unless the circuits are of different voltages. As others have said, keep the neutrals separate, but tie all of the grounds together.
As mentioned above, you could run a three-wire branch circuit (shared neutral), but the wires must be landed on adjacent circuit breakers in the panel with a listed breaker tie handle (meaning both circuits on, or both circuits off).
So you can put two circuits in double gang box? I am working on my plan and would like to do that in a couple of locations.
Speedy Petey
Well-known member
Absolutely.So you can put two circuits in double gang box? I am working on my plan and would like to do that in a couple of locations.