Bought a Wind Turbine

[Tscott]

Versus

All on one graph:

Looks like solar and peak power usage are a good fit, and there are not peaks in the morning/evening, but rather buildup in the waking hours as you'd expect?

Huh, well look at that I guess your graph disproves all the points I have made above. I concede the point, you are right and I am wrong. Have a nice day.

Tom

 

[slopecarver]

BTW....everyone....if the contractor gets all his money, whatever percentage from the power co. or government....whatever...Does he put it in a jar an sit on it?? NO, he dumps it back into the economy whether it be a goddamn power boat or a new install truck or a big *** house....who cares?!! It's going into OUR economy. THAT"S A STIMULUS!!!!! Show me a contractor who gets a pile of money that DOESNT spend it in some fashion or another, and I'll show you some pictures of mythical people of my own...

They spend more than they earn even, I know countless contractors that have filed for bankruptcy.

 

[DSLTRK]

Maybe I missed it, but when the generator(invertor) fails, dies whatever...you don't spend another 60k....you have it rebuilt, right??
So what it the worst case rebuilt cost?? HOw much if the thing dismounted itself and came spiraling to the ground?? Just curious...
I like the whole idea...

BTW....everyone....if the contractor gets all his money, whatever percentage from the power co. or government....whatever...Does he put it in a jar an sit on it?? NO, he dumps it back into the economy whether it be a goddamn power boat or a new install truck or a big *** house....who cares?!! It's going into OUR economy. THAT"S A STIMULUS!!!!! Show me a contractor who gets a pile of money that DOESNT spend it in some fashion or another, and I'll show you some pictures of mythical people of my own...


Thanks.


-T

A major overhaul is estimated to be around 25 years. It includes repainting the blades, replacing the leading edge tape, replacing bearings($125 each). The frame and tower is galvanized, so that should last at least 50 yrs. Inverters have a 10yr warranty and can last 20+ years, as long as they are properly maintained and cleaned. I'd guess at today's costs, around 1-2 thousand to have the turbine rebuilt. And I've never heard of a turbine having a catastrophic failure, these have been known to survive F-5 tornados.

 

[rwhite692]

hmmmm my 94 honda (non hybrid) gets 35 MPG and cost half of the hybrid

That's fine, if you want to drive an eighteen year old honda, 110 miles a day.
(you paid $10,500 for a 94 Honda, brand new out the door, in 1994?)

Me? No thanks.

My 2008 civic cost me 21,500 brand new, out the door (paid cash).

If I only got 35 MPG, compared to my present 41, I would spend an additional $400 a year on gas (using $3.65/Gallon, in this example).

I plan to keep the car for about 10 years total.

The more you drive, the more you save. The additional MPG really comes into play, if you drive a lot of miles.

 

[rwhite692]

As far as the hybrids? I have a 12 year old Jetta diesel which gets up to 50 MPG highway (and averages 43 around town). It doesn't have an electric motor, environmentally destructive battery array's, and wasn't subsidized. These diesels have been getting similar mileage for over 30 years. They weren't hugely successful because people DID NOT WANT THEM. Even today, though sales of more efficient vehicles are up, American's still buy what they want, which often are more powerful (and exciting) vehicles.

Agree!

I am a HUGE fan of diesels as well. I put over 485K miles on a 1982 Datsun SD22 king cab diesel truck that we used for our business. I'd buy another in a heartbeat. Can I buy the equivalent truck today? Nope.

The one thing that you have to keep in mind when calculating your costs, however (and this is especially true out here in CA) is the cost per gallon difference between regular 87 octane gasoline, and Diesel Fuel.

I just filled up my F250 diesel the other day, which was very painful at $4.10 a gallon, out here. Regular gas is a full 50 cents a gallon less expensive. So the impact to the savings hurts. But you do still save a bit, with the diesel. And longevity for the diesel will be greater in terms of total miles you can put on the car until it is "used up".

(example below)

 

[luvit]

Nice turbine setup, there !!
I used to own and climb communication towers for a living and your pics from the top bring back great memories.

 

[6768rogues]

If we are going to get into the politics of it, I disagree when oil company profits are thought to be evil. Anyone who has investments, retirement account or pension probably is an oil company owner. I like profits.
The oil companies make about 10 cents per gallon profit, the government makes about 50 cents per gallon in taxes ( or more, at $4 per gallon our local govt is getting almost 32 cents in sales tax alone) and does none of the work to get us a steady supply of fuel. Who is really ripping us off?

 

[Marshall2u]

These wind systems (or solar, or ANYTHING) should not be as expensive as they are. One VERY important fact to remember about ANYTHING that is subsidized: It becomes more expensive. When an organization (government, insurance, etc.) pays pays for something, demand goes up. When demand goes up, and a check will be written, prices are not based in the free market. You want the perfect example? Lasik eye surgery. Initially it was very expensive. But, since it wasn't subsidized by insurance companies (or the government), the cost quickly went down, while the quality went up. If you can say the same for any other medical procedure (that is covered by medical insurance or emergency room care, I'd like to hear about it). The same principle holds true for every product or service. Market forces are nearly as absolute as scientific principals. If solar and wind were not subsidized, they would IMMEDIATELY become affordable, provided they make sense. They don't make sense if taxpayers have to pay the majority of the load. If that concept seems to obscure, just imagine if EVERY household put one of these one their property in the same year....50K of added tax burden per household....if it doesn't make sense for ALL, it doesn't make sense for ONE. Freedom has it's costs, but I would far prefer to pay those costs as compared to the cost of tyranny.

 

[TommyD]

Saw a news report last night saying that MOST solar panels are made in China and prices under American produced panels. The Chinese vice prez is in the USA and, supposedly, Biden and O'bama are beating on him about subsidies their Gubbermint pays to their factories, totally illegal according to trade agreements. If they don't stop, our Gubbermint is considering slapping Chinese products with tariffs...Ya think it'll ever happen??

 

[TheGunCollector]

Saw a news report last night saying that MOST solar panels are made in China and prices under American produced panels. The Chinese vice prez is in the USA and, supposedly, Biden and O'bama are beating on him about subsidies their Gubbermint pays to their factories, totally illegal according to trade agreements. If they don't stop, our Gubbermint is considering slapping Chinese products with tariffs...Ya think it'll ever happen??

The only thing a tariff will accomplish is hurt our manufacturing base further, while decreasing our disposable income via increased COL.

 

[gatchel]

I love all of the graphs and pretty tables. Keep it coming...

 

[green.bubbly]

Let's do some math.
I'll use my neighbor's wind turbine as an example.
So far, she has generated over 130,000 kWhs of power.

A 5kW generator consumes about 3/4 gallon of fuel an hour under a full load.
For a 5kW generator to produce the equivalent of 130,000 kWhs, it would need to run continuously around 26,000 hours. 26,000 x 3/4 gallon = 19,500 gallons of fuel. At the current rate fuel(87 oct gas) costs, you'd end up spending roughly $69,000, at current rates. Further, this doesn't account for generator maintenance or inflation. And it's using non renewable sources. So there is one of the reasons wind power is chosen over gens.

I think you missed my point. I was simply questioning why a 5kW gas generator that costs 500 bucks suddenly spirals to $60,000 just by putting a propeller on it. Again, over simplified but 60 grand seems like an awfully high price for a 5kW generator with a propeller on it. Maybe the tower cost more than I think???

 

[ranger_dood]

I think you missed my point. I was simply questioning why a 5kW gas generator that costs 500 bucks suddenly spirals to $60,000 just by putting a propeller on it. Again, over simplified but 60 grand seems like an awfully high price for a 5kW generator with a propeller on it. Maybe the tower cost more than I think???

"Over-simplified" doesn't even begin to describe your logic.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I think you missed my point. I was simply questioning why a 5kW gas generator that costs 500 bucks suddenly spirals to $60,000 just by putting a propeller on it. Again, over simplified but 60 grand seems like an awfully high price for a 5kW generator with a propeller on it. Maybe the tower cost more than I think???

Tower, propeller, wiring, control panels, inverters (I guess it makes DC at the generator) and associated components, tie in to the power company (meeting their standards), concrete alone probably ran over $2000 plus rebar and all the excavation.

My wild guess is the propeller alone, being 23 ft and composite, balanced, etc, probably runs $10K to $15K, if not more.

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Inverters have a 10yr warranty and can last 20+ years, as long as they are properly maintained and cleaned.

I assume they have cooling. Set up a regular maintenance program to vacuum/blow out the inverters, keep them clean and inspected for loose connections, etc, and they should last a lifetime.

Charles

 

[DSLTRK]

I think you missed my point. I was simply questioning why a 5kW gas generator that costs 500 bucks suddenly spirals to $60,000 just by putting a propeller on it. Again, over simplified but 60 grand seems like an awfully high price for a 5kW generator with a propeller on it. Maybe the tower cost more than I think???

a 5kW gen with a propeller. Funny stuff. Read posts below yours for better understanding.

 

[proximo]

wicked awesome ........that's great ...........

 

[StumpFJ40]

Great thread! Who knew pics of a wind turbine install would generate such a discussion. I also have to take my hat off to Tscott for acknowledging the facts as they were presented. I learn something every day I come on this board.

BTW, my personal opinion we will see a large number of "Micro-grids" meaning a cooperation of homes in a neighborhood pool their resources to purchase wind turbine(s) which will supply most, if not all their electric needs. Of course, this works best in those locations with plenty of reliable... BUT at the macro level, it will reduce the overall demand on conventional power generators.

 

[tlowery04]

you want pics from the top? I got those. I had a bunch looking down out of the service hatch but i cant find them.

post oak/ mesquite texas

blue canyon oklahoma

 

[tlowery04]

those of you talking about hybrids vs diesels vs high mpg vehicles should take into consideration these are essentially the first generation of high mpg vehicles.

check these out.

How Stuff Works - The UPS Hydraulic Hybrid

The Hydraulic Hybrid - Ford's F-150 Non-Electric Hybrid Project

VW Diesel Electric Hybrid - 260mpg concept car. I know it has a piss poor HP rating but for people that live in cities who don't haul anything and probably don't post here, it would be stellar. And hey, even if the production model, or hey even a VW pickup, were to get into the market, we would probably see a 100+mpg vehicle if not close to it.

and hey, contrary to pricing, diesel is actually cheaper to produce

 

[green.bubbly]

Tower, propeller, wiring, control panels, inverters (I guess it makes DC at the generator) and associated components, tie in to the power company (meeting their standards), concrete alone probably ran over $2000 plus rebar and all the excavation.

My wild guess is the propeller alone, being 23 ft and composite, balanced, etc, probably runs $10K to $15K, if not more.

Charles

Yeah, I guess I underestimated the cost of all the other stuff.

 

[DSLTRK]

you want pics from the top? I got those. I had a bunch looking down out of the service hatch but i cant find them.

blue canyon oklahoma

Very cool! How many mW capacity on that unit?

 

[AndysMBgarage]

Well done for making the investment in a renewable energy source.

Wind power is IMO a sensational way of getting 24/7 power in an economic and reliable way. In Australia domestic wind turbines are rare but solar PV systems have really taken off with one overlooked benefit. As they are fitted to the roofline most exposed to the direct sun they also keep that area in shade which in summer assists in keeping the house cooler. I know it is relative to the roof vs panel size but since we fitted a 2.1kw PV system our housr has been a little cooler in summer plus we generate an average of 10-14kw of electricity per day. [lowest is 8kw/highest is 17kw]
Because we are both at work 5 days a week the electricity meter effectively runs backwards and we sell excess generated power back into the grid. Due to the reflected light we get from the bay PV our outputs are one of the highest per kw of panel used. ATM we buy power at 22c per/kw and sell it at 66c per/kw and as we get our mains gas from the same supplier it pays for our gas bill as well. It also reduces load when everyone fires up their AC in the hottest part of the day.

IMO this is just a part of what should be used a designed into new home construction and it should also be encouraged for renovations as well. My garage has a very high insulation rating which although not heated, is very comfortable on cooler nights once my wife reverses her car in and closes the door. The heat from the engine raises the internal temperature by about 5 deg over ambient temperatures. Our home extension is being designed with thermal mass, cross ventilation, and some passive heating. We already have a solar HWS which gives us free hot water 9 months of the year.

Renewable energy generation, efficient power consuption, clever design and good insulation all adds up, and it is worth considering.

 

[tlowery04]

At Blue canyon they had Vestas V80 1.8 MW turbines. outside Abilene at the Lone Star they have Gamesa G83 and 87 2MW turbines

 

[sixt8bird]

Do you sell power back to your power company by feeding back through your grid? I have heard that some people do this. Just curious?

 

[Falcon67]

Do you sell power back to your power company by feeding back through your grid? I have heard that some people do this. Just curious?

This is usually controlled by the tariff that the utility and the state work out. Varies by region, state and utility. The term is "Net Metering".

This info is out of date for sure, but shows how the regs are all over the map:
http://www.serconline.org/netmetering/stateactivity.html

Here is Texas - at least in the past - the sell back has been at fuel cost, not total cost. Not really "net".

Edit - wish I had a turbine today, wind 20~30 gusts to 40 all day.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

DSLTRK, Does the turbine have some sort of brake on it, to stop it for maintenance? I guess it would just about have to, but that looks like a fixed pitch propeller and stopping it with any amount of wind would present quite a bit of load on both a brake and the tower. Guess you could fold the tail first, that would unload the blades..............

Curious about the maintenance, mechanical aspects of the prop and generator.

Charles

 

[ishiboo]

DSLTRK, Does the turbine have some sort of brake on it, to stop it for maintenance? I guess it would just about have to, but that looks like a fixed pitch propeller and stopping it with any amount of wind would present quite a bit of load on both a brake and the tower. Guess you could fold the tail first, that would unload the blades..............

Curious about the maintenance, mechanical aspects of the prop and generator.

Charles

Stopping it is easy, it's just a big version of this:

 

[PRH44]

Ouch!

 

[DSLTRK]

Do you sell power back to your power company by feeding back through your grid? I have heard that some people do this. Just curious?

No, since the pay rate is something like 3.82 cents per kWh. We opted for the credit, meaning what ever excess power we generate, is credited to our account when the wind isn't blowing. Currently, I have over 1500 kWhs "stored" as credit.
And Falcon67 is correct, we do have a "net meter" that can record every kWh we've produced.

 

[DSLTRK]

DSLTRK, Does the turbine have some sort of brake on it, to stop it for maintenance? I guess it would just about have to, but that looks like a fixed pitch propeller and stopping it with any amount of wind would present quite a bit of load on both a brake and the tower. Guess you could fold the tail first, that would unload the blades..............

Curious about the maintenance, mechanical aspects of the prop and generator.

Charles

Yes, it uses a resistive load to slow and stop the rotor. They are called "diversion loads". They work like a toaster, converting the mechanical energy of the rotor to mild heat. I've tested it in over 60 mph winds and no issues. I does keep the garage warm during winter storms too! I'll see if I can post a picture of the diversion loads tomorrow.

 

[Amazzen]

Awesome project! I've been wanting to do this for years, but my Municipality won't allow it.

I've been looking at natural gas turbines the last 24 months and if Natural Gas prices remain at current low levels, it almost makes me just as excited.

Either way, congrats on the great undertaking and "going green"!

 

[sparky67]

I usually avoid these types of posts but...

The other idea is to reduce the load on the grid where possible.

Actually solar and wind energy is a major problem for the power grid.
The following is a quote from the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) Spectrum magazine January 2012

Eric Wesoff, an industry analyst with Greentech Media, explains why: “A wind farm only works when the blades are spinning. It might have a nameplate capacity of 100 megawatts, but it never puts out that much. Sometimes it’s 70; sometimes it’s nothing. To a grid operator, that kind of resource is a headache rather than an aspirin.” To compensate for solar and wind’s fitfulness, utilities end up building more gas turbines.

The whole story can be found here http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/the-smarter-grid/a-battery-as-big-as-the-grid.
It discusses building huge battery backup sites to help even out the load from renewable resources. Its an interesting read. The sad part is no one has really thought about the total environmental impact of solar or wind energy if they need to use these big battery sites. Batteries use rare earth metals and have a very finite life. And look where they are coming from. The batteries are from Japan, and the sites are designed and installed by a company in Dubai. And what about the rare earth metals and other raw materials to build the batteries? I dont know for sure but a lot of these rare metals are mined in very environmentally damaging ways and causing lots of wars in third world countries.

 

[Privatejoker]

hmmmm my 94 honda (non hybrid) gets 35 MPG and cost half of the hybrid

So, you're saying that your vehicle that couldn't meet modern crash standards or modern emission standards gets less mpg than his vehicle that costs more? That sounds reasonable
I'd hop into a diesel hybrid in a second if honda made one. They did make a CNG civic for a while. Sadly, I can't see myself driving a Volkswagen anything, I just couldn't live with the hipster image.
I'd love to go with a geothermal heat pump setup. I have heard some negatives about them in regards to reliability though, I guess it depends on who you ask. We don't have the subsidies in Kansas like you do in Cali though, so the opportunity cost of putting my money into that is just too high.

 

[HOTFR8]

I already have 12 Solar panels here on one system with two 48 volt batteries that runs the property and feeds excess back into the power grid and will add another 12 panels to that system soon as well as that I have a smaller two panel system that runs my office. I doubt Iwould ever get Council permission to set up a wind generator. So to read what you have done is very interesting.

 

[DSLTRK]

I usually avoid these types of posts but...



Actually solar and wind energy is a major problem for the power grid.
The following is a quote from the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) Spectrum magazine January 2012


The whole story can be found here http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/the-smarter-grid/a-battery-as-big-as-the-grid.
It discusses building huge battery backup sites to help even out the load from renewable resources. Its an interesting read. The sad part is no one has really thought about the total environmental impact of solar or wind energy if they need to use these big battery sites. Batteries use rare earth metals and have a very finite life. And look where they are coming from. The batteries are from Japan, and the sites are designed and installed by a company in Dubai. And what about the rare earth metals and other raw materials to build the batteries? I dont know for sure but a lot of these rare metals are mined in very environmentally damaging ways and causing lots of wars in third world countries.

The grid is subject to varying loads, but it doesn't matter what causes the loads to fluctuate, whether that be RE sources or other loads. These grids are so precisely monitored by computers and other means, it is difficult to imagine unstable loading circumstances that can't be handled.

Further, RE project sites are studied very closely to determine and provide accurate estimates of what power will be generated & when it will be generated, before the site is actually developed.

Currently, our power company sources 20% renewable energy, and I have yet to see a brown out or power outage.

 

[mrgm]

how was your property tax increase becuase of the turbine?

 

[Teken]

how was your property tax increase becuase of the turbine?

That would be a crying shame if he was dinged for doing something that helps not only him, utility, but mother nature . . .

Teken . . .

 

[mrgm]

yea, it would be. That is why I don’t make the outside of my shop all pretty. Neighbors don’t mind either because keeps there property tax in check also.

 

[DSLTRK]

how was your property tax increase becuase of the turbine?

Only went up $25 bucks a year. Not too bad.